Religious Snake-handling

I vote no, if only because the great Darwin, messiah of evolution, would surely frown upon such measures taken to prevent the natural weeding of the gene pool. (May his natural selection guide and protect us to the most suitable mates and his beard grow ever longer)

Illegal, no. But I can't help feeling sorry for the poor snakes,

As long as the snakes are not treated inhumanly--as an adult if you are too stupid to handle a dangerous snake then I don't care if you get bite--then I don't think is should be illegal.

... sure? why not. i'm in general anti-restriction and pro-freedom, so yeah!

Jade Margery said:

I vote no, if only because the great Darwin, messiah of evolution, would surely frown upon such measures taken to prevent the natural weeding of the gene pool. (May his natural selection guide and protect us to the most suitable mates and his beard grow ever longer)

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Are you also, like me, against welfare for similar reasons?

jmverville said:

Are you also, like me, against welfare for similar reasons?

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T'was mostly a sarcastic statement, but to some extent, yes, I agree with you.

I do not think we can, or should, protect people from their own stupidity. That just breeds, well, stupidity. On the other hand, we may consider the difference between society and a state of nature. Society can be defined as a contract of rules, rights, and obligations among individuals, while the state of nature is the opposite of that, the state in which most beasts live.

It has been postulated that unless the lowest citizens in a society are living better than they would in a state of nature, then the society is not as mutually beneficial a contract as it could and should be. In other words, the worth of a society can be measured by the living conditions of its lowest members.

I therefore support certain safety nets and organizations, both privately and publicly funded, that elevate people to more comfortable lifestyles. NOT all of them, however--and almost all of our current systems are pretty messed up, I don't think anyone can deny that.

Even without the much needed overhaul of our policies, when we compare what we spend on welfare with what we spend on defense, well, I'd rather have my tax dollars going to feeding impoverished kids than making bullets and bombs. That's just my personal view on the matter.

Risen Tree said:

Should the practice of religious snake-handling be illegal?

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No.

I'd never do it myself, but the cool thing about snake-handling Christians is that, unlike most of we mainline Protestants, they expect God to actually do something when they call upon God's name in worship.

Gotta admire that.

I've never understood the snake handling bit. Maybe it's the traditional lutheran in me...it all seems a bit odd.

revanneosl said:

I'd never do it myself, but the cool thing about snake-handling Christians is that, unlike most of we mainline Protestants, they expect God to actually do something when they call upon God's name in worship.

Gotta admire that.

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I don't see how deliberately putting yourself in danger and then asking God to come help you is something anyone should admire.

Snake handling is a bold act and indeed it speaks of it in the Bible... Highly symbolically, or one could say, in such a fashion that it speaks of the Lion laying down with the lamb.

It's based off of two new testament passages:

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.​

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I'm sure it would run afoul of the 1st Amendment if it were made illegal for adults. Has a child ever been harmed by snake handling? If so, has a church member ever been charged for it? Unless some state has a law specifically exempting religious ritual, I'm sure most courts today would hold that religious practice is not a defense against child endangerment.

The Church I went to that did it was...interesting.
tulc(VERY interesting)

moonkitty said:

As long as the snakes are not treated inhumanly--as an adult if you are too stupid to handle a dangerous snake then I don't care if you get bite--then I don't think is should be illegal.

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Good thought. But it needs ot be expanded. All laws about importing non-native species also need to be followed. Many of the snake handling groups only use snakes native to their area, but some import more deadly (and often more colorful) snakes to show their greated faith.

Also safety of storage is an issue. After all if a snake gets out of a church it can still bite others.

BTW from few videos I have seen the snakes are often handled in a manner which will cause trauma and eventual death. No intentional gross mistreatment, but still harmful.

jayem said:

I'm sure it would run afoul of the 1st Amendment if it were made illegal for adults. Has a child ever been harmed by snake handling? If so, has a church member ever been charged for it? Unless some state has a law specifically exempting religious ritual, I'm sure most courts today would hold that religious practice is not a defense against child endangerment.

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That never stopped anyone from destroying the second amendment, did it?

I prefer very loimited gov't involvement in the life of its citizens. I understand that is a very unpopular view these days in many circles, but that OK with me.

Snake handling used to be a larger issue in some parts of the US.

I was in a play about it. It comes from the verses:

And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. (Mark 16:17-18)

They handle rattlesnakes, drink cyanide, and demonstrate their faith. They lift up the poisonous snakes as a demonstration of their faith. There is a really great doc about it, where the whole chuch, including kids, are handling the rattlesnakes, throwing them to one another. The Reverend says, "If God wanted the serpent to bite me, he would" and immediately after, the snake strikes. the Reverend had been bitten over 50 times previously. His arm swelled really, really big, and he said to the documenters, "No, don't come to my aid now when you mocked me before."

I felt for the church. People looked upon them as freaks, and if this is what you knew, how you grew up, it would seem normal to you. Speaking in tongues is second nature for me, but brings up huge amounts of protest in followers, quoting that it should only be used when there is an interpreter, that it serves no purpose if you don't understand, that it isn't scriptural, etc.

And what is this terrible thing that I am doing? Allowing the Spirit of God to intercede for me because I don't know what to rightly pray for. Speaking in tongues itself, while unusual, wasn't the scarey possession I thought it would be, and was far more secondary to the very real sense of God's Presence that I had never felt before, a feeling that I had changed a little, that I was suddenly more attune to the spiritual word, and that I really understood that God truly loved me, something that so many people doubt, thinking themselves not good enough for God, thanks to members of the church, probably.

At the same time, it seems like they are asking for trouble, that they are testing God. I think they see it as testing their own faith, but it's like leaping from a building to prove to God that you trust him. Cross the bridge when it comes to it, but don't create danger. Trust in God when danger presents itself.

What was strange about the service was that the snake didn't bite as much as you would think they would. I think they bit our of fear and anger of being thrown around, lifted up, or mishandled. Even a dog will do that.

Should it be legal? Well, people shouldn't be put in jail, certainly. I just think there are far more productive ways to show your faith to God, such as the laying on of hands, praying in earnest for peace in the world, for a healing of the Body of Christ (The Church), for bravery in a world that operates on fear and insecurity and self doubt. It would be far more productive to pray together and ask what we, his servants, can do for his glory, in thanksgiving for the love he grants us without asking anything in return, rather than what God can give us. We should be praying for humililty, to admit that we are sinners, to lower ourselves before others in humbleness, instead of implying that we are above others, or without sin, or worse, deserve God's love and salvation, implying that others don't until they meet our approval and standards.

I never really was an "The End is Near" kind of person, but I do believe that signs are going to begin appearing quite frequently now, and if being able to handle a serpent is one of them, do you have the faith to do it? Do you trust the Scripture and God enough, were you in a situation where you HAD TO handle it?

I don't have that much faith in myself.

One of the things that I remember from the Assembly of God churches, when I went there, was that there seemed to be almost of sense of a show. People were excited to see God in action, almost like they were hoping to be entertained. They wanted to see people Slain in the Spirit, or prophesying, or someone's leg healed before their eyes. I understand it. People in my Lutheran Church, the Frozen Chosen, seemed to worship God like a duty, an obligation, rather than anything that was exciting, personal, deeply spiritual or moving.

I think there is medium ground, however.

If you're 18+ and foolish enough to use snakes as some kind of test of faith then yes, by all means, handle snakes - though of course I would expect the church to sign some kind of contract in advance offering full payment of any medical bills accrued before they taught or encouraged the practice. I do think church/religious leaders should be held accountable for the results of their teachings, aka charged with murder if a handler dies of venomous bites, or forced to cover all medical treatment after an accident, but I do suppose of a church wants to encourage this, an adult can opt in if they wish. For minors, I do think religious snake handling should be illegal and the parents charged with abuse. It's one thing to have a non-poisonous snake in your home as a pet and quite another for a child to carry around an agitated, defensive snake and pretend it has something to do with God.