Change to the Appeals process, changes to Staff and a few other things

psalms 91 · Jul 7, 2009

I have nothing in thios personally other than a poster on another christian board that told me an advisor ban was unappealable and that is just not how I read what has been posted so far nor do I think it is fair ro anyone to take such a drastic step as banning and not being able to appeal it. I also again stress that mercy and grace are sadly lacki9ng most times and that is what Jesus was all about. It is His mercy and grace that keeps us all and as was pointed out we should all be able to be held accountable.

CaliforniaJosiah · Jul 7, 2009

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There's a difference in Staff being seen (by self or others or both) as facilitators and counselors, or as secret police. A service or a power/authority/control thing. I think you can tell if a Staffer sees himself as a minister or as someone in an honored position of power and authority (um, above you).

IMHO, and in MY experience on staff, the personel are rarely the problem. (I said rarely - not always, lol). The mods I encountered - while fallible and each on their own learning curve - were, as a whole, amazingly willing and wanted to be fair, balanced and just. But the PROCESS tended to encourage something significantly different than the attitude conveyed in Scripture (Gal. 6:1-2, Eph. 4:2-3 immediately pop into my mind) and not the process suggested by Jesus in Matthew 18:15 ff. I was told the reason for this is the SIZE of CF, such an attitude and process just isn't practical. Well, CF is a LOT smaller now....

Well, I've always believed that attitude and heart are more important than structures and processes, and Staff tends to shine in that department. We just need to not let exceptions undermine that. We need to constantly check that 'tude vis-a-vis what Jesus and Scriptures convey. I remember, when I was a mod in GT, there were a small handful that were, well, a handful. It's easy to let that mold that 'tude to, well, not the New Self.

I've been posting (WAY too much) in Christian websites since I was 11. All until here were teen sites, and all were MUCH smaller. There, the Staff got to know me. Know my heart. I can remember (rather vividly) once when the owner's wife PM'ed me and said, in essence, "Josiah, today I read where you posted this (and then she quoted me, verbatim). Josiah, I KNOW you don't mean that. It's just not you. Would you mind editing that?" Jeeze, I was totally embarrassed, I edited the post and sent a PM to apologize to the one I was responding to. See, but she knew me and I knew her. There was no "YOU BAD, STUPID IDIOT!" There was no police action. There were no threats. I think sometimes ALL of us fall short. Maybe we hit the "submit" key too quickly, maybe passion gets the best of us, well.... you know. It doesn't make us BAD people. But, I've been on the other side. I know, occasionally, there are jerks. AND it happens with Staff, too. Maybe they are too quick to assume, too willing to be certain they know what was meant, maybe a bit harsh. Not because they are BAD staffers, it's just there's a lot of work to do, a lot of Reports....

At our Fourth of July thing at my parents, my brother also came home for the event. He told me he had been to a concert, and things got kinda bad. He was actually trying to get out of that situation when a cop began to arrest him (causing my bro's heart to start really pumping!). The cop was pretty much in his face, VERY intimidating (and, as my borther told this, I could tell that intimidation WORKED). Anyway, he finally got a chance to explain himself. And the cop actually apologized!!!!!!! He apologized to my brother (my respect for police went up a few notches as he told me that). Hey, life.

Anyway, YES, Scripture sets out the attitude of humility, love and helpfulness/service that is required when wrong is suspected. And Jesus DID set out the process; it's right there in Matthew 18:15 ff. The 'tude is the hard part. Fortunately, here at CF, it's the part that needs the least amount of work. IMHO.

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Tishri1 · Jul 7, 2009

BelindaP said:
My RT thread was closed for review and never reopened. Since I was banned, I couldn't even send a PM to ask what was up. Eventually, it just disappeared. Let's hope that the Advisors really mean it when they say the RT will be focusing on member service.

I will look and see what happened and PM you

RoseyK · Jul 7, 2009

bill16652 said:
I have nothing in this personally other than a poster on another christian board that told me an advisor ban was unappealable and that is just not how I read what has been posted so far nor do I think it is fair for anyone to take such a drastic step as banning and not being able to appeal it. I also again stress that mercy and grace are sadly lacki9ng most times and that is what Jesus was all about. It is His mercy and grace that keeps us all and as was pointed out we should all be able to be held accountable.

I heard this also. That this particular person had no way of appealing the decision and hearing that really bothered me.

CaDan · Jul 7, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
It's a little harder in an online community, though. I would totally feel comfortable emailing you personally and saying "hey, your posts here violates the rules, you should probably edit it". I probably have at some point in time, too.

That comfort level extends to most posters here. But it doesn't mean I PM everyone before their post is reported. For one, I'm fairly certain that some posters wouldn't take the PM in the spirit that it was sent. For another, it'd be pretty hard to PM everyone before their post is reported.

It IS part of the reason that we instituted the counseling PM before issuing a warning.

I tend to agree. The moderation tools are pretty blunt instruments and vBulletin just hands them to admins without considering how they will be used.

What bedevils CF and a lot of sites is that no one has really thought through the question of "why are we moderating; what is the purpose of moderation?" That's not intended as a barb in any way--it is just my observation after moderating at several boards.

PreachersWife2004 · Jul 7, 2009

CaDan said:
I tend to agree. The moderation tools are pretty blunt instruments and vBulletin just hands them to admins without considering how they will be used.

What bedevils CF and a lot of sites is that no one has really thought through the question of "why are we moderating; what is the purpose of moderation?" That's not intended as a barb in any way--it is just my observation after moderating at several boards.

I do get what you're saying here and it makes sense. There are days that I feel like all I've done is police a forum. I once told my husband that I was trolling for violations (trolling being used in the fishing sense). I don't like feeling that way.

So...let me ask you this then: what do YOU think we're here (as moderators) for?

CaDan · Jul 7, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
I do get what you're saying here and it makes sense. There are days that I feel like all I've done is police a forum. I once told my husband that I was trolling for violations (trolling being used in the fishing sense). I don't like feeling that way.

So...let me ask you this then: what do YOU think we're here (as moderators) for?

I don't know. I didn't know when I was on Staff, either.

It was a problem.

Arch Emerging · Jul 8, 2009

BelindaP · Jul 8, 2009

Tishri1 said:
I will look and see what happened and PM you

Thanks.

ravenscape · Jul 8, 2009

Tonks said:
I'm not sure that this is entirely helpful, PW.

Contact Us always works, too, and we check that daily.

This is my first post in months.

Thank you for that, Tonks. It's refreshing to read. Gives me hope that reform where it is really needed at CF might yet be possible.

/relurking

kiwimac · Jul 8, 2009

>uncloaks< Yay Raven! >recloaks<

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 8, 2009

RoseyK said:
I heard this also. That this particular person had no way of appealing the decision and hearing that really bothered me.

What I want to know is why is a ban effective within a few minutes of a staff action being giving? My last ban was so abrupt and quick after I got reported by a poster I didn't have time to blink....

blessedmomof5 · Jul 8, 2009

Amen, well said, now lets hope this does not get over looked as usual :prayer:

bill16652 said:
I have nothing in thios personally other than a poster on another christian board that told me an advisor ban was unappealable and that is just not how I read what has been posted so far nor do I think it is fair ro anyone to take such a drastic step as banning and not being able to appeal it. I also again stress that mercy and grace are sadly lacki9ng most times and that is what Jesus was all about. It is His mercy and grace that keeps us all and as was pointed out we should all be able to be held accountable.

Catherineanne · Jul 9, 2009

PreachersWife2004 said:
So...let me ask you this then: what do YOU think we're here (as moderators) for?

Imho, it is in the name.

It is to ensure that the very strident squeals of the outraged minority are not taken as the voice of reason.

Every single time I have received a warning on this forum, and it has happened more times than I can count, it is because someone could not reason against my point of view, so chose to regard it as flaming, trolling, debating etc etc. Anything they could. Even posts very firmly grounded in Scripture get reported as blasphemous, unScriptural etc.

Once this starts the pattern is to report post after post until something sticks.

This is a perceptible pattern. I can go months without any problem, then get ten posts reported in a week, and am very lucky not to end up banned for a week.

And there is one part of this Forum where I made thoroughly fellowship posts, all in good spirit, and got accused of all sorts of heinous stuff. I tried to say, hang on, that is not what I am doing, I am being friendly, and then those got reported as well, as debating. Even a smiley gets called a taunt, or a sneer. A couple of warnings later and I receive PMs from members of that congregation, telling me of a fragile member of their community, who picks fights with everyone, but who they all feel they have to defend, because he is one of their 'family'. They apologised, but the damage (to me) had already been done.

Ditto another part, where 19 out of 20 people are friendly and welcoming, but it only takes one to take gratuitous offence, and a warning is issued, apparently for not being a member of that congregation and daring to come along and say 'hi'. Actually, I will say where it was. I got a warning for saying in the OBOB area that I am a Catholic, but not a Roman Catholic (I am Anglo Catholic or Anglican). Apparently to one person, that constituted debating against Roman Catholicism and the rules of that part of the Forum, which say all Catholics are Roman Catholics, and a moderator agreed.

Imo, what is needed is temperance, moderation, and a middle ground.

Edit: I have been informed in PM that my post may be reported as criticising staff. I have decided not to edit it, in spite of this, because this thread is, I hope, about a frank exchange of experiences. However, I ought to point out that my intention is not to criticise staff or anyone else. It cannot be possible for them to look at the context of every report. What I would hope for, however, is for common sense to prevail. If a thread about names for God on WWMC is written in a devout and respectful fashion, then one troll from outside calling it blasphemous ought not to result in the thread being permanently closed. That is surely a reasonable expectation.

Meanwhile, any Christian ought to be able to visit and share fellowship with any area of the forum without being chased away by the regulars. Utopian, maybe, but surely worth aiming for.

Bombila · Jul 9, 2009

Catherineanne has raised a serious point.

Are people who report posts out of spite, or because they are particularly thin-skinned, or have a personal agenda ever counselled by staff? There's no evidence of that happening.

drstevej · Jul 9, 2009

Bombila said:
Catherineanne has raised a serious point.

Are people who report posts out of spite, or because they are particularly thin-skinned, or have a personal agenda ever counselled by staff? There's no evidence of that happening.

Yes. But it is via PM so it is not visible to others.

Davidnic · Jul 9, 2009

drstevej said:
Yes. But it is via PM so it is not visible to others.

Yep. It is very common. Normally staff is getting it from both ends. Someone is pushing someone or an agenda. Someone responds with a response that is outside of the rules. Staff has action against the person who responded in the unacceptable manner (because they are responsible for their actions and it has been reported by multiple people) and also has action with the person who is pushing an agenda or spite reporting.

In my experience we generally tried to deal with the person who was spite reporting or who was goading people. Unless the person who responded to the goading did so in such a manner that it could not be ignored.

I remember multiple times when we looked at how someone pushed someone into a response and the action was against the one who pushed and not the one who responded. Now if the response was reported by multiple people outside of the one starting it...then that is an indication that the response is indeed far outside the rules.

But most of it is not a visible thing. We did keep track of spite reporting and staff does act on it. But ultimately just because person A is wrong in making or pushing the situation that does not mean person B is justified in a response outside of the rules.

Not citing a specific case, just talking in general.

Now, there are times when an entire atmosphere is poisoned and people's responses are a function of a toxic environment. That can happen and is considered.

drstevej · Jul 9, 2009

Davidnic said:
Yep. It is very common. Normally staff is getting it from both ends. Someone is pushing someone or an agenda. Someone responds with a response that is outside of the rules. Staff has action against the person who responded in the unacceptable manner (because they are responsible for their actions and it has been reported by multiple people) and also has action with the person who is pushing an agenda or spite reporting.

In my experience we generally tried to deal with the person who was spite reporting or who was goading people. Unless the person who responded to the goading did so in such a manner that it could not be ignored.

I remember multiple times when we looked at how someone pushed someone into a response and the action was against the one who pushed and not the one who responded. Now if the response was reported by multiple people outside of the one starting it...then that is an indication that the response is indeed far outside the rules.

But most of it is not a visible thing. We did keep track of spite reporting and staff does act on it. But ultimately just because person A is wrong in making or pushing the situation that does not mean person B is justified in a response outside of the rules.

Not citing a specific case, just talking in general.

Now, there are times when an entire atmosphere is poisoned and people's responses are a function of a toxic environment. That can happen and is considered.

You did a great job on staff. We miss your wisdom.

Davidnic · Jul 9, 2009

drstevej said:
You did a great job on staff. We miss your wisdom.

Wisdom is free if anyone ever needs and confidentiality allows.

I just mastered the wisdom of having the clean diaper ready before taking the first one away.

I was doing it the right the first 99 times but it only takes once to remember why we do it that way.

Seriously I am always here for anyone as time, determined by wife and new child, allows.

MariaRegina · Jul 9, 2009

Davidnic said:
Wisdom is free if anyone ever needs and confidentiality allows.

I just mastered the wisdom of having the clean diaper ready before taking the first one away. I was doing it the right the first 99 times but it only takes once to remember why we do it that way. . . .

When my son was a newborn, once when I forgot that clean diaper, I got it in the face. That woke me up.

My husband also had a similar experience. I guess that teaches one to endure any kind of insult.

Wait until they cover the walls with crayons and unspeakable stuff.

Back on subject --

Tonks,

In line with the vision of Pauler, what are the real obligations and mission for the staff at CF?

Some people view staff as work horses who police the forum and action reports. However, after reading the Vision Statement, I think Pauler is thinking along other lines. Could you kindly elaborate?

Thanks.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

Change to the Appeals process, changes to Staff and a few other things

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