Ex Nihilo and Thermodynamics

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  • YES

  • NO


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Ectezus

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Gotta love these polls...

Is water wet or dry, please vote.

*sigh*

The concept of Ex nihilo creation has never been proven, observed or has any working theory.
The law of conservation of energy on the other hand is rock solid.

As for the poll question, I voted for "No, not necessarily" because it's possible that we're in a multiverse where energy can possibly flow between universes. It would look like ex nihilo to us but won't be in reality because the other universe lost some of that energy.

I really don't get this fascination with ex nihilo. It borders close to being a fetish...

- Ectezus
 
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ragarth

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Gotta love these polls...

Is water wet or dry, please vote.

*sigh*

The concept of Ex nihilo creation has never been proven, observed or has any working theory.
The law of conservation of energy on the other hand is rock solid.

As for the poll question, I voted for "No, not necessarily" because it's possible that we're in a multiverse where energy can possibly flow between universes. It would look like ex nihilo to us but won't be in reality because the other universe lost some of that energy.

I really don't get this fascination with ex nihilo. It borders close to being a fetish...

- Ectezus

But if the energy flows from another universe, then it's not ex nihilo. Further, if energy can move between universes, that implies interaction between the two, and where there's interaction there's the potential for measurement and discovery so it's silly to make the argument 'but we may never know!'.
 
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Ectezus

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But if the energy flows from another universe, then it's not ex nihilo.

And how could you tell the difference?
You couldn't. So it would look like ex nihilo to us humans while in fact it might just be ex materia. (Psst, that's the whole point....)


Further, if energy can move between universes, that implies interaction between the two, and where there's interaction there's the potential for measurement and discovery so it's silly to make the argument 'but we may never know!'.

While a mutual interaction does seem most logical, that by no means automatically excludes the other possibilities. I'm not a big fan of the concept of a multiverse but at least it has some roots in quantum physics afaik. Ex nihilo creation on the other hand, as I've already said before, doesn't have anything tangible going for them. Just a dusty old book that has been rewritten and re-translated numerous times.

If AV brings up a hypothetical scenario, I'm giving him my hypothetical counter.
Both are unlikely, both are probably always non-falsifiable. Mine just defeats his.

- Ectezus
 
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Hespera

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I really don't get this fascination with ex nihilo. It borders close to being a fetish...

- Ectezus


I think the idea is to maneuver them scientists into proving / accepting proof of the existence of god. That would be worth some effort, from a certain pov anyhow.
 
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Belk

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If an object came into existence ex nihilo, would that violate any of the 4 laws of thermodynamics?

For the record, let's leave the Bible out of this and talk pure science.

Explain the mechanism by which something is created ex nihilo and I will let you know.
 
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pgp_protector

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If an object came into existence ex nihilo, would that violate any of the 4 laws of thermodynamics?

For the record, let's leave the Bible out of this and talk pure science.

QV
 
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Darkness27

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If something came from nothing than yes, it would be a violation of the conservation of mass/energy, but that law is being violated all the time according to modern quantum mechanics. At the sub-atomic level and lower weird things happen that violate this basic principle. Although it is important to note that on a chemical level the law is valid, like when doing chemical equations. The only simple example I can think of is virtual particles; particles that are required for modern quantum mechanics to work and they pop in and out of existence all the time.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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If something came from nothing than yes, it would be a violation of the conservation of mass/energy, but that law is being violated all the time according to modern quantum mechanics. At the sub-atomic level and lower weird things happen that violate this basic principle. Although it is important to note that on a chemical level the law is valid, like when doing chemical equations. The only simple example I can think of is virtual particles; particles that are required for modern quantum mechanics to work and they pop in and out of existence all the time.
Virtual particles don't necessarily violate the conservation of energy; the 'positive' energy might be negated by 'negative' energy.

I like to think of the positive mass cancelling out the negative gravitational potential.
 
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AV1611VET

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The only simple example I can think of is virtual particles; particles that are required for modern quantum mechanics to work and they pop in and out of existence all the time.
If I understand virtual particles correctly, they aren't really virtual --- they're real.

Each particle has mass the equivalent of MC[sup]2[/sup] --- it just doesn't have enough "oomph" to remain a particle and quickly dissipates.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but matter is nothing more than energy in solid form?

IOW, matter is to energy what ice is to water?
 
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Ectezus

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but matter is nothing more than energy in solid form?
That's the idea yeah. Atoms, greek for uncuttable, are also made out of subatomic particles/quarks and those are made out of energy and such.

It really isn't all that weird when you think about it. Everything is energy. Little vibrating strands of energy. Its not really that much different than knowing your body is made entirely out of non-living atoms is it?

IOW, matter is to energy what ice is to water?
Personally I'm not a big fan of the oversimplified analogies but I'd say it's more a case of watervapor (energy) and ice (matter).

An extremely small loss of mass in a nuclear reaction results in enormous amounts of energy. In effect it also takes a lot of 'watervapor' to create 'ice'.

- Ectezus
 
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AV1611VET

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* More votes, please -- let's go! *

If an object came into existence ex nihilo, would that violate any of the 4 laws of thermodynamics?

For the record, let's leave the Bible out of this and talk pure science.
 
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BananaSlug

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God is omnipotent and has unlimited energy. Thermodynamics is conserved because the energy present was unlimited to begin with. See my thread on answering questions about creationism, which people strangely stopped posting in.
 
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AV1611VET

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God is omnipotent and has unlimited energy. Thermodynamics is conserved because the energy present was unlimited to begin with. See my thread on answering questions about creationism, which people strangely stopped posting in.
I reiterate:
If an object came into existence ex nihilo, would that violate any of the 4 laws of thermodynamics?

For the record, let's leave the Bible out of this and talk pure science.
Feel free to vote while you're at it, please.
 
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