Does one need to be baptized in order to be saved?

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ARBITER01

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Did you even read my post? I showed you how it is gramatically imposible for all 120 to have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. Did you disprove that by your comment? Absoultly not. Just saying something is true does not make it true.

You really didn't do anything.

Here is what scripture says,..

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was now come, they were all together in one place.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound as of the rushing of a mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.


Ok, who is they here?,...

Act 1:15 And in these days Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren, and said (and there was a multitude of persons gathered together, about a hundred and twenty),

From that point onward, there is nothing to say that only the apostles had received The Holy Spirit at pentecost, nor is there anything in scripture that says the amount of folks diminished at some point.

So 120 it is.

I'm not sure why this is a stumbling point with you, but if you are concerned with this as much as you are concerned with water immersion, then I don't think you will truly reach this point Jesus commands us to reach,..

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

I advocate that anyone who is really wanting to know the truth about these issues, to carefully seek GOD for their answers instead of relying upon anyone on a message board. GOD is more than able to answer each of us and show us what we need to understand HIS truth. That goes for any aspect in our bible.

We have no need for dependency on man when GOD is more than willing to show us an absolute.
 
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mikev

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We cannot assume that every time the word “baptize” is used it is referring to water.

John the Baptist, an excellent authority on the subject, said, “I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”

Jesus himself said, (speaking of something coming in the very near future), “John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

On the day of Pentecost, recorded in Acts 2, Peter said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

The record goes on to say that they gladly received his word and were baptized. It doesn’t say "in or with water." Again, every time the word “baptize” is used it does not mean water.

And one more to consider:

It is very interesting when you read Acts 10 and 11, and read it carefully, you will see that Peter wanted to do water baptism at Cornelius’ house.

In chapter 11, recounting those events, he tells why he didn’t water baptize them. “Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
 
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cougan

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You really didn't do anything.

Here is what scripture says,..




Ok, who is they here?,...



From that point onward, there is nothing to say that only the apostles had received The Holy Spirit at pentecost, nor is there anything in scripture that says the amount of folks diminished at some point.

So 120 it is.

I'm not sure why this is a stumbling point with you, but if you are concerned with this as much as you are concerned with water immersion, then I don't think you will truly reach this point Jesus commands us to reach,..



I advocate that anyone who is really wanting to know the truth about these issues, to carefully seek GOD for their answers instead of relying upon anyone on a message board. GOD is more than able to answer each of us and show us what we need to understand HIS truth. That goes for any aspect in our bible.

We have no need for dependency on man when GOD is more than willing to show us an absolute.

You keep wanting to go all the way back to verse 15, but you cannot do that and be grammatically correct. They in Acts 2:1 refers back to the apostles in Acts 1:26. You need to remember that in the orignal text there is no chapter and verses and there is no divison between our 1:26 and 2:1. You need to read these two verses together. When you do it it becomes clear that they are the apostles, which agrees with the following grammer rule:

A word or phrase to which a pronoun (such as “they”) refers can be
found by looking back to the nearest noun or pronoun with which it agrees in
number, etc.

In our case, the pronoun “they” in 2:1 clearly refers back to the noun “apostles”​
in 1:26 -
[FONT=Arial,Italic]not [/FONT]to the 120 disciples way back in 1:15!

I am not ask you to depend on me for anything. I am just trying to show basic grammar rules that proves that they cannot refer to the 120.
 
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cougan

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We cannot assume that every time the word “baptize” is used it is referring to water.

John the Baptist, an excellent authority on the subject, said, “I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.”

Jesus himself said, (speaking of something coming in the very near future), “John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

On the day of Pentecost, recorded in Acts 2, Peter said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

The record goes on to say that they gladly received his word and were baptized. It doesn’t say "in or with water." Again, every time the word “baptize” is used it does not mean water.

And one more to consider:

It is very interesting when you read Acts 10 and 11, and read it carefully, you will see that Peter wanted to do water baptism at Cornelius’ house.

In chapter 11, recounting those events, he tells why he didn’t water baptize them. “Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Yes, the word baptism does not always mean water baptism. Besides HS baptism it also used to to refer to being baptized in to suffering. We must look at the context to figure out what kind of baptism is being talked about.

Will you at least agree with me that baptism is neccessary to be saved as Jesus said in:

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Will agree that there is only one baptism that saves according to Paul:

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

To me the passages clearly teach baptism saves and that there is only one that saves. Do you agree or disagree. (right now I am not concerned about, which baptism saves, we can discuss which one if you agree that there is only one baptism that saves.)
 
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C. Davis

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We are saved by faith without works [Eph 2:8-9], even without "righteous works" such as baptism [Titus 3:5].

The thief on the cross [Luke 23:43] backs this up.

Old testament saints were also saved without works [Romans 4:1-5]

Water baptism has a small similarity to circumcision was in the OT. Circumcision was a sign of the righteousness of faith [Rom 4:10-12], but it was not the faith.

Baptism in the NT is used in many ways [water, Spirit, John's, etc.]. We need to be 100% sure of the context or we will be led astray.

Although baptism is used in many ways, it ALWAYS proclaims a connection between two things.

Water baptism proclaims that a person, through faith, accepts Christ as Saviour. It's not the baptism that saves, it's what the baptism proclaims that saves. Consider Acts 2:38 in light of the following example: Before the battle of the Alamo, a line was drawn in the sand and men who were willing to stay and fight were told to identify themselves by crossing that line. Therefore, if someone crossed that line, they were signifying what was in their heart [that they were willing to fight]. If someone said, "Joe, please cross the line", it was understood that what was meant was, "Joe please commit to fighting with us". Water baptism in the NT is the sign of one joining Christ by faith. Therefore, when Peter declares "be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" it was understood by all at the time that it was just another way of saying "repent and accept Christ."

If water baptism saves, why would Paul be thankful for not taking part in other's salvation? [1 Cor 14-17]? If baptism and salvation were synomonous, why does Paul declare that he was not sent to baptize [vs. 17]? Are we to believe that he was sent to preach a gospel message that baptism saves while not concerning himself with the baptisms?

To sum it up: Make sure the scripture your learning from is actually water baptism, not Spirit baptism [like Eph 4:5], and make no mistake, salvation is received by faith, PLUS NOTHING. Works & baptism come AFTER salvation, never before. They are a fruit of salvation.


Chuck
 
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cougan

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I can't find anywhere where Christ says that unless we are put into water that we don't get in Heaven.

I will answer C. Davis post later even though I have already dealt with most of what he has presented in my previous posts.

I am going to give you 3 verses from Jesus that prove that we must be baptized to be saved and the baptism that does this is water baptism.

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Jesus says that we believe and be baptized to be saved. You cannot separate believes and baptized because they are forever joined by the coordinating conjunction and. From the Greek these two words are considered to be equal and they must occur before the leading verb, which is be saved. Clearly Jesus says that belief and baptism are necessary to be saved.

Some try to jump to the second part of this verse and say baptism must not be included because Jesus only says not believing will save you. First, the second part of this verse cannot null the grammar of the first part. Second, all Jesus had to say that not believing will condemn you because if you will not believe, then you will not do anything else such as repent, confess Jesus as Lord, or be baptized.

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Jesus has all the authority and He is commanding that his disciples make more disciples by baptizing them into the possession of the Godhead. Since Jesus is commanding his disciples to carry out the baptism mentioned here it would have to be something that they can do, which eliminates Holy Spirit baptism because Holy Spirit baptism was a promise and was something Jesus would do. Therefore, that leaves us water baptism, which is something that man can do.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus makes it clear to Nicodemus that if he wants to enter the kingdom of God, which is necessary to enter heaven, then he must be born of water and the spirit. Jesus is not talking about two births here but one. We learn from the Spirit of God through the Word of God how to be saved and we can know that when we are baptized in water that our oldself is being buried with Christ and that we are be born again as we are raised up out of the water.

There is no way that you can take the water out of this passage because the Greek word behind water is only used for water.

So there you have it, the verses you have been looking for and these were just the ones that are in red letters. Just look at the conversions in the book of acts and you will see that two things are always mentions they believed and they were baptized. We can see that it water that was used. Water baptism was used with the eunuch in Acts 8, Peter called for water to baptize Cornelius’s household in Acts 10, water baptism is certainly implied with the conversion of the jailor in Acts 16. The word wash away your sins was applied to Paul in Acts 22:16, by the way Paul would not have arise and get himself baptized if it was Holy Spirit baptism that saves. You cannot miss what Peter said in 1 Pet. 3:20-21 as he draws a parallel between the water that saved Noah and family by separating them from the wicked and the baptism that saves, which is water baptism that also separates us from the wicked. No baptism is not a bath where you scrub up and wash the outside of your body clean, it is simply the place that God says you will come in contact with the blood of Christ and will be united with per Rom. 6. and Col. 2:12ff makes it clear that is our faith in the working of God that can know that baptism saves us.
 
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cougan

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We are saved by faith without works [Eph 2:8-9], even without "righteous works" such as baptism [Titus 3:5].

Eph. 2:8-9 does not say we are saved by faith ALONE. In fact the only time you will find faith only mentioned is when contradicts what you trying to say:

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You fail to understand that there are works of merit and works of obedience. We can never earn our salvation, but God demands obedient works. When we do obedient works it done accept God saving grace, but we must understand even when we do these obedient works that we can never earn our salvation.


The thief on the cross [Luke 23:43] backs this up.

Please see my previous post where I show how the thief on the cross cannot serve as example for us today.

Old testament saints were also saved without works [Romans 4:1-5]

The passage you give is another example of the different between works of merit and works of obedience. Until you understand that you will continue to be confused by passages such as these. Watch I will show a couple of passages that teach that Abraham had to have an obedient faith:

Genesis 22:18 "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Genesis 26:4 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Notice, the promise God made to bless all nations was not given until Abraham obeyed. He also justified by works (obedient works not works of merit) when offered his son up. When it says that Abraham believed in God we can see that it is talking about an obedient faith and not belief alone that was accounted to him for righteousness.

By the way if you are going to exclude baptism because it is a work of God Col. 2:12 then you are going to have to exclude faith in God because it a work of God Jn. 6:29. You cannot have it both ways.

Water baptism has a small similarity to circumcision was in the OT. Circumcision was a sign of the righteousness of faith [Rom 4:10-12], but it was not the faith.

The O.T. circumcision was physical and if you were circumcised then you would be kicked out of the camp. It was mandatory and you could not be considered a child of God or partake of the Passover without it.

In a similar way, under the N.T. baptism makes the difference of being in Christ or out of Christ Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:3. It is a spiritual circumcision done to both males and females. Without it you cannot be a child of God, and you should not be allowed to partake of the Lord’s Supper with out it.

Baptism in the NT is used in many ways [water, Spirit, John's, etc.]. We need to be 100% sure of the context or we will be led astray.

I agree

Although baptism is used in many ways, it ALWAYS proclaims a connection between two things.

Water baptism proclaims that a person, through faith, accepts Christ as Saviour. It's not the baptism that saves, it's what the baptism proclaims that saves. Consider Acts 2:38 in light of the following example: Before the battle of the Alamo, a line was drawn in the sand and men who were willing to stay and fight were told to identify themselves by crossing that line. Therefore, if someone crossed that line, they were signifying what was in their heart [that they were willing to fight]. If someone said, "Joe, please cross the line", it was understood that what was meant was, "Joe please commit to fighting with us". Water baptism in the NT is the sign of one joining Christ by faith. Therefore, when Peter declares "be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" it was understood by all at the time that it was just another way of saying "repent and accept Christ."


Your analogy is lacking. You make it sound like you have to have audience to see your baptism, but as with the eunuch, two people are plenty. The one baptizing you is just helping you under the water and out of the water, but everything else that happens to at the point of baptism is done by your faith in the working of God. You are right that the water itself does nothing, it all about believing that God will do those things He has promised you when you submit to command to be baptized. You can know that you are being buried with Christ, crucified with having you old man put to death and you can that you are being raised alive, born again having been washed by the power of Jesus’ blood and that you have been added to the church by God Acts 2:47; 1 Cor. 12:13.

You say its just another way of saying repent and accept Christ, but that is not true because Peter said that you must repent AND be baptized for the forgiveness of sin. Baptism cannot be another expression of repentance because repentance is already named and the and indicates that something else is to be done, which is baptism.


If water baptism saves, why would Paul be thankful for not taking part in other's salvation? [1 Cor 14-17]? If baptism and salvation were synomonous, why does Paul declare that he was not sent to baptize [vs. 17]? Are we to believe that he was sent to preach a gospel message that baptism saves while not concerning himself with the baptisms?

This passage proves beyond doubt that baptism is necessary in order to be saved.

In verse 13 Paul set down an undeniable truth. He mentions two things that are necessary to belong to Paul, Cephas, Apollos, or Christ. (1) That person must have been crucified for you; (2) you must have been baptized in the name of that person.

Paul said, "Was Paul crucified for you?" In other words, was Paul crucified so you could be forgiven of your sins? Secondly, "Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" "In the name of" in this passage means that a person baptized in someone's name assigns them to that person. Thus, if any were baptized in the name of Paul they were assigned the name of Paul. They would become "of Paul." This is where the proof resides. In order to be assigned to Christ, a person must be baptized "in the name of" Christ. Gal. 3:27 makes it clear that "As many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." If a person belongs to Christ, Christ was crucified for him, and he must also have been baptized into Him.

Notice further that Paul was thankful that he didn't baptize many people. The reason was because he feared that some may say they had been baptized in his own name. Again, this overwhelmingly affirms that one must be baptized in the name of Christ to be "of Christ!"

Some will argue that Paul was saying that baptism wasn't important when he said, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (V17). This simply is not true. Again, Paul was thankful he did not baptize many because of his fear that some would say they were "of" him.

Paul would have been disregarding Christs' clear command to "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them ...." (Mat. 28:19). Paul was either disregarding this explicit instruction given by Jesus, or he must have not meant that baptism was not important. Further, if "Christ sent me not to baptize" means that Paul was forbidden to baptize, then he disobeyed Jesus, because he says that he did baptize Crispus and Gaius.

The word "sent" (Greek, APESTALEV) involves the meaning of "made me an apostle." Jesus made Paul an apostleprimarily to preach. Anyone can baptize, but only a select few had the privilege to be an apostle of Christ.

It would be impossible for Paul to mean that baptism was not important. He was baptized himself (Ac. 22:16). He emphasized that baptism was a burial; (Rom. 6:3-5; Col. 2:121; he said that it cloths a person with Christ (Gal. 3:27); and that it put's a person into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).

Some try to put the gospel at opposite ends with baptism. In other words, some say that baptism is not a part of the gospel of Christ. Jesus said, however, "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mk. 16:16). Clearly Jesus said that baptism is a part of the gospel. If baptism is not a part of the gospel then Peter, John, Paul, and Phillip were all preaching something other than what Jesus commanded them to preach. Phillip "preached unto him Jesus" (Ac. 8:35) yet the Eunuch somehow learned that he needed to be baptized. Peter cried, "Repent and be baptized..." in response to the Jews question, "What shall we do?" (Ac. 2:37-38). Clearly baptism is a part of the gospel of Christ.

To sum it up: Make sure the scripture your learning from is actually water baptism, not Spirit baptism [like Eph 4:5], and make no mistake, salvation is received by faith, PLUS NOTHING. Works & baptism come AFTER salvation, never before. They are a fruit of salvation.



I have already proven that the one baptism that saves is water baptism and not spirit baptism (see my previous post). I agree with you that salvation is received by faith, but not by faith alone. I have already shown you that faith is a work of God just like baptism is work of God. You cannot deny one and the embrace the other. James disagrees with your summary because says that faith without works is dead. I showed in my previous post that belief and baptism must grammatically occur before salvation in Mark 16:16. So, the ball is your court now.
 
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ARBITER01

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You keep wanting to go all the way back to verse 15, but you cannot do that and be grammatically correct. They in Acts 2:1 refers back to the apostles in Acts 1:26. You need to remember that in the orignal text there is no chapter and verses and there is no divison between our 1:26 and 2:1. You need to read these two verses together. When you do it it becomes clear that they are the apostles, which agrees with the following grammer rule:

A word or phrase to which a pronoun (such as “they”) refers can be
found by looking back to the nearest noun or pronoun with which it agrees in
number, etc.

In our case, the pronoun “they” in 2:1 clearly refers back to the noun “apostles”​
in 1:26 -
[FONT=Arial,Italic]not [/FONT]to the 120 disciples way back in 1:15!

I am not ask you to depend on me for anything. I am just trying to show basic grammar rules that proves that they cannot refer to the 120.


I'm sorry my friend, but even Peter states that the gift of The Holy Spirit was not contained to just the apostles,.

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be immersed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.

Again, I'm not sure why you are trying to assert that only the apostles received The Holy Spirit back in acts 2 when Peter himself says that it is for anyone who calls upon the name of The Lord.

It is very clear in that passage.

And additionally, there is nothing to state in scripture that the amount of folks that were meeting in the upper room just suddenly somehow went from 120 down to 12 before Pentecost.

I'm not sure why this is a stumbling block for you other than it must be going against a certain doctrinal stance you are wanting to maintain. GOD would never play favorites with The Holy Spirit and only give it to 12 out of the 120.
 
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mikev

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Yes, the word baptism does not always mean water baptism. Besides HS baptism it also used to to refer to being baptized in to suffering. We must look at the context to figure out what kind of baptism is being talked about.

Will you at least agree with me that baptism is neccessary to be saved as Jesus said in:

Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Will agree that there is only one baptism that saves according to Paul:

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

To me the passages clearly teach baptism saves and that there is only one that saves. Do you agree or disagree. (right now I am not concerned about, which baptism saves, we can discuss which one if you agree that there is only one baptism that saves.)

I was trying to point out that we need to be careful when we speak concerning the Scriptures that we do not assume things, like assuming that “baptize” always means water. It’s like the phrase, “In the beginning,” does not always refer to Genesis 1:1. Peter used it referring to the day of Pentecost.

That was really my main point – being careful in handling the Scriptures. Something very few people are willing to do is to look up and examine every occurrence of a word or phrase to check what word or phrase is used or not used, and, how the word or phrase is used. That would include seeing the word or phrase in its immediate and remote context as well as taking into consideration figures of speech and biblical culture.

But too often, some people just have their favorite verse and simply want to argue about it. Then, someone else voices their favorite verse on the topic believing their opinion is right. That is really not an honest approach to God’s Word. Years ago I did a fairly exhaustive study on “baptize” from both the Old and New Testament. It was very rewarding.

As for your question, “Do you agree,” I would say that Romans 10:9 says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And Ephesians 2 states,
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Not of works, lest any man should boast.


For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Since salvation does not come by my works, then going down to the river to be water baptized does not bring me salvation – that would be works. Confessing all my sins would be works. Giving money to feed the poor would be works.

If we could gain salvation by works, then we wouldn’t have needed Jesus Christ. Romans 4:24 says that we have been “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Not in our works, but in the completed work of Christ.

When you confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you are saved. Some like to refer to this as being “born again, or, “the new birth.” Others like refer to is as, “A new man,” and others refer to it from even other phrases from the New Testament.

Certainly that begs the question of really studying the references to “baptize” in the New Testament to see if, in the context, any of those references are indeed referring to the new birth.
 
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coolbrees

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Salvation is achieved by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Every account in the bible of someone baptized came after they had first believed. If salvation was only achieved through baptism then this would make man more powerful the God. Now, baptism is the first act of obidience for a new christian.
 
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cougan

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I'm sorry my friend, but even Peter states that the gift of The Holy Spirit was not contained to just the apostles,.



Again, I'm not sure why you are trying to assert that only the apostles received The Holy Spirit back in acts 2 when Peter himself says that it is for anyone who calls upon the name of The Lord.

It is very clear in that passage.

And additionally, there is nothing to state in scripture that the amount of folks that were meeting in the upper room just suddenly somehow went from 120 down to 12 before Pentecost.

I'm not sure why this is a stumbling block for you other than it must be going against a certain doctrinal stance you are wanting to maintain. GOD would never play favorites with The Holy Spirit and only give it to 12 out of the 120.

Once again you have done nothing to change the grammar of those verses. Also you fail to understand the difference between the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the gift of the Holy Spirit. Every person that is baptized does receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, but not the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

There are only two recorded instances of Holy baptism. 1 On the day of Pentecost on the Apostles only. 2 On Conenlius's household. The first time was prove that Jesus was sitting at right hand of God, and the second instance was to prove that God had included the gentiles in his plan of salvation.

Think about this if Holy Spirit baptism saved Corneilus and his household then it did so before they were able to hear the truth. In Acts 11 the angel told Cornelius that Peter would tell him the words by which he must be saved. Peter had just barely started telling them about Christ when God poured the Holy Spirit out on them. Peter's first response was to get water to baptize them so they could be saved. There is no other vailid explaination why Peter would water baptize them becasue if HS baptism is what saves then there would be no need for water baptism.

One thing you will notice about the apostles is that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit made the unique in that they were the only ones that had the ability to pass on power of the Holy Spirit to others by laying their hands on them.

Thing about this, in Acts 8 Philip who had the apostles lay their hands on him back it acts 6 had the miracelous abilities and when he went to the Samaritans he preached to them and only baptized them in the name of Jesus.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

If Holy Spirit baptism is what saves, then why did Philip on baptize them in water in the name of Jesus and run off and leave them in a lost state if water baptism does not save? Why didnt he lay his hands on them so they could receive the Holy Spirit? Further more the Scriptures clearly teach that those who OBEY will receive the Holy Spirit acts 5:32. Did not the Samartians obey? Of course they did. The only logical answer to this is that there is different between the outpouring of the holy spirit, having the gift of the Holy Spirit, and have miracelous powers of the Holy Spirit.

I belive that the Samaritans were saved as Philip baptism them in the name of Jesus just as it was carried on in Acts 2. I also belive they received the gift of the HS as result of the baptism. I belive the gift of the HS is when we are marked or sealed by Him, which shows that we are Christians Eph. 1:13. When this happens we can say that spirit is in us just like we can the Father and the Son is in us. We can know by our faith that they are, but not miracelous come from it.

This is why the apostles had to go to Samaria and lay their hands on them so they could receive the Holy Spirit in the sense of receiving the ability fo miracelous gifts because the mirceleous gifts were temporary, but neccesary to spread the gospel becaue God's Word had not yet been fully revealed. Those who proclaimed it could prove what they were saying was from God by their signs and miracles mark 16:20.

Since ONLY the apostles had the ability to pass the mireclous gifts of the HS. Once the died, miracles died out because once the word of God was fully revealed the purpose of miracles were over.

I hope this helps you understanding.
 
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cougan

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Salvation is achieved by faith in Jesus Christ alone. Every account in the bible of someone baptized came after they had first believed. If salvation was only achieved through baptism then this would make man more powerful the God. Now, baptism is the first act of obidience for a new christian.

No one has said that baptism saves you by itself. It is one part, that is no greater or less than what God has said we must do to be saved. Of course no one has been baptized first and then belived. (Well, I take that back. Those who teach children are born in sin and baptism them as babes would fall under this category, but this teaching is incorrect anyways.)

Uner normal circumstances a person will have to belive first before they do anything else becasue if they do not belive why would they do anything else.

Read my previous post, I have show that faith is work of God and baptism is a work of God (not man). If you are nullify baptism for salvation then you must also nullify faith.

How can baptism give man power over God, when God is the one that commanded it? The only way we could have power over God through baptism is if we could get ourselves into heaven by our power through the water, but thats not the case. Our salvation comes from believing, repenting, confessing Jesus as Lord and beign baptized. When we are baptized we put or faith in the working of God knowing that He is removing our sins with blood of Christ as we submit to what He has commanded us to do.
 
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coolbrees

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No one has said that baptism saves you by itself. It is one part, that is no greater or less than what God has said we must do to be saved. Of course no one has been baptized first and then belived. (Well, I take that back. Those who teach children are born in sin and baptism them as babes would fall under this category, but this teaching is incorrect anyways.)

Uner normal circumstances a person will have to belive first before they do anything else becasue if they do not belive why would they do anything else.

Read my previous post, I have show that faith is work of God and baptism is a work of God (not man). If you are nullify baptism for salvation then you must also nullify faith.

How can baptism give man power over God, when God is the one that commanded it? The only way we could have power over God through baptism is if we could get ourselves into heaven by our power through the water, but thats not the case. Our salvation comes from believing, repenting, confessing Jesus as Lord and beign baptized. When we are baptized we put or faith in the working of God knowing that He is removing our sins with blood of Christ as we submit to what He has commanded us to do.

I'm sorry I did not read your post. I was merely addressing the question that started the discussion. Too many pages to try and catch up on, ya know? The reason I said salvation through baptism would make man more powerful than God is because a man could boast about of many souls he saved for Christ through his baptizing.
 
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cougan

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I was trying to point out that we need to be careful when we speak concerning the Scriptures that we do not assume things, like assuming that “baptize” always means water. It’s like the phrase, “In the beginning,” does not always refer to Genesis 1:1. Peter used it referring to the day of Pentecost.

That was really my main point – being careful in handling the Scriptures. Something very few people are willing to do is to look up and examine every occurrence of a word or phrase to check what word or phrase is used or not used, and, how the word or phrase is used. That would include seeing the word or phrase in its immediate and remote context as well as taking into consideration figures of speech and biblical culture.

But too often, some people just have their favorite verse and simply want to argue about it. Then, someone else voices their favorite verse on the topic believing their opinion is right. That is really not an honest approach to God’s Word. Years ago I did a fairly exhaustive study on “baptize” from both the Old and New Testament. It was very rewarding.

As for your question, “Do you agree,” I would say that Romans 10:9 says, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

And Ephesians 2 states,
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved


And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Not of works, lest any man should boast.


For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Since salvation does not come by my works, then going down to the river to be water baptized does not bring me salvation – that would be works. Confessing all my sins would be works. Giving money to feed the poor would be works.

If we could gain salvation by works, then we wouldn’t have needed Jesus Christ. Romans 4:24 says that we have been “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” Not in our works, but in the completed work of Christ.

When you confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you are saved. Some like to refer to this as being “born again, or, “the new birth.” Others like refer to is as, “A new man,” and others refer to it from even other phrases from the New Testament.

Certainly that begs the question of really studying the references to “baptize” in the New Testament to see if, in the context, any of those references are indeed referring to the new birth.

You have not added anything new, but you have contridictied yourself and you have not dealt with any my points, nor have you dealt with what James said about works.

In your post you have said that confessing is a work and that works cannot save you, then you say that you must confess Jesus to be saved. Which is it confessing neccessary or not neccessary for salvation. I showed you from Jn. 6:29 that faith is work. Based on your thoughts you would have to say that we are not saved by faith.
 
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mikev

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You have not added anything new, but you have contridictied yourself and you have not dealt with any my points, nor have you dealt with what James said about works.

In your post you have said that confessing is a work and that works cannot save you, then you say that you must confess Jesus to be saved. Which is it confessing neccessary or not neccessary for salvation. I showed you from Jn. 6:29 that faith is work. Based on your thoughts you would have to say that we are not saved by faith.

Cougan,

I did not contradict myself. To confess your sins is indeed works, it is hard works - there isn't a person alive who could confess to God every sin he or she has ever committed. That is works.

To confess (homologeo) or, to say and mean, that Jesus is Lord is not works - we are not saved by our own works; If we could save ourselves by our works we woulnd't have needed the savior to pay the full price for us.

We are not saved by confessing our sins, we are saved by confessing the savior who paid for all sins, and, by believing that God raised him from the dead.
 
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cowboysfan1970

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John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

There are very few Christians that claim that unless you are submerged into a tank of water that under no circumstances will you go to Heaven. There are also those that claim that Christ turned water not into wine at the wedding in Cana but into grape juice.
 
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ARBITER01

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Since ONLY the apostles had the ability to pass the mireclous gifts of the HS. Once the died, miracles died out because once the word of God was fully revealed the purpose of miracles were over.

I figured this was where your stumbling block was, cessionalist teaching.

The biggest problem with that sort of doctrine is it doesn't agree with the body of scripture. For instance,..

1Jn 2:5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby know we that we are in him:

1Jn 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

And we see Jesus state this same thing as His standard for all of us,..

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.

There is no disclaimer here from Jesus. His works include healing, prophecy, words of wisdom, working of miracles, etc, etc.

You don't get to pick and choose what you think you should be doing for Jesus, you are to follow Him, and with that, our conversation has ended. I've had my fair share of debates with cessionalists and it only leads to a strife of tongues. Good day.
 
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hopeinGod

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Consider these Scriptures:

Heb. 6:1-2: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

1 John 5:8: "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

Just as there exists a threefold godhead: Father, Son and Holy Ghost; and a threefold makeup of man: spirit, soul and body; we also have a threefold doctrine of baptisms: Spirit, water and blood.

The Spirit baptism is for the empowerment of the soul. Water baptism is for the demonstration to the world that when our bodies are immersed in water, we are declaring our separation from the world. And, blood baptism relates to the verse, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins," or justification. Blood baptism is for the quickening of your spirit.

So, in answer to your question, do we need baptized in order to be saved, the answer is surely, absolutely yes! We can't escape blood baptism during our intial repentance. When we give our lives to Christ we are being literally baptized in Christ's blood, for through the shedding of His blood He became the propitiation of our sins, and only through his shed blood can we become Christians.

Dave
 
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