Abraham = Job?

granpa · Jul 2, 2009

is there a school of thought that equates Abraham with Job?

could the Zophar mentioned in Job be the same as the Zohar mentioned in genesis 23?

also the tempest mentioned in Job could be a war not a thunderstorm or a tornado. the devil (adversary) could have been his opponent in the war.

the ashes Job sits in could be the ruins of his city and the sores Job was afflicted with could be the result of crude biological warfare.

cf. Job 30:12

granpa · Jul 2, 2009

posting deleted

AMR · Jul 3, 2009

You are allegorizing where allegory is not be used as the genre in Job. I don't see how your suggestions have biblical warrant.

AMR

daveleau · Jul 3, 2009

Disregard this as it applies to the Prophets of the OT, rather than to Job. See post #8 below...

When you see thunderstorms mentioned in relation to God in the OT, often God is being contrasted to Baal. Baal in the OT times was the god who brought the rain and rode the storms. OT writers often described God in this way as a polemic to the pagan nations around them. Since we do not know the timeframe of Job except through tradition, it is hard to tell if Job's time was plagued by Baal worshippers, and whether the storm references were this sort of polemic to show God as the one true Deity worthy of worship. In essence, I think Ask Mr. Religion above has it right that we should avoid allegory unless there is something clearly pointing to it from Scripture.

granpa · Jul 3, 2009

allegory? you make it sound like I'm making up some completely new meaning for the word. its the dictionary definition of the word.

1. A violent windstorm, frequently accompanied by rain, snow, or hail.
2. Furious agitation, commotion, or tumult; an uproar: "The tempest in my mind/Doth from my senses take all feeling" (Shakespeare).

Tempest a tumultuous throng; a rushing crowd of people or things, 1746.
Examples: tempest of cheering, 1909; of wild horses, 1866; of sand, 1856; of temptations, 1606; of wind, 1250.

I believe that we should always assume the simplest explanation for biblical stories and this is definitely the simplest explanation.

AMR · Jul 4, 2009

granpa said:
I believe that we should always assume the simplest explanation for biblical stories and this is definitely the simplest explanation.

Fair enough. Now let's see, you say

could the Zophar mentioned in Job be the same as the Zohar mentioned in genesis 23?

also the tempest mentioned in Job could be a war not a thunderstorm or a tornado. the devil (adversary) could have been his opponent in the war.

the ashes Job sits in could be the ruins of his city and the sores Job was afflicted with could be the result of crude biological warfare.

By what standard of "simplest explanation" do you arrive at these statements? The plain reading of Job gives no indication that it is an allegorical book, yet you have found it full of symbolism, where none is indicated. How do you justify this given the plain reading of Job?

AMR

granpa · Jul 4, 2009

allegory? what allegory? its the dictionary definition of the word.

1. A violent windstorm, frequently accompanied by rain, snow, or hail.
2. Furious agitation, commotion, or tumult; an uproar: "The tempest in my mind/Doth from my senses take all feeling" (Shakespeare).

Tempest a tumultuous throng; a rushing crowd of people or things, 1746.
Examples: tempest of cheering, 1909; of wild horses, 1866; of sand, 1856; of temptations, 1606; of wind, 1250.

daveleau · Jul 4, 2009

I did some research and this is what I found. I hope this helps.

TEMPEST:
Job is primarily poetic, and this holds true in Job 9:17 where we see the first use of the term tempest (KJV). This verse is an example of parallelism where the second half of the verse restates and emphasizes meaning of the first half. The same goes for Job 27:20.

While Job 9:17's context could lend itself to being an opposing army or a storm, there is little reference in Job to armies or war. The context of the passage speaks of God's power. God does use armies in the Scriptures (see the Prophets, especially Jeremiah) as His tool for judgment; however, his power is most often described in terms of natural forces, such as storms, earthquakes and the sea. Looking at the other reference to tempests (27:20), this reference's context points firmly to a storm. The first half of the parallel lines of poetry in this verse mentions a flood, and the next verse (21) refers to strong winds.

ZOHAR and ZOPHAR:
Zohar was a Hittite, as he is son of Ephron the Hittite. The Hittite lands bounded Caanan to the north and went through the heart of modern Turkey.
Zophar is a Naamathite. The location of Naamah could be in Judah (Josh 15:41) or in Arabia. Since Job's other two friends were Temanites and Shuhites (both in Arabia), then Naamathite could be in Arabia.
With these two geographical ideas in mind, I do not believe Zohar and Zophar could be the same person, as the two titles are separated significantly by geography.

ASHES and SORES/BOILS:
The ashes could be a burned city, although a common form of mourning was to rend clothes and cover the body and head with ashes. This seems like a more likely scenario based on the despair Job displays. As for the sores, Job was afflicted with boils from the sole of his foot to his crown. The Hebrew word for boil describes an eruption that is possibly leprous (BDB). WSOTDICT and The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the OT both define the word for "boils" used in Job the same. It is a skin disease represented by a hair follicle that is infected causing pus and an inflamed area of the skin around the follicle. Based on this, I do not think this could be inflicted by war.

ABRAHAM and JOB:
On a generic note, I have seen no link between Job and Abraham. In fact, in James 2 and James 5, James mentions both Job (5:11) and Abraham (2:21-23) separately and in completely different contexts. If they were linked, I do not think we would see that.

I do not think what I posted in my first post of this thread applies to this discussion after I read a little about what you were discussing rather than speaking off the top of my head. My apologies. Hopefully, the above study will make up for it. While what I said in the post earlier is true, it applies to the Prophets of the OT, not to Job.

In Christ,
Dave

granpa · Jul 4, 2009

I only disagree with:
"there is little reference in Job to armies or war."

6:4
10:17
15:22-24
16:13-14
19:12
19:29
20:24
30:11-14
34:6
39:21-25
41:26-29

also I found this on wikipedia:
Lament for Ur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
apparently ur was the biggest city on earth at the time.
gen 11:31 is usually interpretted 'ur of chaldea' so Abraham would be from ur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Dynasty_of_Ur
"With the fall of the Ur III Dynasty after to an Elamite invasion in 2004 BC, Babylonia fell under foreign (Amorite) influence"
Mamre who apparently owned the 'great trees of mamre' was an amorite according to gen 14:13. compare this to gen 23:17 ("and all the trees within the borders of the field")
i see a connection here with genesis 14.
btw, the 14 years they were subject to kedorlaomer may correspond to the 15 years between the birth of Ishmael and the birth of Isaac..

daveleau · Jul 4, 2009

You are correct regarding war. Thank you.

I do not get the connection you are making between Ur, Naamah or the Hittite regions. My thinking is that the origins of Zophar and Zohar would be the same, or at least close to each other if they were the same person. Ur is not close to either location. I could see if the region was called by two different names. For instance, in the NT, the Gospels refer to Decapolis which consisted of several cities including Hippos. If one book said a person was from Hippos and another said Decapolis, I could understand that the two were both correct. But, Ur was so far removed from either of these other regions that I fail to see how they could be connected.

Hittites were in Syria and Turkey. Naamah was either in Judah or in southern Arabia. Ur was in Mesopatamia (eastern Iraq). I think we have to assume the Scriptures are in error to make the connection, and I do not see a reason for making that assumption. (I support Scriptural inerrancy.)

granpa · Jul 4, 2009

abraham was from ur which was the biggest city in the world at the time. he was living with the amorites in canaan.
according to gen 14 babylonia (ur) and elam conquered the amorites and ruled them for 14 years. then they rebelled.
according to google the ur-amorite wars lasted from 2034 to 2004

Third Dynasty of Ur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"With the fall of the Ur III Dynasty after to an Elamite invasion in 2004 BC, Babylonia fell under foreign (Amorite) influence"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorite
"As the centralized structure of the neo-Sumerian empire of Ur slowly collapsed, the component regions began to reassert their former independence, and places where Amorites resided were no exception. Elsewhere, armies of Elam were attacking and weakening the empire, making it vulnerable. Some Amorites aggressively took advantage of the failing empire to seize power for themselves. There was not an Amorite invasion as such, but Amorites did ascend to power in many locations, especially during the reign of the last king of the Ur-III Dynasty, Ibbi-Sin. Leaders with Amorite names assumed power in various places, including Isin, Larsa, and Babylon. The Elamites finally sacked Ur in ca. 2004 BC. Some time later, the most powerful ruler in Mesopotamia (immediately preceding the rise of Hammurabi of Babylon) was Shamshi-Adad I, another Amorite."
"The era of the Amorite kingdoms, ca. 2000–1600 BC, is sometimes known as the "Amorite period" in Mesopotamian history."

according to gen 14:13 mamre was an amorite.
once ur fell under attack it follows that abraham himself may have become a target. they may have seen him as a spy reporting back to his superiors about the amorite armies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lament_for_ur
"The Lament for Ur is a Sumerian lament composed after the fall of Ur to the Elamites and the end of the city's third dynasty (c. 2000 BC). It contains one (possibly the first) of five known Mesopotamian "city laments"—dirges for ruined cities in the voice of the city's tutelary goddess—within its eleven kirugu (sections or stanzas). In this case it is Ningal who weeps for her city, after pleading with the god Enlil to call back his destructive storm...
The Book of Lamentations of the Old Testament, which bewails the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon, is similar in style and theme to these earlier Mesopotamian laments."

granpa · Jul 4, 2009

heres i nice webpage on the history of biological warfare:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/brisray/misc/mbiowar.htm

here is the strongs definition:
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/STRHEB78.htm#S7822

heres all verses with 'boil' in them.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/CONHEB782.htm#S7822

deu 28:27 The LORD will smite55 thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, 6076 and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst4 not be healed.9

deu 28:35 The LORD shall smite55 thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot 3201 4 be healed,9 from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.

ex 9:8 And the LORD said4 unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take3 to you handfuls 4393 of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle1 it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.
ex 9:9 And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth6 [with] blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt.
10 And they took4 ashes of the furnace, and stood4 before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled4 it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth6 [with] blains upon man, and upon beast.
11 And the magicians could1 not stand2 before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians.

lev 13:18 The flesh also, in which, [even] in the skin thereof, was a boil, and is healed,8
19 And in the place of the boil there be a white rising, or a bright spot, white, and somewhat reddish, and it be shewed8 to the priest;
20 And if, when the priest seeth1 it, behold, it [be] in sight lower than the skin, and the hair thereof be turned1 white; the priest shall pronounce him unclean:14 it [is] a plague of leprosy broken out1 of the boil.
21 But if the priest look4 on it, and, behold, [there be] no white hairs therein, and [if] it [be] not lower than the skin, but [be] somewhat dark; then the priest shall shut him up52 seven days:
22 And if it spread4 much abroad2 in the skin, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean:14 it [is] a plague.
23 But if the bright spot stay4 in his place, [and] spread1 not, it [is] a burning boil; and the priest shall pronounce him clean.14

2 king 20:7 And Isaiah said,4 Take3 a lump of figs. And they took4 and laid4 [it] on the boil, and he recovered.4

isa 38:21 For Isaiah had said,4 Let them take4 a lump of figs, and lay [it] for a plaister4 upon the boil, and he shall recover.4

granpa · Jul 4, 2009

Daveleau said:
ZOHAR and ZOPHAR:
Zohar was a Hittite, as he is son of Ephron the Hittite. The Hittite lands bounded Caanan to the north and went through the heart of modern Turkey.
Zophar is a Naamathite. The location of Naamah could be in Judah (Josh 15:41) or in Arabia. Since Job's other two friends were Temanites and Shuhites (both in Arabia), then Naamathite could be in Arabia.
With these two geographical ideas in mind, I do not believe Zohar and Zophar could be the same person, as the two titles are separated significantly by geography.

ephron was son of zohar.

Biblical Hittites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Hittites (also Hethites) and Children of Heth, translating Hebrew חתי HTY and בני-חת BNY-HT are the second of the eleven Canaanite nations in the Hebrew Bible. They are purportedly descended from one Heth (Hebrew: חֵת, Modern Ḥet Tiberian Ḥē&#7791, a son of Canaan, son of Ham, and they are mentioned in Genesis as having sold land to Abraham.

Given the casual tone in which the Hittites are mentioned in most Old Testament references, Biblical scholars before the age of archaeology traditionally regarded them as a smaller tribe, living in the hills of Canaan during the era of the Patriarchs, including Abraham. This picture was completely changed by the archaeological finds that placed the center of the Hatti/Hattusas civilization far to the north, in modern-day Turkey, relegating Hittites in Canaan to a periphery.

The question whether the Biblical Hittites of the first half of the first millennium BC are identical to the earlier Anatolian Hittites is still disputed in academic Biblical and ancient Near Eastern studies.
Because of the perceived discrepancy between the picture of the Hittites as developed in the Bible and the archaeological discoveries, some Biblical scholars reject Archibald Sayce's identification of the two peoples, and believe that the similarity in names is only a coincidence. For example E. A. Speiser, referring to "the children of Heth" in the Book of Genesis writes "For reasons of both history and geography, it is most unlikely that this group name has any direct connection either with the Hattians of Anatolia or with their 'Hittite' successors."

the sons (and possibly sons of sons) of canaan include heth and the amorites. if amorites were a tribe of the hittites then it would all make a lot of sense.

daveleau · Jul 5, 2009

How would it link Arabia?

granpa · Jul 5, 2009

I'm still working on that

Shuah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Strong's Hebrew Bible Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com
"a Shuchite or descendant of Shuach (a son of Abraham)"

Tayma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Strong's Hebrew Bible Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com
"Tema, a son of Ishmael (son of Abraham), and the region settled by him"

Naamah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"a city of Canaan, listed in the Joshua 15:41, as having been conquered and subsequently settled by the Tribe of Judah"
Strong's Hebrew Bible Dictionary - Bible Software by johnhurt.com
"feminine of 'Na`am' (5277); pleasantness; Naamah, the name of an antediluvian woman, of an Ammonitess, and of a place in Palestine:".

job 6:19 (given in answer to Eliphaz the Temanite) here tema seems to be linked to sheba. In Genesis 25:3, Sheba and Dedan are listed as names of sons of Jokshan, son of Abraham.

granpa · Aug 2, 2009

granpa said:
is there a school of thought that equates Abraham with Job?

could the Zophar mentioned in Job be the same as the Zohar mentioned in genesis 23?

also the tempest mentioned in Job could be a war not a thunderstorm or a tornado. the devil (adversary) could have been his opponent in the war.

the ashes Job sits in could be the ruins of his city and the sores Job was afflicted with could be the result of crude biological warfare.

cf. Job 30:12

if job isnt abraham then i think i know who he probably is. gen 10:26 lists jobab as a son of joktan along with sheba and ophir who are also mentioned in the book of job.

freeport · Aug 4, 2009

granpa said:
is there a school of thought that equates Abraham with Job?

could the Zophar mentioned in Job be the same as the Zohar mentioned in genesis 23?

also the tempest mentioned in Job could be a war not a thunderstorm or a tornado. the devil (adversary) could have been his opponent in the war.

the ashes Job sits in could be the ruins of his city and the sores Job was afflicted with could be the result of crude biological warfare.

cf. Job 30:12

No Job is not Abraham.

And there are countless ways the Devil could have used to cause those sores and so forth: all such things in the planet are of the Devil. Therefore, when Jesus went about healing, that was against the works of the Devil, truly.

granpa · Aug 4, 2009

besides the jobab son of joktan there is also:
Jobab ben Zerah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also I wonder if shuah could be short for Joshua?

freeport · Aug 4, 2009

granpa said:
besides the jobab son of joktan there is also:
Jobab ben Zerah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also I wonder if shuah could be short for Joshua?

What are you getting at? That was not Joshua, the "friends" of Job were very wrong.

There are various theories on Job: the best I like is that he is eastern.

(Remember, the Magi... so knowledge of God has not just be relegated to Israel.)

The beliefs they express are relatively generic.

Anyway, if any of these were Joshua - most assuredly not - the Law and Moses and such would have been mentioned.

How then was the book written? Likely by a later, unnamed prophet moved by the Holy Spirit... just as Moses was told by God the Genesis and stories of Noah, Enoch, and so on.

granpa · Aug 4, 2009

none of the friends of Job were named Joshua or Shua. Bildad was a Shuite. which could mean he is a decendant of Shua or he lived in a city called Shua or he was a follower of a man named Shua.

Abraham = Job?

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