Not a debate...why pray the Rosary?

RevAngel said:

Idolatry= image worship
Necromancy= dead divination

So what did I say incorrectly?
People idolize the statues and paintings of Saints and pray to them for whatever reason you say...but it is still praying to something other than our Almighty YHWH.

Necromancy....oh Saint "Whomever help me find my wallet."
"Saint Barbara keep the field Artillery safe."
So as I see it Im right on the money.

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Thats it, im done. Ive told you enough times as it is that we do not worship Saints or their statues.

RevAngel said:

If you need more than the fact the men wrote Bible as guided by God then you need to examine where your faith comes from. I am happy to know that what I have is the truth. A divinely inspired correct truth for teaching and equiping the Saints. If you see it any other way I can't explain it any other way.

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So either you have no wish to answer the question, or you cannot answer it. If you're going to appeal to the idea of the Bible being the sole authority you need to come up with some justification as to why it is the sole authority. Stating that "I need to examine where my faith comes from" does not cut it. You are saying that we should trust the authority of the Bible alone. You would likely cite 2 Timothy 3:16 in support of this statement.

There is nowhere in the Bible that defines a list of what is "scripture." The verse in 2 Timothy requires external justification and evidence to be a complete argument. The problem is, though, that when you look at the external evidence (that is, the history of how the Bible was created), it leads you to the ecumenical councils and the discussions/teachings of theologians in the first centuries of Christianity.

"Men wrote the Bible as guided by God" is a product of the ecumenical councils and theologians in history. It is the vehicle through which the canon was established. Jerome was one of the first people to codify the New Testament canon. It was later re-stated at several synods and councils. For the Catholics, the canon was completely, dogmatically defined at the Council of Trent.

All Christians have faith that God is the "creator" of the Bible, so to speak. It was by his direction that it was created. But what we also know, from a completely objective, secular standpoint, is that what the Christians call "Tradition" was what compiled the Bible. There were debates and discussions throughout the centuries that led to the eventual formation of a canon.

For Christians, we know God is the entity behind the Bible's divine inspiration. We also know that it was a product of Tradition. Putting 2 and 2 together gives us: God, through men, used the Sacred Tradition of the Church to impart the Bible to humanity.

So, if it was Tradition that gave us the Bible, why does Tradition have to *stop* at the Bible? Is it because the practices it has produced are "against Scripture" or is it because it challenges your scriptural interpretations and your preconceived notions of the Bible's history?

If you are looking for a history lesson on how the Bible came to us at present ...I direct you to Foxe's Book of Martyrs. While the book is a bit one sided it is very detailed as it pertains to names and dates.

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The Book of Martyrs only applies to the Reformation, really. And as you said, it's a bit biased (to say the least). The much larger, and considerably more unbiased, selection of sources discovered from the study of history point towards a human deliberation-based way of codifying the canon of the Bible. The objective evidence is in favor of Tradition, not the idea of Sola Scriptura.

I am not "unorthodox" it just seems to be more of a Catholic forum.

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I never said you were. I am just telling you how the forum divides up its populace. If you adhere to the Nicene Creed (which, I might add, is also a product of the Tradition of the Church), you are considered an orthodox Christian by this forum and allowed to post in the Christians-Only sections. Otherwise, you are relegated to the sections open to all users.

This site isn't any more Catholic than it is Protestant. You just happened to be in a thread questioning Catholic doctrines and practices and posting what we perceive to be erroneous claims/accusations, so of course you will be met with a response or two.

RevAngel said:

Idolatry= image worship
Necromancy= dead divination

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You are creating a false equivalency here. There is no worship of saints. You can claim it as much as you want, but it's not going to change the fact that it isn't worship. The same goes for "necromancy."

So what did I say incorrectly?
People idolize the statues and paintings of Saints and pray to them for whatever reason you say...but it is still praying to something other than our Almighty YHWH.

Necromancy....oh Saint "Whomever help me find my wallet."
"Saint Barbara keep the field Artillery safe."
So as I see it Im right on the money.

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You are looking at those words in far too basic of a light. The interpretation you should be gleaning from these words is that the person is asking the Saint for their intercession to God for that particular task or request. Language is very ambiguous, and in cases like these, proper interpretation down to the smallest level is extremely important.

There is a reason why the language used in contracts, license agreements, and other legal proceedings is so obnoxious and strangely worded. It is worded in a way as to remove as much ambiguity as possible. Perhaps it is a concept that should be applied to religion in some areas as well...

I'm sure there are people out there who think that the individual Saints have special powers and can help them in certain areas of their lives. The correct teaching is that the Saints intercede to God on our behalf. So anything must eventually be routed through God, so to speak.

How can one create a false anything when the difinition is written down for us to see what it means then watch others do it and claim they do not do it.

MamaZ said:

How can one create a false anything when the difinition is written down for us to see what it means then watch others do it and claim they do not do it.

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You mean watch others do what you perceive to be wrong, and then when they explain what it actually is, to keep claiming that it's something else?

It's like someone showing up at your house on Christmas and noticing the Christmas tree. They then claim you are a Germanic pagan. You tell them that no, you are not. But they insist that you are a Germanic pagan. Obviously, the Christmas tree means you are a Germanic pagan. Just because you *think* you're not participating in those pagan traditions (which you have explained to them), clearly you are because you have a tree and have put ornaments on it. So, you are still quite clearly a Germanic pagan.

The fallacy in that logic is the same fallacy that people who continually claim Catholics worship Mary, practice necromancy, etc. are committing.

LOL So ya all don't pray to saints? You don't bow to statues? You do not call Mary queen of Heaven?

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."- John 14:6 NIV

Hasn't this concept been done to death already?

By the way, we all know that Jesus=both divine and human. Because of that, Mary only gave birth to Jesus the Man, otherwise, Holy Spirit conceived Jesus the Divinity.

MamaZ said:

LOL So ya all don't pray to saints? You don't bow to statues? You do not call Mary queen of Heaven?

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...I think you missed the point of my analogy.

MamaZ said:

LOL So ya all don't pray to saints? You don't bow to statues? You do not call Mary queen of Heaven?

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We do pray to saints, but prayer does not mean worship. Notice the two definitions of the word pray 1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving. We use it in the first manner with the Saints and the second for God.

Many Catholics do bow to statues, out of a sign of reverence and respect. "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;" Genesis 19:1

And we call Mary the Queen of Heaven because she is.

I am telling you we do not do these things out of worship. If you want to continue to continue your false belief out of some hatred of the Catholic Church; I will leave you with this "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love."

2 King said:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."- John 14:6 NIV

Hasn't this concept been done to death already?

By the way, we all know that Jesus=both divine and human. Because of that, Mary only gave birth to Jesus the Man, otherwise, Holy Spirit conceived Jesus the Divinity.

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I dont feel like explaining all the errors of the heresy of Nestorianism right now, but I suggest you look that up before continuing to believe that Jesus was two different persons in one.

Its sad. Just because a person does not want to acknowledge Mary as the Mother of God, they attack Jesus' divinity...

polishbeast said:

I dont feel like explaining all the errors of the heresy of Nestorianism right now, but I suggest you look that up before continuing to believe that Jesus was two different persons in one.

Its sad. Just because a person does not want to acknowledge Mary as the Mother of God, they attack Jesus' divinity...

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Are you saying that you believe Jesus wasn't both Divine and human at once?

Holy_Bannana said:

Are you saying that you believe Jesus wasn't both Divine and human at once?

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No, I am saying that he was both Divine and human in one person, not one person Divine and one person human which is what 2 King said.

2 King said:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."- John 14:6 NIV

Hasn't this concept been done to death already?

By the way, we all know that Jesus=both divine and human. Because of that, Mary only gave birth to Jesus the Man, otherwise, Holy Spirit conceived Jesus the Divinity.

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Mary cannot be the mother of God because God always existed. As you read in John 1:1-4

No where did i state that God isn't Divine and man.

He was born holy, just as Adam was created sinless. In contrast to Adam, who disobeyed God, Jesus obeyed God and was thus able to face sin's consequences in our place and make us acceptable to God. Jesus Christ, God's Son, had to be free from the sinful nature passed on to all other human beings by Adam. Because Jesus was born of a woman, he was a human being,; but as the Son of God, Jesus was born without any trace of human sin. Jesus is both fully human and fully divince.

2 King said:

Mary cannot be the mother of God because God always existed. As you read in John 1:1-4

No where did i state that God isn't Divine and man.

He was born holy, just as Adam was created sinless. In contrast to Adam, who disobeyed God, Jesus obeyed God and was thus able to face sin's consequences in our place and make us acceptable to God. Jesus Christ, God's Son, had to be free from the sinful nature passed on to all other human beings by Adam. Because Jesus was born of a woman, he was a human being,; but as the Son of God, Jesus was born without any trace of human sin. Jesus is both fully human and fully divince.

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So you agree to the heresy of Nestorianism which denies Mary as the Mother of God and that the two natures of Christ are seperate? Because that is what you are saying.

Does the Bible disprove the theory of Nestorianism?

heresy

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No where in the Bible does it say Holy Mary Mother of God!
so it isn't heresy (Heresy is anything in discordance with the Bible)

It says mother of our Savior, not Mother of God.

Maybe the real battle is between how many people actually believe that the 2nd person in the Godhead was literaly born that die, when in reality he always existed, she was just a vessel.