Not a debate...why pray the Rosary?

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RevAngel

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The purpose for me posting the scripture I have posted was to show you that Scripture validates my view on the subject while you have been showing me people from the past to validate your point. Intercession of and for the Saints as I have show over and over are for the living Saints on earth. You havent shown me a biblical reason why people pray the rosary. This has become a lesson for a 17 year old who claims to know the meaning of intercession yet does not use the context of the scripture. Most of the arguments presented have been taken out of Context.
Text with out Context is deceptive.

So I am back to square one with us non-catholics waiting to see a biblical reason for the rosary.
So I believe it is safe to say the the Bible does not support praying to Saints, but the Bible DOES promote us praying (for and having) living saints agreeing with us in prayer. So young man before you say I am taking things out of context show me how I have done so?
Did God say to pray to, do acts of worship towards anyone besides himself?
Is there a passage that I missed somewhere that says we should ever do anything like that?
You see it is not a debate but a lesson in using the Bible as it should be used.
A teaching tool and a devotional tool....

2 Timothy 3:


16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You see I can meditate on the Beattitudes or Psalm 23 or John 3:16 if I want to meditate on seeking God.
But we are told to

Hebrews 4:

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

So seeing that I may go boldly before the throne of Grace I really see no reason to invoke people not of this age for anything.
 
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polishbeast

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The purpose for me posting the scripture I have posted was to show you that Scripture validates my view on the subject while you have been showing me people from the past to validate your point. Intercession of and for the Saints as I have show over and over are for the living Saints on earth. You havent shown me a biblical reason why people pray the rosary. This has become a lesson for a 17 year old who claims to know the meaning of intercession yet does not use the context of the scripture. Most of the arguments presented have been taken out of Context.
Text with out Context is deceptive.

So I am back to square one with us non-catholics waiting to see a biblical reason for the rosary.
So I believe it is safe to say the the Bible does not support praying to Saints, but the Bible DOES promote us praying (for and having) living saints agreeing with us in prayer. So young man before you say I am taking things out of context show me how I have done so?
Did God say to pray to, do acts of worship towards anyone besides himself?
Is there a passage that I missed somewhere that says we should ever do anything like that?
You see it is not a debate but a lesson in using the Bible as it should be used.
A teaching tool and a devotional tool....

2 Timothy 3:


16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You see I can meditate on the Beattitudes or Psalm 23 or John 3:16 if I want to meditate on seeking God.
But we are told to

Hebrews 4:

16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

You say you didnt want a debate on the subject, and yet we give you why we pray the Rosary and you demand scripture evidence for it? What do you want us to say? All of the prayers of the Rosary come from Scripture. The meditations are on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. What more do you want?

We also do not worship saints for the final time. If you do not want to accept that than so be it, but I will not continue to be accused of being an idolater and put up with it.

Yes the Bible is a useful teaching tool. But where does it say it is the only teaching tool? The Bible itself places tradition as having equal authority. "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."
 
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polishbeast

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Where does it say that anything other than scripture is inspired by God? Such as praying the Rosery? If it is not inpired by God then what does scripture teach.. That unless God builds the house they labor in vain.

So where in scripture does it say what books make up scripture? If it doesnt, what authority gives us those books? If that authority gave us those books, wouldnt the same authority be able to give other prayers? (This is besides the fact that the prayers of the Rosary are scriptural)
 
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MamaZ

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So where in scripture does it say what books make up scripture? If it doesnt, what authority gives us those books? If that authority gave us those books, wouldnt the same authority be able to give other prayers? (This is besides the fact that the prayers of the Rosary are scriptural)
Scriptures are the written account. They were all contained into a book we call the bible. And people say that being a parent does not come with an intruction book.. Sure it does.. It is called the bible. The reason the scriptures have authority over what is true and what is made up of mens assumptions is that the scriptures are breathed by God. Gods word His breathe written down for His children to know what it is we are to believe and what we are not to believe. This is why scripture instucts us not to go beyond what is written. For the scriptures cannot be broken.
 
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polishbeast

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Scriptures are the written account. They were all contained into a book we call the bible. And people say that being a parent does not come with an intruction book.. Sure it does.. It is called the bible. The reason the scriptures have authority over what is true and what is made up of mens assumptions is that the scriptures are breathed by God. Gods word His breathe written down for His children to know what it is we are to believe and what we are not to believe. This is why scripture instucts us not to go beyond what is written. For the scriptures cannot be broken.

Now if only that addressed any of what I said
 
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Dark_Lite

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Scriptures are the written account. They were all contained into a book we call the bible. And people say that being a parent does not come with an intruction book.. Sure it does.. It is called the bible. The reason the scriptures have authority over what is true and what is made up of mens assumptions is that the scriptures are breathed by God. Gods word His breathe written down for His children to know what it is we are to believe and what we are not to believe. This is why scripture instucts us not to go beyond what is written. For the scriptures cannot be broken.

None of that says where in the Bible it defines what books are in the Bible.

It is a fact of history that the Bible was compiled by deliberations and debate. The question is, what does that mean?
 
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RevAngel

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You may may wish to throw darts at the word of God but we who choose the Word of God over Traditions will always measure the world by the standard of Scripture.


2 Peter 3

15 And consider that the forbearance of the Lord in returning is for the purpose of saving people, even as our beloved brother Paul, using the wisdom given him, has written to you as well,
16 Speaking of things like this in all his
epistles, though some things he says are hard to understand, and the unlearned and non-committed twist his words--as they do the other Scriptures--to their own destruction.
17 Beloved, since you have always known these things, beware, lest you also--being led away by the error of the wicked--abandon your own perseverance. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.
 
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Dark_Lite

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You may may wish to throw darts at the word of God but we who choose the Word of God over Traditions will always measure the world by the standard of Scripture.


2 Peter 3

15 And consider that the forbearance of the Lord in returning is for the purpose of saving people, even as our beloved brother Paul, using the wisdom given him, has written to you as well,
16 Speaking of things like this in all his
epistles, though some things he says are hard to understand, and the unlearned and non-committed twist his words--as they do the other Scriptures--to their own destruction.
17 Beloved, since you have always known these things, beware, lest you also--being led away by the error of the wicked--abandon your own perseverance. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

And again, on what authority are you determining that those passages are canonical and inspired scripture?
 
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polishbeast

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You may may wish to throw darts at the word of God but we who choose the Word of God over Traditions will always measure the world by the standard of Scripture.


2 Peter 3

15 And consider that the forbearance of the Lord in returning is for the purpose of saving people, even as our beloved brother Paul, using the wisdom given him, has written to you as well,
16 Speaking of things like this in all his
epistles, though some things he says are hard to understand, and the unlearned and non-committed twist his words--as they do the other Scriptures--to their own destruction.
17 Beloved, since you have always known these things, beware, lest you also--being led away by the error of the wicked--abandon your own perseverance. 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.


"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15

St. Paul seems to be placing tradition as having equal authority with scripture.

Also do not accuse us of "throwing darts at the Word of God" without backing up what you are saying. That isnt loving to accuse Catholics of having no reverence for scriptures, when nothing could be further from the truth.


And you conviniently didnt highlight the key part of what St. Peter was saying, "though some things he says are hard to understand, and the unlearned and non-committed twist his words--as they do the other Scriptures--to their own destruction."

I dont even know why you quoted that, you seem to be trying to make the point that tradition is unreliable, yet it actually says the opposite in that scripture can be unreliable without proper interpretation.
 
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RevAngel

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My point was simple and yet you missed it.
The important traditions were written in the epistles and the Writer of 2/3 of the Bible taught sound doctrine as Peter himself wrote. So to me that says all I need to know about
1 Scriptures being complete and the best rule book above and beyond any church "practice"
2 Peter vouched for the deep truths contained in Paul's letters.

By those two explanations you might be able to see why I do not question what books need be in or out of the Bible. If the 66 Books I have are the God Breathed Scriptures ....then what more do I need. There were some ancient churches that only had the Hebrew Covenanent and a letter or two and yet that was sufficient for the Holy Ghost to use and teach them from .... right?


I say you are throwing darts at the Bible because you keep questioning the source of the Bible.
The source of the Bible is NOT the Roman Catholic Church so you should stop assuming that. The Bible is put together written by God,and used by us, from God (not your Church) to teach the world.
 
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polishbeast

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My point was simple and yet you missed it.
The important traditions were written in the epistles and the Writer of 2/3 of the Bible taught sound doctrine as Peter himself wrote. So to me that says all I need to know about
1 Scriptures being complete and the best rule book above and beyond any church "practice"
2 Peter vouched for the deep truths contained in Paul's letters.

By those two explanations you might be able to see why I do not question what books need be in or out of the Bible. If the 66 Books I have are the God Breathed Scriptures ....then what more do I need. There were some ancient churches that only had the Hebrew Covenanent and a letter or two and yet that was sufficient for the Holy Ghost to use and teach them from .... right?


I say you are throwing darts at the Bible because you keep questioning the source of the Bible.
The source of the Bible is NOT the Roman Catholic Church so you should stop assuming that. The Bible is put together written by God,and used by us, from God (not your Church) to teach the world.

Tradition as St. Paul said himself. He said listen to whatever he taught, not just the letters that were used in the Bible. "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15
And than where did the Bible come from if not the Catholic Church? You think God dropped it out of the sky? Because I can quite assure you that it did not happen like that. And questioning something is equivalent of throwing darts at something? For not wanting to have a debate here, you are being awfully rude to the people you are questioning. Im thinking you want to debate us, which is fine. But dont try and hide under the disguise of trying to learn more about the Rosary when you have no desire to learn why we pray it.

Also scripture is not complete with 66 books, but that is a seperate issue I do not want to go into now. It only serves to show that everyone who accepts the Bible, accepts tradition in terms of the compilation of the Bible. To deny that is just ignorance on your part.

Also, where in scripture does it say scripture has ALL teaching?
 
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Dark_Lite

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I say you are throwing darts at the Bible because you keep questioning the source of the Bible.
The source of the Bible is NOT the Roman Catholic Church so you should stop assuming that. The Bible is put together written by God,and used by us, from God (not your Church) to teach the world.

God did not write the Bible and drop it out of the sky. Men, inspired by God, wrote the sacred scriptures. The Biblical canon was varied in the early church, and it was codified at several councils. Origen was one of the first people to attempt to codify it, and his canon was still different than what we have today.
 
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RevAngel

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Tradition as St. Paul said himself. He said listen to whatever he taught, not just the letters that were used in the Bible. "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15
And than where did the Bible come from if not the Catholic Church? You think God dropped it out of the sky? Because I can quite assure you that it did not happen like that. And questioning something is equivalent of throwing darts at something? For not wanting to have a debate here, you are being awfully rude to the people you are questioning. Im thinking you want to debate us, which is fine. But dont try and hide under the disguise of trying to learn more about the Rosary when you have no desire to learn why we pray it.

Also scripture is not complete with 66 books, but that is a seperate issue I do not want to go into now. It only serves to show that everyone who accepts the Bible, accepts tradition in terms of the compilation of the Bible. To deny that is just ignorance on your part.

Also, where in scripture does it say scripture has ALL teaching?

The Bible does not come from the Catholic Church my friend.
Christianity does not come from the Catholic church.
You seem to think that the Catholic Church learned its traditions from the Apostles. I believe the "official" Catholic Church didnt exist until Constantine. That being said I can not accept that the Apostles would have taught Mary worship nor the Veneration of Saints.

Either way I was looking for reasons to do the rosary and I got very few so the conversation has evovled. if you dont want to defend your faith practices i guess you could ignore this topic and move on.

By the way..........is this a Catholic website?
 
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polishbeast

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I find it funny and sad that when I ask you where the Bible came from you respond with not the Catholic Church.

And you got several reasons why you do, which you just chose to call Mary worship and start debating us. The fact that you continue to not listen and lie about what Catholics do, shows your true intentions. "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits."

And for the last time I DO NOT WORSHIP MARY AND PLACE HER AT AN EQUAL LEVEL WITH GOD, SHE IS A CREATED CREATURE! Ive asked you already to stop telling me I worship someone I dont. There is absolutely no need for that.
 
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RevAngel

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We also do not worship saints for the final time. If you do not want to accept that than so be it, but I will not continue to be accused of being an idolater and put up with it.

quote]

You wont put up with it?
Then why do it?
If I prayed to a stone or a coconut or an statue that did not have Christian origin....say for instance an image of Thor, or Mars or whatever...
Would it not be idolatry? Even if I asked for the "generic" entity to intercede for me...would it not be an act of idolatry or necromancy?

I am not accusing you of anything ...all I am saying is that you see it from that stand point.
I remember seeing people bowing infront of the image of Mary, bowing to it, and placing a rosary on it. They were not asking for incession. They were asking Mary to fix a situation in their lives. Just as a friend who told someone to pray to St Anthony to reveal the place of a lost item. Those are acts that the Bible does not condone.
If it is OK to consult the dead Saints why was it bad for King Saul to consult Samuel?
 
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polishbeast

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[FONT=arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif]1 Samuel 28:3-18
Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land. And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa. And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor. And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing. Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
[/FONT]
 
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polishbeast

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You wont put up with it?
Then why do it?
If I prayed to a stone or a coconut or an statue that did not have Christian origin....say for instance an image of Thor, or Mars or whatever...
Would it not be idolatry? Even if I asked for the "generic" entity to intercede for me...would it not be an act of idolatry or necromancy?

I am not accusing you of anything ...all I am saying is that you see it from that stand point.
I remember seeing people bowing infront of the image of Mary, bowing to it, and placing a rosary on it. They were not asking for incession. They were asking Mary to fix a situation in their lives. Just as a friend who told someone to pray to St Anthony to reveal the place of a lost item. Those are acts that the Bible does not condone.
If it is OK to consult the dead Saints why was it bad for King Saul to consult Samuel?

I suggest you look up the definition of idolatry and necromancy before applying it to praying to the Saints.
 
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Dark_Lite

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The Bible does not come from the Catholic Church my friend.
Christianity does not come from the Catholic church.
You seem to think that the Catholic Church learned its traditions from the Apostles. I believe the "official" Catholic Church didnt exist until Constantine. That being said I can not accept that the Apostles would have taught Mary worship nor the Veneration of Saints.

Either way I was looking for reasons to do the rosary and I got very few so the conversation has evovled. if you dont want to defend your faith practices i guess you could ignore this topic and move on.

By the way..........is this a Catholic website?

What reasons do you possibly want for praying the rosary? It's a prayer. Christianity commands prayer. The prayer itself is specifically for meditating on various parts of Jesus' life. Some people find it helps, others don't. It's a way of praying. That's it.

Also, you have yet to provide any real answer about the history of the Bible, except "not the Catholic Church." Answering that God made the Bible doesn't really cut it--doesn't provide any external evidence about the canonicity of Scripture.

Finally, this website is a Christian website. It is open to all denominations and traditions which follow orthodoxy as defined by the Nicene Creed. Certain other sections are also open to non-Christians or "unorthodox" Christians.
 
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