Gays in the Church

Andreusz · Jul 1, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
But then again, as a new religion, you have my support as an American to do as you wilteth. .

You keep using this phrase, Polly. Do you believe it is grammatically correct Early Modern English, or are you just trying to be amusing?

KCKID · Jul 1, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
I have made that clear in post after post after post after post. What you do is ignore the solid reasons for rejecting Gay Activism and Gay Culture as being supported by anything in the New Testament but your "anything goes" style of "love."

Condom morality is hardly Gospel and Apostolic based.

The problem is that you have NEVER given a SOLID reason against homosexuality, PC_F. You simply keep on bleating about 'the Apostolic testimony' which gives no SOLID reason at all for two people of the same gender who desire to commit themselves to one another. And that isn't emotion speaking. It's the truth!

Again, you have given NO SOLID reasons whatever for having blown this entire issue out of proportion. You might do better aiming your zeal at the countless divorcees/remarrieds/home-wreckers in your church who actually ARE going against the testimony of Jesus.

Such hypocrisy!

Supernaut · Jul 1, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
Generalized comaprisons? How typical "Where's your evidence," after I post it time after time after time is that!!!

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How typical is that your using this same ol spin that ALL gays are horrid sexual deviants worthy of the torments of the lake of burning sulfer!

You are not even generalizing your celebration of gay behavior in the Church. You are just saying "I feel it's right," and that's your entire argument. And as I have PROVEN time after time after time, BY presenting scripture and history, you have no support from Christian reality to force secularism INTO the Church.

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What is this celebration? I don't recall handing out balloons, cupcakes, and inappropriate content to all the people at church.
I goes beyond "It feels right" PCF. There is a definate distinction between the promicuous lifestyles described in the NT and Church going *MGC's.(notice the same tired ol spin on "secular" as well)

If you can't make the connection of WHY Jude wrote what he wrote, then I'll just give your Church building and organization a wide berth as I go around it, until schism and unrest does its job.

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Seriously? Who are you? I am very well aquainted with the book of Jude. Can you tell me EXACTLY where Jude sends a warning of these horrid homosexuals taking over the Church? Or are you just going to continuously recite these versus that are obviously in reference to NONCHRISTIAN people? Obviously you have absolutely no idea if a homosexual has Christ. All you are doing is focusing on a licentious lifestyle that in no way is applicable to the majority of gays in the Church.

I am using it in exactly the same way. "A different Gospel" is being presented by Gay Activists and just as with Smith and Jones and Mel White, they need to be contended against.

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Wow..what a stretch! Are you serious with this?? You are using the exact same generalization and throwing in your tired spin of "a different Gospel". I agree that we should contend with the real threat of the Church such as Smith and Jones and all the like but, Mel White (though i don't always agree with Soulforce) is hardly presenting a "different Gospel" as he is using the EXACT SAME BOOK AS YOU ARE.

Homosexuality is obvioulsy nothing foreign to the Apostles, the Disciple and Jesus.

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And yet Jesus didn't find it important enough to discuss or condemn. Doesn't that tell you something?

YOUR argument is based only on your personal feelings. How is that any different than J. Smith? You have no Biblical leg to stand on while introducing this strange new doctrine INTO and onto The Church.

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Wrong again. My arguement is using compassion versus condemnation. I have every Biblical leg to stand on. In fact, I find it strange that you have just proclaimed that Homosexuality is nothing new but yet, now it is "strange and new"?? Is the leg you standing on evolving right under you?

But then again, as a new religion, you have my support as an American to do as you wilteth. I have no say on that, as a Christian. Jesus didn't mention a word about opposing other religions. He just came to present His message based on the scriptures and His actions to prove His point.

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"Wilteth" was never a word. Jesus also didn't mention anything whatsoever about homosexuality. He presented a wonderful message eraticating the old "purity laws" that you still adhere to. He presented his message based on COMPASSION and His words/actions prove His point.

Then again, I'm comfortable with the parable of the wheat and the weeds. But notice the weeds are noticed? Notice also that that is very much Jude's point:"I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints." For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality . . .

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I am comforted by your knowledge of the wheat and the weeds parable. Ever notice how the wheat is noticed? As Jude said, we are to contend for the Faith. With that said, focus on the Moonies and the Smiths and Jesus Seminar folk of our time.

Exactly how evil and bent is your common nonpromiscuous gay man on ruining the Church? How, by their attending church, are they changing Gods Grace into a license for immorality? If all you have for proof of their licentious lifestyles is generalized promiscuity with nothing that directly speaks ill of a MGC, then what is your hope in all this? How are you spreading the good word by condemning?

"But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

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So now we are using "scoffers" to refer to the gays? How are they "scoffing" when they commit to one another in a monogamous relationship? How are they "scoffing" when they are praying to Jesus? How are they "scoffing" when they donate money to the Church to feed the hungry? How are they "scoffing" when they provide clothing for the homeless? How are these actions divisive? How are they doing wrong by any of this?

Are you able to see the spirit inside of men? What leg do you have to stand on to decipher between who has the Spirit and who does not? I know you will say "By testing their word" and that is hogwash. You truly haven't a clue as to who has the Spirit unless they are blatantly lieing about their belief in Christ.

But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

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We are waiting!

Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

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Show compassion...got it...spread the Good News!...got it...show compassion and caution....got it....don't get wrapped up beliefs of unchristian folk.....GOT IT!!!

I'm just making my points using the correct method.

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Yeah...about that...better luck next time.

*Monogamous Gay Couple (MGC)

David Brider · Jul 2, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
Who has a problem with that? "Gay" is nothing more than a neologism...

How old does a word usage have to be before it stops being a neologism? "Gay" as in "homosexual" goes back at least to the early 20th century.

...to try to mask a behavior that Christians should not engage in.

How many more times? Gay/homosexual is a sexual orientation, not a behaviour. Repeat until you understand that.

David.

mpok1519 · Jul 2, 2009

conditional love isnt Godly love.

anyone's parents' love is unconditional.

why not God's?

Supernaut · Jul 2, 2009

mpok1519 said:
conditional love isnt Godly love.

anyone's parents' love is unconditional.

why not God's?

Amen.

Norbert L · Jul 2, 2009

mpok1519 said:
conditional love isnt Godly love.

anyone's parents' love is unconditional.

why not God's?

Should the child's love to their parent be unconditonal?

"Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?" (Job 40:8)

Ethics and morality of the entire human race does not necessarily reflect the opinions expressed by the author of the Bible. Look at the morally outstanding man Jesus loved, who thoroughly lived the commandments quoted to Him. That man turned down Jesus' offer because there was one thing near and dear to his heart that he wouldn't give up. Something that would be a cross to him. (Mr 10:21)

God can't possibly be asking people to give up and deny themselves as far as acting on their sexual desires is concerned, can He? (Heterosexuals are included, they can just hide behind Adam and Eve a lot better) After all God created some men and women with same sex orientation, it would be ethically and morally wrong for Him to be imposing the restriction that they can't have monogamous same sex and marriage now.

"Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?"

Polycarp_fan · Jul 2, 2009

KCKID said:
The problem is that you have NEVER given a SOLID reason against homosexuality, PC_F.

I have presented scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture. And you respond: Where's your evidence?

Your only reply is what you feel personally and emotionally on the issue. And of course connected with so many personal insults directed at me as well.

You simply keep on bleating about 'the Apostolic testimony' which gives no SOLID reason at all for two people of the same gender who desire to commit themselves to one another.

There is NO SUCH thing as same-gender marriage. REFER TO Jesus on the subject. You cannot prove same-sex marriage from silence.

And that isn't emotion speaking. It's the truth!

Not according to scriptural evidence.

Again, you have given NO SOLID reasons whatever for having blown this entire issue out of proportion.

Celebrating sin and sinning is a very big issue in the Church. I have presented "evidence" hundreds of times. You just ignore it or reject it.

You might do better aiming your zeal at the countless divorcees/remarrieds/home-wreckers in your church who actually ARE going against the testimony of Jesus.

This thread is about Gays in the Church.

Start another thread about celebrating adultery, divorce and promiscuity in the Church and we'll see what scripture and history has to say about that.

Such hypocrisy!

Use the word hypocrisy on marriage. Marriage to Jesus, God, "in the beginning," and to the Disciples and Apostles was a man and a woman.

Now "hypocrisy" would be supporting something that is not a man and woman and saying that that is marriage.

I don't understand why you have such great animosity towards me.

Polycarp_fan · Jul 2, 2009

Norbert L said:
Should the child's love to their parent be unconditonal?

"Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?" (Job 40:8)

Ethics and morality of the entire human race does not necessarily reflect the opinions expressed by the author of the Bible. Look at the morally outstanding man Jesus loved, who thoroughly lived the commandments quoted to Him. That man turned down Jesus' offer because there was one thing near and dear to his heart that he wouldn't give up. Something that would be a cross to him. (Mr 10:21)

What if that rich man's name was Philemon? And is this not a good place to view the giving up of sexual orientation to follow Jesus? How hard is it to love someone of the opposite sex?

God can't possibly be asking people to give up and deny themselves as far as acting on their sexual desires is concerned, can He?

That would be a very consistent message of the marriage bed kept undefiled.

(Heterosexuals are included, they can just hide behind Adam and Eve a lot better) After all God created some men and women with same sex orientation, it would be ethically and morally wrong for Him to be imposing the restriction that they can't have monogamous same sex and marriage now.

Where is that position backed by anything written in scripture? It seems you are infusing paganism INTO the Church. The Disciples wrote about the inappropriateness of same-gender sexuality.

"Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?"

Marriage is man and woman to the God of the Bible. Made that way "in the beginning" and not to be altered by man. And Jesus reaffirmed that in exact definition.

Norbert L · Jul 2, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
What if that rich man's name was Philemon? And is this not a good place to view the giving up of sexual orientation to follow Jesus? How hard is it to love someone of the opposite sex?

Where is that position backed by anything written in scripture? It seems you are infusing paganism INTO the Church. The Disciples wrote about the inappropriateness of same-gender sexuality.

I'm not so sure men can better understand themselves when they write something, no more than when they each read Paul.

Has promoting and speaking positively about celebacy become speaking paganism, while somehow heterosexual marriages become something that cannot lust for each other? By the fact that someone is a heterosexual, does that exempt them from commiting sexual immorality on the same spiritual level as a homosexual may?

"...It is good for a man not to touch a woman... but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1Co 7:1,9)

Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. (Col 3:5)

not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God (1Th 4:5)

So when does love become lust? When does having a meal become gluttony? When does ruling over something become its slave? And when does disciplining oneself become does and don'ts?

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

I have meet two homosexual Christians who deny themselves daily and have taken up Christ's cross. They'll be the first to tell someone they're still orientated towards men. But rather than paying close attention to their example, some Christian heterosexuals would no more want to hear about celebacy, that it actually can be a good thing not to touch a woman, as much as they are eager to deal with stopping homosexual activity.

Marriage is man and woman to the God of the Bible. Made that way "in the beginning" and not to be altered by man. And Jesus reaffirmed that in exact definition.

Nor should it be altered spiritually and even unlike gluttony and compareable to their homosexual counterparts, married heterosexual couples don't visibly show signs of harm and dangers of being overweight. That's not to make anyone feel guilty but to "examine yourselves ... how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5)

Supernaut · Jul 2, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
What if that rich man's name was Philemon? And is this not a good place to view the giving up of sexual orientation to follow Jesus? How hard is it to love someone of the opposite sex?

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So now you are advocating sexual conversion therapy for homosexuals?! Why would Jesus ask anyone to forsake a part of themselves (He created btw) to "follow" Him? That just sounds rediculous! How hard is it for all the heterosexuals to love someone of the same sex? We are created the way He created us.

That would be a very consistent message of the marriage bed kept undefiled.

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Still trying to resurrect the purity laws are we??

Where is that position backed by anything written in scripture? It seems you are infusing paganism INTO the Church. The Disciples wrote about the inappropriateness of same-gender sexuality.

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Unfortunately PCF, not everything is found in Scripture pertaining to life. When I went and bought a new Pontiac back in 2006...I was unable to go back and find Scripture to back up the fact that Pontiac was going to be discontinued in 2010(and yes I read the prophecy books too). (BTW that was only an example of how ridiculous this is all getting).

The disciples wrote NOTHING of same gender love. They wrote of promiscuous activities. So now, by your own definition, you are bringing a New Gospel into the Church.

Interesting how I am infusing Secularism, KCKID is infusing Emotionalism, and now Norbert L is infusing Paganism all into YOUR Church...this drama is never ending!!!! Who is next?? And what, pray tell, are THEY going to bring forth into YOUR Church?!

Polycarp_fan · Jul 2, 2009

RevSJamison said:
Polycarp_fan said:

So now you are advocating sexual conversion therapy for homosexuals?!

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I advocate the anatomy, biology and physiology advocating sexuality. It takes activism and agenda and emotionalism out of the mix. With your position anything goes as long as its advocate is really nice about their desires.

Why would Jesus ask anyone to forsake a part of themselves (He created btw) to "follow" Him? That just sounds rediculous! How hard is it for all the heterosexuals to love someone of the same sex? We are created the way He created us.

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If you buy the hype of secularism selling anything goes without sin, sinning, accountability, consequences, guilt or shame. The APA and the ACLU does not override the Gospel for me and about 900,000,000-plus Christians. Liberalism is not spreading around the globe in Christian outreach.

Still trying to resurrect the purity laws are we??

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Interesting that Peter had a dream about foods in those purity laws but not gay sex huh? Do you know how much money a "do as you wilt" Church would make?

Unfortunately PCF, not everything is found in Scripture pertaining to life.

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Prove that. Cellphones and gossip? Modernization does not take truth out of the Gospel.

When I went and bought a new Pontiac back in 2006...I was unable to go back and find Scripture to back up the fact that Pontiac was going to be discontinued in 2010(and yes I read the prophecy books too). (BTW that was only an example of how ridiculous this is all getting).

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"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

- Jesus

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And devaluation is also something Jesus never talked about?

The disciples wrote NOTHING of same gender love.

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Not according to what they wrote.

Gay sex was very common in the outside world. In the Church, the Disiples held to marriage as a man and a woman. As immorality as something to be repented of. Notice how in places like Canada, ROMANS is considered hate speech? That's because almost everyone knows (except, I guess, a core of liberals? No I take that back everyone knows.) that the Apostles wrote negatively about homosexuality. Just because you don''t like what they wrote, how and why, doesn't mean you get to expunge it from scripture. I'd like five or six women in my marriage bed, but that would not be "keeping it pure" as Jesus taught it and the Apostles held to that teaching now would it? Notice I couldn't be a Deacon or an Elder if I had multiple wives? can't be a Pastor with unruly kids as well.

Please stop insulting and bashing me and show where there is OPENLY gay supporting scripture? Just one or two places would be good for your position to find backup. Otherwise, why are you not calling for this subject to be laid to rest in the liberal denominations that celebrate gay culture?

They wrote of promiscuous activities. So now, by your own definition, you are bringing a New Gospel into the Church.

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Arsenokoitai speaks of gay activism 21st century every bit as much as it does Nero's world. Jude writes about it. Peter writes about. Jesus taught that marriage is a man and a woman. He never mentioned altering what God made immutable. My representation of the Gospel is sound.

Interesting how I am infusing Secularism, KCKID is infusing Emotionalism, and now Norbert L is infusing Paganism all into YOUR Church...this drama is never ending!!!! Who is next??

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". . . and homosexuals, which some of you were," says Paul. I have more than proven my case from scripture. And why is it, I wonder, that you and your two team-members are not just countering my use of orthodoxy with liberal MCC theology? You can garner all you want from soulforce.org as well.

And what, pray tell, are THEY going to bring forth into YOUR Church?!

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Since "YOUR Church" is refernecing "MY" use of The Church as being The Church universal, the answer would be: The Gay Agenda.

That's obvious.

Sir, this is hardly about just refusing the teachings of marriage by Jesus and the Apostles. There is a whole reordering process that is attached.

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

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And why is that Jude?

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

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Deny Jesus Jude? What do you mean?

"Have you not read (that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?

"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?"

He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.
"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

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And what was it that Jesus was talking about?

The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."
But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.

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To whom is "it" given to become followers of Jesus?

Yes Reverend, Jesus never said a word about same-gender marriage.

It doesn't exist.

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Polycarp_fan · Jul 2, 2009

David Brider said:
How old does a word usage have to be before it stops being a neologism? "Gay" as in "homosexual" goes back at least to the early 20th century.

The behavior goes back even further. In Christian reality all the way to the beginning of the Church with Nero.

Notice how he though of the Christians?

How many more times? Gay/homosexual is a sexual orientation, not a behaviour.

So a bank robber is a bank robber if he/she just keeps the thoughts and feelings in their mind?

Repeat until you understand that.

I'll repeat it until you agree that the "behavior" is unacceptable to celebrate in The Church.

Polycarp_fan · Jul 2, 2009

Andreusz said:
You keep using this phrase, Polly. Do you believe it is grammatically correct Early Modern English, or are you just trying to be amusing?

I am using it for effect.

And it works everytime as you prove.

Polycarp_fan · Jul 2, 2009

RevSJamison said:
Polycarp_fan said:

How typical is that your using this same ol spin that ALL gays are horrid sexual deviants worthy of the torments of the lake of burning sulfer!

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My spin? I am the one keeping to scripture. And THAT position, is only in regards to celebrating and encouraging sin and sinning, and to get out if it by just using worldy morality and redefining it IN THE CHURCH, IS WRONG TO DO.

What is this celebration? I don't recall handing out balloons, cupcakes, and inappropriate content to all the people at church.

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Marriage is a celebration. Remember Jesus at one? It's a celebration.

I goes beyond "It feels right" PCF.

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Excuse me? It is based exclusivley on "If it feels good do it." The hippies sixties now a theology.

There is a definate distinction between the promicuous lifestyles described in the NT and Church going *MGC's.(notice the same tired ol spin on "secular" as well)

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same-sex marriage is exclusively secular. It was never in the Hebrew camp, never in the Christian world and never even mentioned by jesus. Notice the no spin zone?

Seriously? Who are you?

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I'm just a guy debating people on the internet for practice on what we deal with in the real world. Soulforce will be at my Church's doors sooner or later. And our youth are already suffering from gay activism.

I am very well aquainted with the book of Jude.

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So you say.

Can you tell me EXACTLY where Jude sends a warning of these horrid homosexuals taking over the Church?

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OK:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.

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Ezekiel connected those dots before Jude did. Want the verse?

Or are you just going to continuously recite these versus that are obviously in reference to NONCHRISTIAN people?

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THAT'S MY POINT AND MY POSITION. How many times do I also have to write that I am not concerned at all with pagans and non-Christians. It is when these things are coming INTO THE CHURCH that I should contend for the faith.

Obviously you have absolutely no idea if a homosexual has Christ.

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I am not questioning anyones being a Christian. If they say they are, then the rule is they are. You seem to be saying Christians don't sin if they don't want their sins to be called sin.

All you are doing is focusing on a licentious lifestyle that in no way is applicable to the majority of gays in the Church.

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That's your opinion.

Wow..what a stretch! Are you serious with this?? You are using the exact same generalization and throwing in your tired spin of "a different Gospel".

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Generalizations? I pin-point issues.

I agree that we should contend with the real threat of the Church such as Smith and Jones and all the like but, Mel White (though i don't always agree with Soulforce) is hardly presenting a "different Gospel" as he is using the EXACT SAME BOOK AS YOU ARE.

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How is there any difference between Smith's new Christian Church and White's? Both preach a different Gospel.

And yet Jesus didn't find it important enough to discuss or condemn. Doesn't that tell you something?

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He mentioned the sabbath, food and left marriage as a man and a woman. There is no such thing as same-gender marriage in Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish religion. Jesus didn't talk about Temple Prostitutes either. Follow your logic.

Wrong again. My arguement is using compassion versus condemnation.

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Whoa, where's the compassion for Christians trying with all of the hearts to TURN from sin and a worldy life and lifestyle, ONLY TO BE confronted IN THE CHURCH with people that not only refuse to repent, but make some kind of a congenital excuse for sin????????????????? AND THOSE people encourage others to engage in gay behavior "if" they feel like it. Even YOU are saying that is OK.

I have every Biblical leg to stand on. In fact, I find it strange that you have just proclaimed that Homosexuality is nothing new but yet, now it is "strange and new"?? Is the leg you standing on evolving right under you?

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Nice try to spin my position, but I am connecting that gay sex is nothing new, it was never clebrated by Christians in the New Testament witness and it is NEW and alotogether different NOW that it is. And it always is without a shred of scriptural support.

"Wilteth" was never a word.

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"Do as thou wilt, though harm none." Sound familiar?

That is NOT Christian reality.

Jesus also didn't mention anything whatsoever about homosexuality.

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"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniellet the reader understand then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowand never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible.

See, I have told you ahead of time.

- Jesus, Matthew 24

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He presented a wonderful message eraticating the old "purity laws" that you still adhere to.

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I do? Peter had a dream from God about foods that were unclean, but he never changed marriage and sexual purity. Ever notice that? In fact he went on to preach about proper sexual behavior for Christians. No need to guess that it is man and woman marriage.

He presented his message based on COMPASSION and His words/actions prove His point.

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Compassion does not mean to support a person's sinning.

I am comforted by your knowledge of the wheat and the weeds parable. Ever notice how the wheat is noticed?

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The wheat is Christians desiring to live contrite and humble lives for Christ. I see no pride parades every by the wheat. But weeds? They always seem to look so pretty out in the lawn.

As Jude said, we are to contend for the Faith. With that said, focus on the Moonies and the Smiths and Jesus Seminar folk of our time.

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Start a thread about Moonies and Mormons "in the Church" and I'll use the same scriptural methods as I do with gay sex to show the inappropriateness to celebrate their demands.

Exactly how evil and bent is your common nonpromiscuous gay man on ruining the Church? How, by their attending church, are they changing Gods Grace into a license for immorality?

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PM me and I'll tell you.

If all you have for proof of their licentious lifestyles is generalized promiscuity with nothing that directly speaks ill of a MGC, then what is your hope in all this?

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Same-gender marriage celebrates and encourages homosexuality in the Church.

How are you spreading the good word by condemning?

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I am encouraging the people in the Church that DO NOT want to make excuses for sin to live in that light. An alter call is not hate speech. Yet anyway.

So now we are using "scoffers" to refer to the gays? How are they "scoffing" when they commit to one another in a monogamous relationship?

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Let's see how I am treated by the gay activists (including you) here?

scoff (sk

f, skôf)
v. scoffed, scoff·ing, scoffs
v.tr. To mock at or treat with derision.

v.intr. To show or express derision or scorn.

n. An expression of derision or scorn.

How are they "scoffing" when they are praying to Jesus? How are they "scoffing" when they donate money to the Church to feed the hungry? How are they "scoffing" when they provide clothing for the homeless? How are these actions divisive? How are they doing wrong by any of this?

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None of that has anything to do with celebrating gay sex. Nothing. Ever read the parable of the Good Samaritan?

Are you able to see the spirit inside of men?

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No.

What leg do you have to stand on to decipher between who has the Spirit and who does not?

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The legs of the Gospel.

I know you will say "By testing their word" and that is hogwash.

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By their fruit you will know them.

Encouraging and celebrating sin is a fruit. It's a metaphor. A parable. I don't think Jesus thought it was hogwash he was preaching there.

You truly haven't a clue as to who has the Spirit unless they are blatantly lieing about their belief in Christ.

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That's right. And how do we show or know who is lying about their belief in Christ? How about we start with the Gospel and then what the Disciples and Apostles teach about that????????

We are waiting!

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You will wait an eternity for me to celebrate sin and sinning in the Church or outside if it. My own OR anyone else's.

Show compassion...got it...spread the Good News!...got it...show compassion and caution....got it....don't get wrapped up beliefs of unchristian folk.....GOT IT!!!

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What are the belifs of unChristian folk? Let's start with Gay rights shall we?

Yeah...about that...better luck next time.

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Luck has nothing to do with truth.

*Monogamous Gay Couple (MGC)

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No such thing anywhere in the Bible. But as you've said, you know that.

Supernaut · Jul 2, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
I advocate the anatomy, biology and physiology advocating sexuality. It takes activism and agenda and emotionalism out of the mix. With your position anything goes as long as its advocate is really nice about their desires.

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And with all that you still deny that homosexuality is genetic? There is no activism or agenda on my part. Do not confuse emotionalism with compassion. Anything goes isn't the policy here. I look at sincerety not desires. If a MGC wants a relationship with Christ, how are they bringing the bath houses and parades into the Church if they have nothing to do with them?

If you buy the hype of secularism selling anything goes without sin, sinning, accountability, consequences, guilt or shame. The APA and the ACLU does not override the Gospel for me and about 900,000,000-plus Christians. Liberalism is not spreading around the globe in Christian outreach.

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I cannot understand why you would say this. If I am advocating for the Christian MGC's then, how is there no accountability? They are held to the same standards as the rest of us. I certainly do not listen to the ACLU.

Interesting that Peter had a dream about foods in those purity laws but not gay sex huh?

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Interesting that Peter didn't have a dream about circumcision yet it is clearly ok to be uncircumcised in the Church.

Prove that. Cellphones and gossip? Modernization does not take truth out of the Gospel.

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Abortion is never discussed in the Bible. Proven.

And devaluation is also something Jesus never talked about?

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Cars and modern technology are not what he had in mind but, nice try.

Not according to what they wrote.

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So you cannot discern between love and sex/lust?

Just because you don''t like what they wrote, how and why, doesn't mean you get to expunge it from scripture. I'd like five or six women in my marriage bed, but that would not be "keeping it pure" as Jesus taught it and the Apostles held to that teaching now would it? Notice I couldn't be a Deacon or an Elder if I had multiple wives? can't be a Pastor with unruly kids as well.

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It's not that I like it or not. The fact is that there is an undeniable difference between a MGC and a promiscuos wh*re. If there is nothing to "expunge" then what am I expunging?

Please stop insulting and bashing me and show where there is OPENLY gay supporting scripture? Just one or two places would be good for your position to find backup. Otherwise, why are you not calling for this subject to be laid to rest in the liberal denominations that celebrate gay culture?

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Don't play the victim card it doesn't suit you. You wanted a debate and you got it. You cannot show me anything scriptural that condemns a monogamous gay couple. There is plenty that condemns licentious behavior of course. I am not denying that. But again there is an absolute clear distinction between the two.

Arsenokoitai speaks of gay activism 21st century every bit as much as it does Nero's world. Jude writes about it. Peter writes about. Jesus taught that marriage is a man and a woman. He never mentioned altering what God made immutable. My representation of the Gospel is sound.

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Arsenokoitai speaks of temple prostitution. Period. If Paul was so adamant to condemn homosexuality, there were plenty of common Greek words to be used. Jude does not address in any way a monogamous gay couple.
Jesus' description of marriage was not for gender distinction but for monogamy.

". . . and homosexuals, which some of you were," says Paul. I have more than proven my case from scripture. And why is it, I wonder, that you and your two team-members are not just countering my use of orthodoxy with liberal MCC theology? You can garner all you want from soulforce.org as well.

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And he is clearly speaking of those who are straight and and have gay sex for some advantageous reason. You know the gay inappropriate content industry and the fact that it is chalk full of those very same heterosexual men that are doing inappropriate content simply for the money. It is Idolotrous and definately what Paul is referencing. So now any form of compassion illicits accusations of affiliations with the MCC? A church I fully DO NOT support? Thanks for your permission to use Soulforce as well but I will pass.

Since "YOUR Church" is refernecing "MY" use of The Church as being The Church universal, the answer would be: The Gay Agenda.

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You focus on one aspect of a "culture" and one that most homosexuals choose not to associate with and use that to generalize over the whole gay populace?

Sir, this is hardly about just refusing the teachings of marriage by Jesus and the Apostles.

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Jesus used examples of marriage to support monogamy and denounce divorce as written in Matthew 19:4-6.

And what was it that Jesus was talking about?To whom is "it" given to become followers of Jesus?

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Clearly He is speaking of divorce. And those of us who are Christian should understand that divorce is not permissable.

Yes Reverend, Jesus never said a word about same-gender marriage. It doesn't exist.

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And as you clearly stated in your own words, homosexuality is nothing new and gay marriage has been going on throughout the centuries starting with the Romans.
So it seems like you are flip-flopping to whatever best supports your statement at the time.
Jesus said nothing of same sex marriage because it wasn't an issue for Him.

KCKID · Jul 3, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
I'll repeat it until you agree that the "behavior" is unacceptable to celebrate in The Church.

So THIS is what I'm missing? I have thus far in my life never attended a church that has celebrated 'sexual behavior' whether it be 'straight' or 'gay'. Where IS this church?

Sounds like it might work, though ...get a few more butts in the pews. Maybe we could make it a once a month thing. I'll make the suggestion for such a celebration at the next church board meeting.

David Brider · Jul 3, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
So a bank robber is a bank robber if he/she just keeps the thoughts and feelings in their mind?

A bank robber is a bank robber if he or she robs a bank.

A homosexual is a homosexual if he or she is physically and romantically attracted to people of the same gender as him or herself.

Notice, the first involves a behaviour. The second doesn't.

I'll repeat it until you agree that the "behavior" is unacceptable to celebrate in The Church.

I can only echo what KCKID has written - I know of no church that "celebrates" any kind of sexual behaviour. I suspect the reality is that you don't either...

David.

David Brider · Jul 3, 2009

Polycarp_fan said:
What if that rich man's name was Philemon? And is this not a good place to view the giving up of sexual orientation to follow Jesus? How hard is it to love someone of the opposite sex?

Depends what kind of love one's talking about. But if you're talking about the kind of romantic love that's part of a sexual orientation, I don't believe that's as instantly "switch-off-and-on-able" as you seem to be suggesting. One meets someone, and one either is physically/romantically attracted to them, or one isn't. One doesn't choose to be physically/romantically attracted to someone, and that would be what it would mean to "give up sexual orientation to follow Jesus" - to make choices about things that are too much wired into us at a subconscious level. One can certainly make choices about whether to act on those feelings of attraction (basically, to commit to a life of celibacy), but that raises the question of whether celibacy is for everybody, or just for those who are specifically called to it.

David.

Norbert L · Jul 3, 2009

RevSJamison said:
... and now Norbert L is infusing Paganism all into YOUR Church...... YOUR Church?!

It's not as if the pagan gay community doesn't also see the hyprocisy for a homosexual to call themself a Christian without acknowledging that they have to repent of same sex, wether it's monogamous or not.

Also historical Christianity showed Marcion had enough common sense to either start ripping out pages and/or re-writing what a man doesn't like within the Bible, then preach another gospel and thereby reveal his shame. And it's not as if history isn't repeating itself when people today show it's completely possible to keep the Bible intact and accomplish the same thing.

As far as whose Church, in essence there are only two. There's is Christ's church and then there are Marcion's churches.

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