Not a debate...why pray the Rosary?

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
"[The Shepherd said:] But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Hermas was alive when some of the Apostles were still alive. Why didn't they condemn him? Another note: Hermas was around in A.D. 80 (when the Bible didn't even exist yet), we are around in 2009. Who was closer to the Apostles? Who was around during when some of the Apostles were still living (for example, the Apostle John who outlived Hermas and died in A.D. 90)?

Another from St. Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 208:
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Even though there are many more, I will end with this one:
Origen:
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

These dont say he prayed to angels nor saints...it suggests that they pray along side him...to the Father no doubt.

Yep, to the Father of course. Still, read them more closely. My bedtime is coming up soon, so I have to get off soon and won't cover all of them.

But, look at what Origen said:
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

I repeat: "but also the angels" (in heaven) and "as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep."

So, we pray to the saints who then pray to the Father with our requests. This is true Catholic intercession. Sometimes the wording gets confusing, for example, "pray to the saints." Well, obviously to have our requests granted, the saints then pray to the Father which is, therefore, the saints intercessing on our behalf.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

Thanks and enjoy!!!

RevAngel · Jul 2, 2009

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

I honor my Mother and Father, I honor the Law and the Armed forces, I even Honor the Churches of all types that preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, I honor Mary and the Saints of the world past and present....But....
I will never see a reason to pray to any of those things or people.
My intercessor is Jesus and the Holy Ghost...who is a better intercessor than Him?

Good night teacher

God Bless you
angel

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
Thank you for your patience with me...lol

Don't worry about it. I'm just glad that I'm discussing with someone who is open-minded. There are so many non-Catholic christians out there that, seriously if you can believe, only learn about my Faith from people and authors of books "about" us within their own denomination and have never read from our point of view. Then they debate me for a "belief" that my Church doesn't even believe in.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

RevAngel · Jul 2, 2009

Cardinal John H. Newman said:
Don't worry about it. I'm just glad that I'm discussing with someone who is open-minded. There are so many non-Catholic christians out there that, seriously if you can believe, only learn about my Faith from people and authors of books "about" us within their own denomination and have never read from our point of view. Then they debate me for a "belief" that my Church doesn't even believe in.

Cardinal Newman

I am smart enough to know that I am not very smart!....lol
I am open to hearing all sides.

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
By the way...I'm not a protestant, not a baptist, not an evangelical, none of those thing am I. I am a Christian. In love and completely sold out to the will of our Heavenly Father in His Son Jesus the Christ, as I learn to follow the Spirit.
Amen

That's always a good thing for God is Love. Well, maye a little about me:

I am a 17-year-old Catholic christian who doesn't have any degrees in theology or anything else yet (sadly enough). So, as you ask me questions, sometimes it may be awhile before I catch up. Lol. So thank you very much for your patience.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
Cardinal Newman

I honor my Mother and Father, I honor the Law and the Armed forces, I even Honor the Churches of all types that preach the Gospel of the Kingdom, I honor Mary and the Saints of the world past and present....But....
I will never see a reason to pray to any of those things or people.
My intercessor is Jesus and the Holy Ghost...who is a better intercessor than Him?

Good night teacher

God Bless you
angel

My intercessor is Jesus and the Holy Ghost too. 1 Tim. 2:5

The Catholic Church teaches that intercession to the Saints as well as Mary is an option. The Rosary is an option. Catholics aren't required to pray the Rosary nor pray to the Saints either. Just an option.

For example, I pray to (all three) in the Trinity in my daily prayers and I normally pray the Rosary once every two or so months.

You may wonder, why would we teach prayer to the saints if Christ is the main intercessor, well, because the Bible teaches it as an option too.

1 Timothy 2:5 says that Christ is the only mediator between us and God. So prayer to Christ is definitely required. However, when you go back to 1 Timothy 2:1 and read up to verse five, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:14). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christs role as mediator.

Good night, hope to continue this conversation tomorrow. :wave:

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

RevAngel · Jul 2, 2009

Cardinal John H. Newman said:
My intercessor is Jesus and the Holy Ghost too. 1 Tim. 2:5

The Catholic Church teaches that intercession to the Saints as well as Mary is an option. The Rosary is an option. Catholics aren't required to pray the Rosary nor pray to the Saints either. Just an option.

For example, I pray to (all three) in the Trinity in my daily prayers and I normally pray the Rosary once every two or so months.

You may wonder, why would we teach prayer to the saints if Christ is the main intercessor, well, because the Bible teaches it as an option too.

1 Timothy 2:5 says that Christ is the only mediator between us and God. So prayer to Christ is definitely required. However, when you go back to 1 Timothy 2:1 and read up to verse five, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:14). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christs role as mediator.

Good night, hope to continue this conversation tomorrow.

Cardinal Newman

You really need to look at the context of the people that intercede. It is always living saints that are in the Body of Christ. The Bible Never tells Christians (or anyone) to pray to people in heaven. As a matter of fact Mary is not ever mentioned as a saint or a person to be prayed to at all.

Matthew 12:47-50 (Someone told him, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") [48] But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" [49] And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. [50] For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother."

MamaZ · Jul 2, 2009

Cardinal John H. Newman said:
Yes it does.

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Show me where scripture teaches us that those whom have went home to the Lord are alive unto us..

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:14, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:3032, Eph. 6:1820, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

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In Pauls writings he was not asking those whom had already went home with the Lord to pray for him. He was asking those who were here on earth to pray for him. Do you see where He ever asked Abraham to pray for him? Or Samuel to pray for Him? Or even Stephen to pray for Him?

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another persons faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:1518, Mark 9:1729, Luke 8:4955). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

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In the scripture we see that Jesus says that if we agree as touching anything on earth it shall be done for us. The point here is on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:1618). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in Gods presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

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All men here living on this earth that are Christian are the righteous..We carry the very righteousness of Christ the King. For His righteousness has been imputed to all whom believe into Him. So your theory has some flaws.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:1314). Thats something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

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You have yet to prove that these whom are at home with Christ are alive unto us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow

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The bible indicates no such thing.

Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

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How do you know what they do? Have you been there?

In addition, even the Early Church Fathers prayed to the saints as well.
In A.D. 80, Hermas:

"[The Shepherd said:] But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

Hermas was alive when some of the Apostles were still alive. Why didn't they condemn him? Another note: Hermas was around in A.D. 80 (when the Bible didn't even exist yet), we are around in 2009. Who was closer to the Apostles? Who was around during when some of the Apostles were still living (for example, the Apostle John who outlived Hermas and died in A.D. 90)?

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Who cares when a man was around. For men wither and fade away..John spent the last years of His life on an Island.. LOL.. Just because a man lived at the time of an Apostle does not make their teachings correct. For we read in scripture that false teachers were invading the church.

Another from St. Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 208:
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).

Even though there are many more, I will end with this one:
Origen:
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Cardinal Newman

Thanks and Enjoy!!!

You have yet to prove through the scriptures which is the breathe of God and contains nothing but truth that those whom are with Christ are alive unto us.

polishbeast · Jul 2, 2009

MamaZ said:
You have yet to prove through the scriptures which is the breathe of God and contains nothing but truth that those whom are with Christ are alive unto us.

During the Transfiguration, the three apostles saw Moses and Elijah. God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. The Saints in Heaven are more truly alive than those on earth.

MamaZ · Jul 2, 2009

polishbeast said:
During the Transfiguration, the three apostles saw Moses and Elijah. God is not a God of the dead, but of the living. The Saints in Heaven are more truly alive than those on earth.

Yup they saw them speaking not to them but to Christ. Notice also that they did not speak unto them either but spoke unto Christ. How did they see them? Because Christ allowed them to see them. And who were they? The law and the Prophets.. Pretty important.. More truly alive as in how?

RevAngel · Jul 2, 2009

MamaZ as you can see there is no answer that will ever show that we are to pray to ANY entity alive or dead in this realm or any other. All honor, respect, worship, adoration is due Only to God Almighty YHWH.

As we see in the Ten Commandments right out of Exodus 20:
1And God spake all these words, saying,

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

-------------------
Matthew 6
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
I am smart enough to know that I am not very smart!....lol
I am open to hearing all sides.

Same here. Lol.

Except that you seem to only want to hear your own side.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

Rhamiel · Jul 2, 2009

i thought this thread was not for debate?
you asked why we pray the rosary and we answered you

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
You really need to look at the context of the people that intercede. It is always living saints that are in the Body of Christ. The Bible Never tells Christians (or anyone) to pray to people in heaven. As a matter of fact Mary is not ever mentioned as a saint or a person to be prayed to at all.

Matthew 12:47-50 (Someone told him, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") [48] But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" [49] And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. [50] For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother."

It does too. As we already talked about the definition of intercession over the other pages and then, intercession is acceptable to God in 1 Tim. 2:1-5.

With Matthew 12:47-50, I completely agree with you on that verse too. But what you also must understand is that Mary, His Mother; God conceived Jesus in the Virgin Mother Mary to come, through her, into this world. So, she has a special place as His mother. This is why we call Mary the Mother of God (God the Son, Jesus). This is why Matthew 12:47-50 doesn't contradict intercession but rather supports it.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

Rhamiel said:
i thought this thread was not for debate?
you asked why we pray the rosary and we answered you

Very good point. I gave a completely biblical support and historical support but you continued you did make it a debate.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

MamaZ said:
You have yet to prove through the scriptures which is the breathe of God and contains nothing but truth that those whom are with Christ are alive unto us.

Why are you making this a debate? I have only been showing my Church's biblical interpretation and ancient historicalness of intercession to the saints and to Mary. If you don't like, well, too bad. Tell it too Allen Hunt if you want.

Even though all of your assumptions have all easily been refuted before, I sense that you are here just to argue and debate. So, I won't answer your questions but will continue with Rev. Angel. I hope he's not like the way you are acting.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

P.S. Luke 20:38 says "Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."
Matt. 22:32 says "'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
And:
Mark 12:27 says "He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Cardinal John H. Newman · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
MamaZ as you can see there is no answer that will ever show that we are to pray to ANY entity alive or dead in this realm or any other. All honor, respect, worship, adoration is due Only to God Almighty YHWH.

As we see in the Ten Commandments right out of Exodus 20:
1And God spake all these words, saying,

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

-------------------
Matthew 6
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Once again, your knowledge comes up short. As you have shown here, you only want to hear what you only want to hear. Bummer, Christ's one and only Church will continue to move on despite your arrogance. For the Church compiled the Bible, therefore the Bible is a Catholic book made for Catholics, who would know it better, you or Catholics. Let the Church march on!!! :priest:

You seem so convinced which is not wise of you because you take verses out of context and twist them the way you want them to mean. Too bad, this discussion has become a debate. It's almost as if you wanted it be that way, which would make the name of your thread a lie to all Catholics passing by. I have come to the conclusion, that with your extremely weak arguments, and your extreme stubborness, I will waste no more time and effort here.

If you don't like what I am saying, well, too bad, tell it to Dr. Francis Beckwith if you want.

Cardinal Newman :crossrc:

P.S. Matthew 6:7 says vain repetitions, not repetitions. Stop taking it out of context. If you don't like this either, tell it to Patty Bonds, or Steve Ray, or Marcus Grodi, or etc.......

polishbeast · Jul 2, 2009

RevAngel said:
All honor, respect, worship, adoration is due Only to God Almighty YHWH.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Hmmmm

I think you are trying to unjustly attack our belief for praying the rosary. You say it takes away from giving all honor, respect, worship, and adoration to God. Yet He tells us to honor our father and mother. Does that take away from giving all honor to God? No. In the same way we pray to Rosary to get closer to God, and thus worship Him even more than without it.

MamaZ · Jul 2, 2009

Does the Lord speak back to you as you pray the rosary?

polishbeast · Jul 2, 2009

MamaZ said:
Does the Lord speak back to you as you pray the rosary?

I feel the Holy Spirit within me, allowing me to reflect on the Gospels and get a closer sense of Jesus' life bringing me closer to Jesus as well. Mary intercedes for me to bring me what graces and virtues I need to live a holier life that is more pleasing to God. And the Holy Spirit brings me those gifts.

And the Father also speaks to me, as I pray the Our Father as a part of the Rosary. It makes me more in tune with the entire Trinity strengthening my relationship with the Trinity.

Not a debate...why pray the Rosary?

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