How do we solve.....

the particular baptist · Jun 18, 2009

NoRaptureBaptist said:
Can we blame Satan for the decline in ORTHODOX, ie the correct Way, christianity?

God allows/decrees all that comes to pass for His purposes. We have His revealed will and decrees in His Word but there are His hidden purposes and decrees that we may not know until we are in glory.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

Hentenza · Jun 18, 2009

NoRaptureBaptist said:
Same with my church...my pastor's unwavering reformed viewpoint and expository, verse by verse preaching is a godsend and the main reason I will stick with it despite his teaching of a trival rapture.
I thank God everday that I joined a church, along with my wife(and her kids attend as well) that did not kick out the pastor for being true to the Word of God and has the balls to present it properly.

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 18, 2009

thefivesolas said:
God allows/decrees all that comes to pass for His purposes. We have His revealed will and decrees in His Word but there are His hidden purposes and decrees that we may not know until we are in glory.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will

Well I agree, but I guess it makes my question moot eh?

the particular baptist · Jun 18, 2009

NoRaptureBaptist said:
Well I agree, but I guess it makes my question moot eh?

I dont think so brother, we have His revealed will in His Word. There are plenty instructions and principles to guide us when considering your topic.

Take for instance the early churches while Apostle Peter was still here. The congregations and fellowships began experiencing growth, people leaving, ect... and church elders were concerned about the fidelity of distinguishing marks and characteristics of christians, so they went to Patmos where Apostle John was exiled and asked him to write to the brethren about this very subject. All of 1 John goes into great detail about the distinguishing marks of true genuine believers, and false professors, leaving zero ambiguity about what is and what is not a true christian.

For instance,

1John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1John 2:3-6 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

1John 2:11 But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1Jn 2:15-16 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions--is not from the Father but is from the world.

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

1John 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

1John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning

1John 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

1John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

I might add, that John also wrote these things for the assurance of true believers. Professing christians that do not mirror these passages have no real assurance, despite what the date in the back of their bible says.

1John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Jerrell · Jun 18, 2009

"Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" 2 Peter 3:3,4.

2 Timothy 3:1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come"

2 Timothy 3:13 "Evil and false men will become worse and worse, using deceit and themselves overcome by deceit"

People just dont believe anymore, they are not hearing his Gospel, atleast here in the Western World.

TimRout · Jun 18, 2009

NoRaptureBaptist said:
IMHO it goes beyond this...church growth is all played out...I'm talking about church shrinkage here...and I know for a fact that solid bible believing christians are leaving churches left and right...the saved are leaving for some reason.

I realize this might seem a bit simplistic, but put simply --- genuine believers who are properly trained in the Scriptures simply DO NOT leave a solid Bible preaching, Christ honoring church without a very good reason.

Now then, there are plenty of well polished fakers who will leave the best of churches for any number of reasons, but that doesn't make their departure biblically valid...or tragic. If they want to leave, let them go. Let's face it, mature Christians like to talk things out, so if they have a legitimate gripe I can expect to hear about it long before they pack their bags and eject. I'm sorry brother, I just don't buy it. We train our people to be biblically mature and we expect them to behave thusly.

NoRaptureBaptist said:
Don't tell me it's not happening today cause it is....I know people who have done it, and their reasons are very widely varied...from I don't like Calvinism, to I don't like the look of the building to I don't like that the pastor preaches a rapture...all of those reasons, some very petty are not proof of any of them not being "the elect"(meaning some of them don't even know they are "the elect" due to ignorance of the doctrines of Grace) IMHO. It must go way beyond soteriological and eschatological, and even ecclisiastical boundaries here....

Not liking Calvinism is not a valid reason for leaving a church. Indeed, it suggests gross immaturity or even unregeneration. If someone leaves our church because they are offended by the doctrines of grace, we will certainly pray for them, but we will never adjust our ministry to accomodate them. People leave biblically sound churches for many reasons --- most of them invalid. Of course, if someone is attending a biblically unsound church, he SHOULD leave.

Bottom line: The Bridge Bible Church is committed to the preaching of God's Word. We believe the doctrines of grace to be the bedrock of the gospel and we'll let our little church shrink down to three people a dog and two mice before we'll compromise doctrine. And sadly, when we're talking about the "how to" of church recovery, it ultimately involves doctrinal concession. If a church isn't obeying God, it deserves to disappear. If a church is obeying God, it cannot disappear until the Lord is done with it.

JacksLadder · Jun 19, 2009

If they are elect they will come anyways regardless of what you do or do not do right :sorry:

(I actually have been wondering the answer to this

)

LiturgyInDMinor · Jun 19, 2009

All very good points gents.

thanks.

Andy S. Wright · Jun 19, 2009

Are everyone in the pews truly saved? Of course not. There are tons of false confessions made during an emotional service/camp experience/Billy Graham conference, etc. Those who only have a head knowledge of God will fade out quickly enough. But it is wrong to assume everyone leaving traditional churches are all unsaved. What about the exodus of pastors from the church? Are all of those men and women unsaved?

There are a lot of good, sincere men and women of God who are leaving the church in droves because of a lot of issues within the Body of Christ. There are literally millions of bad church experience stories out there. Everyone here has heard of the corrupt deacon board or the power-mad parishoner or the-Jones-family-is-the-real-power-in-this-church scenario. Politics is the name of the game in most churches and if you don't play the game you are O-U-T.

There is a lot of blame to lay at the feet of everyone in the auditorium from pulpit to pew. However, blaming people, organizations or policies doesn't really deal with the foundational problem. When you boil everything down to its bare essence, the one thing I see in this is the uncontrolled pride of individuals.

The attitude of most church attendees is along these two lines of thought: "I don't like [insert problem/person here] so I'm outta here" or "I want [insert title/ministry/doctrine/position/attendance number/etc here] for myself/my church and no one is going to stand in my way".

The key word in those thought processes is the very first word. I don't think it is a coincidence that word "pride" is centered around the letter "I" (you'll find the letter "I" figures very prominently in the word "sin" too). In short, the Body of Christ is suffering from an epidemic of "I" problems.

If we were truly operating as God instructed us to (1 Corinthians 12:25) I rather doubt we'd be seeing this situation today. I'll be the first to admit my own pride issues. I've been repeatedly hurt in church by God's people. I've seen more church fights and splits than I could ever relate; both as church member and as a pastor. There is a lot of horrible activity being done in the name of Christ in a lot of churches across the world.

As a result of my negative reaction to those things, I am one of those who have walked away from church. I am still a believer in Christ and still have a walk with him but I have a very hard time trusting His people therefore I do not associate with them. I fully admit that this is a failing of mine and it is something God is working on with me. Unfortunately, the worst thing that can happen to a child of God is to be the victim of sheep-on-sheep crime. It's easy to blame the other guy. Much harder to look into yourself to see where you went wrong.

But the bottom line in all of this is we have to look at ourselves and quit blaming everyone around us. That is but one of the many symptoms of pride. I'm right, everyone else is wrong. I want what I want when I want it and I don't care who I hurt to get it. I'm hurt, everyone who hurt me are evil poopy heads and I don't want to have anything else to do with them or anyone who looks, sounds or acts like them. I don't like the situation, I can't change the situation so I'm going to take my toys and go home.

In all of this, the key word, again, is "I". When "I" am in control instead of the "I AM" of scriptures, then what you see is what you're gonna get.

When God is restored as the head of His church, things are going to be a lot different than they are now.

TimRout · Jun 19, 2009

Andy S. Wright said:
Are everyone in the pews truly saved? Of course not. There are tons of false confessions made during an emotional service/camp experience/Billy Graham conference, etc. Those who only have a head knowledge of God will fade out quickly enough. But it is wrong to assume everyone leaving traditional churches are all unsaved. What about the exodus of pastors from the church? Are all of those men and women unsaved?

There are a lot of good, sincere men and women of God who are leaving the church in droves because of a lot of issues within the Body of Christ. There are literally millions of bad church experience stories out there. Everyone here has heard of the corrupt deacon board or the power-mad parishoner or the-Jones-family-is-the-real-power-in-this-church scenario. Politics is the name of the game in most churches and if you don't play the game you are O-U-T.

There is a lot of blame to lay at the feet of everyone in the auditorium from pulpit to pew. However, blaming people, organizations or policies doesn't really deal with the foundational problem. When you boil everything down to its bare essence, the one thing I see in this is the uncontrolled pride of individuals.

The attitude of most church attendees is along these two lines of thought: "I don't like [insert problem/person here] so I'm outta here" or "I want [insert title/ministry/doctrine/position/attendance number/etc here] for my church and no one is going to stand in my way".

The key word in those thought processes is the very first word. I don't think it is a coincidence that word "pride" is centered around the letter "I" (you'll find the letter "I" figures very prominently in the word "sin" too). In short, the Body of Christ is suffering from an epidemic of "I" problems.

If we were truly operating as God instructed us to (1 Corinthians 12:25) I rather doubt we'd be seeing this situation today. I'll be the first to admit my own pride issues. I've been repeatedly hurt in church by God's people. I've seen more church fights and splits than I could ever relate; both as church member and as a pastor. There is a lot of horrible activity being done in the name of Christ in a lot of churches across the world.

As a result of my negative reaction to those things, I am one of those who have walked away from church. I am still a believer in Christ and still have a walk with him but I have a very hard time trusting His people therefore I do not associate with them. I fully admit that this is a failing of mine and it is something God is working on with me. Unfortunately, the worst thing that can happen to a child of God is to be the victim of sheep-on-sheep crime. It's easy to blame the other guy. Much harder to look into yourself to see where you went wrong.

But the bottom line in all of this is we have to look at ourselves and quit blaming everyone around us. That is but one of the many symptoms of pride. I'm right, everyone else is wrong. I want what I want when I want it and I don't care who I hurt to get it. I'm hurt, everyone who hurt me are evil poopy heads and I don't want to have anything else to do with them or anyone who looks, sounds or acts like them. I don't like the situation, I can't change the situation so I'm going to take my toys and go home.

In all of this, the key word, again, is "I". When "I" am in control instead of the "I AM" of scriptures, then what you see is what you're gonna get.

You make some valid and interesting points. Thank-you.

Andy S. Wright said:
When God is restored as the head of His church, things are going to be a lot different than they are now.

This statement presupposes that God is no longer the head of His church. On what biblical basis do you make this claim, and who is respondible for "restoring" God to His rightful place?

Andy S. Wright · Jun 19, 2009

TimRout said:
This statement presupposes that God is no longer the head of His church. On what biblical basis do you make this claim...

If you'd walked the last 25 years with me throughout the church landscape you wouldn't ask that question. If Christ truly was the head of the church in all of its manifestations do you think we would be having this conversation about this topic?

TimRout said:
...and who is respondible for "restoring" God to His rightful place?

He'll be "restored" when we humans stop taking control of the church and learn to simply follow him. So, I'll say that'll take place right around the time he comes back for his bride and establishes his physical kingdom on earth.

TimRout · Jun 19, 2009

Andy S. Wright said:
If you'd walked the last 25 years with me throughout the church landscape you wouldn't ask that question. If Christ truly was the head of the church in all of its manifestations do you think we would be having this conversation about this topic?

I asked you for the BIBLICAL basis of your assertion. You have offered an opinion from personal experience. Perhaps you didn't understand my question.

Andy S. Wright said:
He'll be "restored" when we humans stop taking control of the church and learn to simply follow him. So, I'll say that'll take place right around the time he comes back for his bride and establishes his physical kingdom on earth.

So then, human beings are responsible for kicking God out of His church, and He'll only be restored to His rightful place when human beings put Him back? Again, on what biblical basis are you making this assertion?

Andy S. Wright · Jun 19, 2009

TimRout said:
I asked you for the BIBLICAL basis of your assertion. You have offered an opinion from personal experience. Perhaps you didn't understand my question.
So then, human beings are responsible for kicking God out of His church, and He'll only be restored to His rightful place when human beings put Him back? Again, on what biblical basis are you making this assertion?

Yep, I understood the question. I am absolutely basing that statement purely on my experiences in the church.

Of course the Bible states that Christ is the head of the church. It also stated that he was the God of Israel (the emphasis on the fact that HE was the king) and we all know what happened there, right?

The bible also states the gates of hell would not prevail against his church. I submit that the state of affairs within evangelical christianity is such that the gates of hell are not neccessary to prevail against the church. We are doing just fine eating ourselves up on our own.

I am not negating the sovereignty of God. I simply assert that in MOST Denominational, Evangelical, American Christian churches the headship of Christ in the church is absolute lip-service.

Much like Israel, man has, generally speaking, taken an institution created by God and contaminated it to the point that it is unrecognizable from its original incarnation.

I'll put it like this. Want to know if your church is fulfilling the desires and dictates of the true Head of the Church? Answer this question: if you were to close the doors of your church and never conduct another ministry or hold another service there till the end of time, what impact would that decision have on the community your church is sitting in?

The answer to that question for the church in Acts (when Christ WAS the head of the church) would be "major impact".

The answer to that question for most churches in this country would be "little to no impact". I'll leave it to you to decide where your church falls into that equation.

When man calls the shots in the church, God is "demoted" to figurehead leader and the church falls into the "form of godliness but no power" category. (By power I mean the entire definition of the word, not just supernatural miracles and whatnot).

When God is calling the shots, the church is a culture affecting, community changing force to be reckoned with in the world (again, just read Acts). Also, if this were the case the church would have a true understanding of what persecution really is.

After a lifetime of serving God in his churches across the nation I have come to the inescapable conclusion that we are no better than Israel when it comes to fulfilling our purpose as the example of God's kingdom on the earth. They "demoted" God by begging for and getting earthly kings who (with few exceptions) were more concerned with building their own kingdom than the kingdom of God.

The church is doing the exact same thing today with the push to mimic the latest celebripastor/megachurch model. We've got men and women all over the church landscape more concerned with building their own kingdoms than serving the King of Kings in His Kingdom. I mean, ministers are naming the ministry after themselves for crying out loud.This isn't Andy Wright's ministry! It's the ministry of Jesus Christ!

I could go on but that's my take on the situation. Christ is head in name only in far too many organizations that have the word "church" emblazoned on their signs.

It may not be "biblical" but it is the absolute truth.

TimRout · Jun 19, 2009

Andy S. Wright said:
Yep, I understood the question. I am absolutely basing that statement purely on my experiences in the church.

Of course the Bible states that Christ is the head of the church. It also stated that he was the God of Israel (the emphasis on the fact that HE was the king) and we all know what happened there, right?

The bible also states the gates of hell would not prevail against his church. I submit that the state of affairs within evangelical christianity is such that the gates of hell are not neccessary to prevail against the church. We are doing just fine eating ourselves up on our own.

I am not negating the sovereignty of God. I simply assert that in MOST Denominational, Evangelical, American Christian churches the headship of Christ in the church is absolute lip-service.

Much like Israel, man has, generally speaking, taken an institution created by God and contaminated it to the point that it is unrecognizable from its original incarnation.

I'll put it like this. Want to know if your church is fulfilling the desires and dictates of the true Head of the Church? Answer this question: if you were to close the doors of your church and never conduct another ministry or hold another service there till the end of time, what impact would that decision have on the community your church is sitting in?

The answer to that question for the church in Acts (when Christ WAS the head of the church) would be "major impact".

The answer to that question for most churches in this country would be "little to no impact". I'll leave it to you to decide where your church falls into that equation.

When man calls the shots in the church, God is "demoted" to figurehead leader and the church falls into the "form of godliness but no power" category. (By power I mean the entire definition of the word, not just supernatural miracles and whatnot).

When God is calling the shots, the church is a culture affecting, community changing force to be reckoned with in the world (again, just read Acts). Also, if this were the case the church would have a true understanding of what persecution really is.

After a lifetime of serving God in his churches across the nation I have come to the inescapable conclusion that we are no better than Israel when it comes to fulfilling our purpose as the example of God's kingdom on the earth. They "demoted" God by begging for and getting earthly kings who (with few exceptions) were more concerned with building their own kingdom than the kingdom of God.

The church is doing the exact same thing today with the push to mimic the latest celebripastor/megachurch model. We've got men and women all over the church landscape more concerned with building their own kingdoms than serving the King of Kings in His Kingdom. I mean, ministers are naming the ministry after themselves for crying out loud.This isn't Andy Wright's ministry! It's the ministry of Jesus Christ!

I could go on but that's my take on the situation. Christ is head in name only in far too many organizations that have the word "church" emblazoned on their signs.

I suppose part of the problem is our differing definitions of "church". You speak of the institution, while I speak of the organism.

Andy S. Wright said:
It may not be "biblical" but it is the absolute truth.

Again, there's the problem. I'm a biblicist -- first, middle and last.

Andy S. Wright · Jun 19, 2009

TimRout said:
I suppose part of the problem is our differing definitions of "church". You speak of the institution, while I speak of the organism.
Again, there's the problem. I'm a biblicist -- first, middle and last.

I abslutely agree with you; the church is an organism. However, the institution has been the physical representation of that organism for generations and the institution, to put it mildly, is broken beyond repair IMO.

As for the organism, Christ is the head, no question.

As for being a "biblicist", I too believe in the inerrant Word of God. However, reality rarely comes close to the ideal as described and exemplified in the Word for us.

Were I not "biblical" I wouldn't care one whit if the NT (institution) church resembled the instructions and examples given to us in the Word or not.

TimRout · Jun 19, 2009

Andy S. Wright said:
I abslutely agree with you; the church is an organism. However, the institution has been the physical representation of that organism for generations and the institution, to put it mildly, is broken beyond repair IMO.

As for the organism, Christ is the head, no question.

As for being a "biblicist", I too believe in the inerrant Word of God. However, reality rarely comes close to the ideal as described and exemplified in the Word for us.

Were I not "biblical" I wouldn't care one whit if the NT (institution) church resembled the instructions and examples given to us in the Word or not.

Is it your view that something -- anything -- can take place in this universe beyond the sovereign control of Yahweh?

Andy S. Wright · Jun 19, 2009

TimRout said:
Is it your view that something -- anything -- can take place in this universe beyond the sovereign control of Yahweh?

Of course it can. Do you think it was the sovereign will of Yahweh for man to sin? Permissive will versus perfect will. He gave man free will to choose. Man chooses his own way over God's perfect will for him. Sin enters the world. The rest is history.

trentlogain2 · Jun 19, 2009

Why blame anyone? Granted, the church itself could be the reason why some people are departing. (Hypocrisy probably being the main factor).

But I'm going to stick with what The Bible says when God says that people are going to leave the in the latter times.

Phileoeklogos · Jun 20, 2009

Goats love religion, if you want to keep them, give them lots of good religion, some entertainment, free pony rides for the kids, and comfortable seats.

Sheep love the Shepherd, if you want to keep sheep, tell them about the Shepherd, feed them with the food from above, no entertainment, programs, or comfortable seats required, all this is quite annoying to goats.

Joh 21:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
Joh 21:16 He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

Virginia1957 · Jun 20, 2009

I think that there are probably many different reasons why people go to church. The most common are to worship God (thankfully) and for friendship, love, companionship etc. the latter not always being easy to find in a church.
Having said that, why do non believers need to go to church? Shouldn't Christians be reaching out to them? Shouldn't we be meeting them in our communities and being Jesus to them?
Jesus said, love thy neighbour - he didn't say get them into a church. If you love your neighbour more, then he might want to come and find out more about our wonderful God.

How do we solve.....

pactum serva

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Celtic Rite Old Catholic Church

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JacksLadder

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Celtic Rite Old Catholic Church

Hiding In Plain Sight

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Hiding In Plain Sight

Biblicist

Hiding In Plain Sight

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Hiding In Plain Sight

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Hiding In Plain Sight

trentlogain2

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Alten Schule Baptist

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