My Opinion of Middle East Policy Speech by Obama

clirus said:

You can call it negotiating peace, but others would call it establishing the terms of surrender.

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Which is interesting, because although they mean exactly the same things, there is a different attitude behind them. The 'establishing the terms of surrender' has a more powerful and punitive ring to it, and I would immediately associate with the Versaille treaty which was the main cause of WWII. if you impose crippling terms, instead of negotiating a peace acceptable to both sides, then you will find yourself back where you started.

As for the rest of your post, I never claimed negotiation had a 100% success rate, but even if it had a 1% success rate, that would still be 1% more than violence.

clirus said:

You can call it negotiating peace, but others would call it establishing the terms of surrender.

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It's only surrender to those who don't know peace.

clirus said:

In order for the Messiah to come, the nation of Israel had to survive.

That is why I believe the Old Testament provides commandments/doctrines that must be followed for a nation to survive.

An individual and their nation are bound together such that one cannot survive without the other.

The New Testament provides directions on how a Christian should live, and the Old Testament provides directions on how Christians should govern.

The New Testament describes God's Love and the Old Testament describes God's Righteousness. Either too much love or too much righteousness is bad .....

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There is nothing in either ther New or Old Testament to support this interpretation - but I'm sure "clirus" can put enough "spin" on a few isolated verses to convince himself and ignore the rest.

A dead person never commits another crime.

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...or saves a life, or does anything else as far as I can tell.
tulc(are we playing the "lets state the obvious" game?)

clirus said:

ScottishJohn quote

As for the rest of your post, I never claimed negotiation had a 100% success rate, but even if it had a 1% success rate, that would still be 1% more than violence.

Response

A dead person never commits another crime.

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Tell that to this guy -- as I recall, he caused a lot more trouble after he was executed by the lawful authorities:

Jury trials and executions are not perfect either, but there needs to be a balance.

The present prevailing attitude is to be soft on sin, which is allowing evil to flourish.

The death penalty and war are a necessary part of society to prevent evil from overtaking society.

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Tell that to the guy who said this:

38: Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
41: And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42: Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43: Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44: But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47: And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The Bible deals with God's Love and God's Righteousness.

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That's right, clirus -- God's, not yours.

Too many Christians are will consider only God's Love and the New Testament of the Bible.

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Yeah, they even named themselves after that guy who the New Testament was about -- what were they thinking?

I believe this has led to the rise of Atheism as a significant political activity.

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Assuming this is so, what do you propose to do about Atheism? Ship us off to the camps?

Who would have ever thought a president of the United States would declare a LGBT-Pride-Month.

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Who would have thought the straight people would care about that more than the LGBTs?

(You are straight, correct?)

Atheism is an unhealthy lifestyle that needs the health care/welfare of socialism to survive.

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Tell that to the happy and wealthy Atheist Capitalists.

I advocate the elimination of health care/welfare/socialism by the government. The government should not be involved in any social policy actions because it violates the separation of church and state policy.

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Umm... no it doesn't. In fact, governments are instituted for the very purpose of social policy regulation.

And if you eliminated absolutely all healthcare and welfare, then struggling US farmers will only struggle further, and it could be predicted that their farms would collapse and their livelihoods disappear, and if so, what will happen to your grocery prices? Yes, that's right, a lot more people - even middle-class people perhaps - would become increasingly dependent on welfare simply from not being able to afford food. I stress, however, that this is merely a hypothetical scenario, but the causal chain is clear.

I Atheism is self sustaining it will survive otherwise it will not. See thread on Three Legged Deer.

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Atheism, as a conceptual framework, has survived for a very long time. This is not merely a modern phenomenon and you cannot wipe it out. So long as there are people who believe in a personal God, there will be people who doubt that belief.

clirus said:

Nathan Poe quote

Assuming this is so, what do you propose to do about Atheism? Ship us off to the camps?

Response

Atheism is an unhealthy lifestyle that needs the health care/welfare of socialism to survive.

I advocate the elimination of health care/welfare/socialism by the government. The government should not be involved in any social policy actions because it violates the separation of church and state policy.

I Atheism is self sustaining it will survive otherwise it will not. See thread on Three Legged Deer.

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You're the one who wants the government promoting the "Christian lifestyle" -- you tell me which one is self-sustaining.

ScottishJohn said:

Which is interesting, because although they mean exactly the same things, there is a different attitude behind them. The 'establishing the terms of surrender' has a more powerful and punitive ring to it, and I would immediately associate with the Versaille treaty which was the main cause of WWII. if you impose crippling terms, instead of negotiating a peace acceptable to both sides, then you will find yourself back where you started.

As for the rest of your post, I never claimed negotiation had a 100% success rate, but even if it had a 1% success rate, that would still be 1% more than violence.

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I agree. It was the crippling terms forced upon Germany after WW1 that was a main cause for WW2. Whereas the surrender treaties signed with Japan and Germany has ensured peace! No peoples want war! War is the result of ignorance and or political or economic aims!

clirus said:

Too many Christians are will consider only God's Love and the New Testament of the Bible.

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Finally Clirus has admitted she will kill a disobedient child in accordance to the OT laws!

May your god have mercy on your pitiful soul:

(the below excerpt copied from Poe's post)
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

clirus said:

A dead person never commits another crime.

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Interesting that you switch to capital punishment in a discussion about terrorism when what you would prefer would be the summary execution of all alleged terrorists. Most people involved in terror have families. A lieutenant colonel in the US army once said 'when I kill one I create three more'. To get us back on topic, force doesn't work.

You talk about allowing evil to flourish. I believe your preferred course of action is actively adding to the evil in the world.

clirus said:

Not if you execute the three more also.

The purpose of war is to eliminate all the enemy that support the war, and that includes men, women and children.

Numbers 21:3 "And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah"

Deuteronomy 2:32-34, "Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.

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In those verses, God "delivered up" the enemies of Israel in a particular point in history. Unless you can demonstrate where God has done this today then it is disanalogious and therefore irrelevant.

Furthermore, I do not see where Jesus advocated: (a) the use of war (b) the killing of men, women AND children. Perhaps you should try getting a different Bible? You know... an authentic one.

clirus said:

Mithrandir Istar quote

Tell that to the happy and wealthy Atheist Capitalists.

Response

This is the image that every Atheist would like to present, but it is far from the truth.

Sin begins with pleasure and ends with pain. The sin is for a season, but the pain is forever.

I believe most Atheistic Capitalist (and all other Atheists) live a miserable life of seeking acceptance by the world.

As long as they are providing free drinks, they have friends, but when the free drinks stop, the friends forget them. Remember the Prodical Son.

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The point was not whether they are happy. The point was that they are wealthy, which is entirely contradicts your claim that most poverty results from willful disobedience to Scripture, since the Rich Atheist happily ignores Scripture and is still rich.

clirus said:

tanzanos quote

Finally Clirus has admitted she will kill a disobedient child in accordance to the OT laws!

May your god have mercy on your pitiful soul:

Response

Well certainly one of us will be proven wrong at the day of judgment.

It a pitiful situation to have to misquote or misinterpret to try to win a discussion. I believe I said the execution would be by the congregation after a jury trial.

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You cannot interpret the OT as you wish. Either you accept it in whole or you will be transgressing against God's commands. Therefore according to your posts the conclusion is very clear: You condone the killing of disobedient children since it is called for in the OT.

clirus said:

Not if you execute the three more also.

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So, you support killing terrorists and their families.

The purpose of war is to eliminate all the enemy that support the war, and that includes men, women and children.

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So, you support killing children.

Numbers 21:3 "And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah"

Deuteronomy 2:32-34, "Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain.

A lot of people become Christians, but keep a few sins that they never really remove/execute, and the sins that they hold on to are the ones that Satan uses to ruin the joy of being a Christian.

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Would that include the joy of genocide? Do you enjoy the notion of killing men, women, and children en masse?