The Attack on Christianity

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LightHorseman

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Hey... here's a crazy idea... if certain Christians want to exercise their free speech to condemn homosexuality... why don't they organise their own homosexual condemnation event, rather than showing up at homosexual events and then getting shirty when they take heat for it.

I'm a conservative, and have a right to free speech... that does not, however, give me the right to crash a liberal convention and start heckling the speakers.
 
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Mercy Medical

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Actually, yes they are. This one made national news at the time it happened.

Gay anarchist 'action' hits church
Someone pointed that out to me previously and if you would have read earlier on in the thread I addressed the fact that there are "extremist" fringe groups every where that don't necessarily express the common views of the main group and I also don't agree with doing that either...
 
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b&wpac4

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Someone pointed that out to me previously and if you would have read earlier on in the thread I addressed the fact that there are "extremist" fringe groups every where that don't necessarily express the common views of the main group and I also don't agree with doing that either...

I agree with this, unless people want me to start assuming the actions of Fred Phelps represents the entirety of Christianity.
 
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b&wpac4

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At least that's one thing that 90% of America can agree on. We all hate the WBC.

Also, it's a bit much to expect anybody to keep a running list of every fringe group with which they disagree. There are plenty of groups I don't agree with, but I don't assume their existence means I am being oppressed. EVERYBODY in the US gets to have their own political opinion and the right to fight for their political agenda to be pushed.
 
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Shane Roach

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Well, for the record, I was being sincere. While it's unfortunate that you are unable and unwilling to take my sincerity at face value, you're certainly not obligated to in any case.

I was actually willing to discuss, based on some interactions we've had previously that I have found interesting and enlightening. It seems quite clear now, though, that you do not respond well to criticism of your sources, will not respond to appeals for more information made in good faith, and have a vested interest in maintaining a sense of being persecuted.

Since discussion is impossible under such conditions, I won't waste either of our time any longer. Good evening to you, and good luck.

For the third time, and for the benefit of people coming to this discussion late and seeing three different people making as if the source is a problem here, everything that has been posted has been confirmed IN THE THREAD by more than one source.

I, personally, do not accept that simply because something comes from a specific source it is automatically untrue. I had the experience just yesterday of a young man making a lot of hoopla about Americans taking the skulls of the Japanese. His manner was so rude and bewilderingly one sided that I might have easily been excused for dismissing him, but I would have been the one in the wrong, because he was correct.

It's one thing to question the validity of a source if that is the only place something can be found. It is quite another to repeatedly question a source without providing evidence that the source is biased, and then to continually state that the information is suspect even though it has been confirmed by other sources.

I have yet to see WND foist false claims, and if they do I would be willing to bet they were no worse than the average mainstream liberal propaganda machines. Refusing to address an issue simply because one of the sources happens to be WND is simply an attack on the messenger rather than the message, and I repeat, is relatively common among liberals, socialists, atheists and the like.
 
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b&wpac4

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I have yet to see WND foist false claims, and if they do I would be willing to bet they were no worse than the average mainstream liberal propaganda machines. Refusing to address an issue simply because one of the sources happens to be WND is simply an attack on the messenger rather than the message, and I repeat, is relatively common among liberals, socialists, atheists and the like.

AND Christians who don't look at the evidence scientists present because they are a "conspiracy" to "deny creation".

It's a common tactic among everybody. Let's stop pretending, ok?
 
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Shane Roach

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I'm calling you on this. Every single time I have seen evidence that people had their rights violated I have agreed.

Thus the word "many" instead of "all". Although I will in turn call you on your statement. I do not remember there being a whole lot of these instances, and in this thread you seem to be taking great pains to point a finger hither and thither and yon rather than addressing the documented fact that hate crimes legislation was used to intimidate a Christian organization, whereas a similar (and in fact worse) situation involving gays invading a church did not receive the same sort of legal attention, even so much as any charges being filed at all.

Then someone filed an even worse case, and I have yet to see anyone comment on it at all. Permits for home Bible study? Where are we, China?

I did not see you react to that post.
 
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b&wpac4

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Then someone filed an even worse case, and I have yet to see anyone comment on it at all. Permits for home Bible study? Where are we, China?

I did not see you react to that post.

There was a whole thread it on and I put my comments in that thread. I said if the facts presented were in fact true, the county made an error either in making the law or enforcing it.

If, however, they were disrupting the neighborhood and the law prevents people from doing so for any reason, the study group was in the wrong.
 
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Taure

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Christianity is not under attack.

The only thing under attack is the perceived right of conservative Christians to dictate how society should be run.

Christians are, and will be for the foreseeable future, free to practice their religion.

What is coming to an end, and rightly so, is the special protection and treatment given to Christianity which enables certain narrow-minded parts of the Christian community to enforce their narrow-mindedness on others.

This is a long time coming: the liberation of the U.S. from the tyranny and oppression of fundamentalist religion and the return to being a truly free nation.
 
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jpcedotal

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Christianity is not under attack.

The only thing under attack is the perceived right of conservative Christians to dictate how society should be run.

Christians are, and will be for the foreseeable future, free to practice their religion.

What is coming to an end, and rightly so, is the special protection and treatment given to Christianity which enables certain narrow-minded parts of the Christian community to enforce their narrow-mindedness on others.

This is a long time coming: the liberation of the U.S. from the tyranny and oppression of fundamentalist religion and the return to being a truly free nation.

I respectfully disagree. As long as the "pushing" is backed up by the Bible I support it 100%.
 
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Mercy Medical

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So you firmly believe that Christians have a right to push their agenda and other people who push their agendas do not?
Because even though God granted us all free will and the ability to make decisions on our own (whether they fall in line with his words and his plan or not) that we shouldn't be allowed to have the ability of free will and we should be forced to live the way Christ intended us to live....
 
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feral

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Shane Roach said:
Over and over again, homosexuality as a "civil right" is used as a stick to beat Christians with.

I'm not sure how this perspective was attained. Homosexuality doesn't have anything to do with your religion. Homosexuality's main impact is on the lgbt community and their friends and loved ones. If Christian people are trying to prohibit people from leading their lives and making independent choices about their sexual or romantic partners, then they will be told gender discrimination is no longer appropriate...but if you feel beaten over the head with it, it's probably because you got involved with something that has nothing to do with your faith.

All of the various attacks on laws meant to maintain a standard of accepted sexual behavior have the net result of demonizing and criminalizing what are in actuality simply proper attitudes and common sense.

Accepted by whom? I think gay sex is absolutely fine. I really don't care what adults do in bed. What kind of "proper attitudes" are you referring to? Is an obsession with other people's sex lives proper? Is discrimination common sense?

People who oppose inappropriate content are prudes. People who oppose sexual activity outside of marriage, or who oppose "recreational" violent sexual activities (Sadismn and Masochism), are labeled "busybodies". Every sexual deviancy has its group of moral and political supporters. Yet how can anyone know if someone has actually been assaulted sexually if people consider violent sex just another lifestyle choice? How do you distinguish rape from consensual sex after the fact?

I agree with what you are saying that personal attacks and insults don't have a place in the argument.

But you say "deviancy". If sleeping with a same sex partner is natural, normal and desirable for someone, then heterosexuality is not their norm, it would be deviating from their natural and normal.

The later part of your argument is worth considering. We do need to be able to protect rape or coercion victims and not label rape desired violent sex. One way of distinguishing rape from consensual sex is to see who files the rape report at the police station. Someone who has enjoyed an evening of rough sex that fulfills a kink probably won't show up to make a complaint; someone who was forced would.

(* and no, not everyone raped makes a report..just pointing out that those who had consensual, wanted sex don't)

OP WND article said:
Eight charges were filed against the protesters, including three felonies and five misdemeanors. The charges were: criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment of another person, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct, and obstructing highways.

Uh huh. This would seem to challenge the idea that a few nice, innocent Christians got arrested solely for preaching.

OP WND article said:
Responding to the riot charge, the group's statement said: "Despite the fact that our behavior was above reproach and we were attacked by a mob of whistle-blowing, obscenity-screaming God haters, the Christians, and only the Christians, were charged."

If their behaviour was indeed above reproach, why would police officers - some of whom presumably were Christians, as the majority of Americans are Christian - arrest them? I suppose I would give them the benefit of the doubt, if the organization had not had the same thing happen again and again. "Repent America" seems to be a euphanism for "let's make trouble".
 
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Shane Roach

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Christianity is not under attack.

The only thing under attack is the perceived right of conservative Christians to dictate how society should be run.

Christians are, and will be for the foreseeable future, free to practice their religion.

What is coming to an end, and rightly so, is the special protection and treatment given to Christianity which enables certain narrow-minded parts of the Christian community to enforce their narrow-mindedness on others.

This is a long time coming: the liberation of the U.S. from the tyranny and oppression of fundamentalist religion and the return to being a truly free nation.

To Socliasits, "certain narrow minded parts of the Christian community" is the same thing as the vast majority of all citizens.

No, it is not the Christians who are trying to force their values down the throats of Americans who do not want them. It is precisely the opposite.
 
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Mercy Medical

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Thus the word "many" instead of "all". Although I will in turn call you on your statement. I do not remember there being a whole lot of these instances, and in this thread you seem to be taking great pains to point a finger hither and thither and yon rather than addressing the documented fact that hate crimes legislation was used to intimidate a Christian organization, whereas a similar (and in fact worse) situation involving gays invading a church did not receive the same sort of legal attention, even so much as any charges being filed at all.

Then someone filed an even worse case, and I have yet to see anyone comment on it at all. Permits for home Bible study? Where are we, China?

I did not see you react to that post.
I'm sorry, but the whole permit for home Bible study crap could have been easily remedied if the friends of the neighbors were capable of talking to one another without having to refer to the police...

That's not some kind of attack on Christianity. Yes, the whole permit thing is just dumb...but it could have been easily avoided with human interaction.
 
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Mercy Medical

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To Socliasits, "certain narrow minded parts of the Christian community" is the same thing as the vast majority of all citizens.

No, it is not the Christians who are trying to force their values down the throats of Americans who do not want them. It is precisely the opposite.
Are you KIDDING me? Christians are not trying to force their views down people's throats? What do you call the whole anti-gay rights agenda? "Protecting" traditional marriage? That is EXACTLY that.

To me, it seems like Christians feel like it's the opposite only because people oppose what Christians are doing and want policies they want to enforce. A good majority of Christians feel that we all should live by their standards, regardless of our religious affiliations and because we believe in personal freedom we are somehow forcing our values on you? You are still free to live YOUR life the way that you see fit. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't much preventing Christians from living their life according to their values (I expect an onslaught of links in a reply saying the exact opposite) and teaching their children those values. There is, however, legislation preventing others from living their lives the way they feel is best for them...
 
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Shane Roach

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If their behaviour was indeed above reproach, why would police officers - some of whom presumably were Christians, as the majority of Americans are Christian - arrest them? I suppose I would give them the benefit of the doubt, if the organization had not had the same thing happen again and again. "Repent America" seems to be a euphanism for "let's make trouble".

Much of your post is aimed at trying to cast sexual perversion as perfecly healthy and normal. It is not backed with any facts. I have posted a plethora of studies and a review of an entire book that describes how the psychiatric community has, with eyes wide open and with full malice of intent, created this issue out of thin air for political and professional gain.

As for Gay marriage, the points against it have been repeated again and again. The typical response is to disagree or feign confusion. Marriage is what it is because of literally thousands of years of social evolution, all focused on how to deal with the issues that arise between men and women, their families, and the children they bear. Gays, whatever you think of the acceptability of their behavior, simply do not have these same issues, and should not be treated as if they do.

As to your last couple of paragraphs, the distinction being made here is that the Christians get the hate crime and the civil rights rap used against them, whereas gays don't, even when invading a church. The double standard is obvious. In the meantime, "freedom of speech" is used to defend such filth as animated kiddy inappropriate content.

No surprise that the only person who has addressed this issue from the gay activists side of the aisle fully supports the legalization of animated kiddy inappropriate content. (No, not you. This was previous.)

Every criminal, every vagrant, every thief, every vandal, every single person who does something illegal, whether the worst violent felon or the lightest traffic violation, all of these people have family and friends who love and care for them. They all have lives that are plunged into disorder of some sort when they break the law. The point here is that the laws are being specifically fashioned to shape society by singling out the majority for harassment, and protecting minorities, in some cases even demonstrably criminal minorities (drug dealers and the like) from the legal sanctions that the people of this nation have expressed their desire to have placed into law.

That is tyranny.
 
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Shane Roach

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Are you KIDDING me? Christians are not trying to force their views down people's throats? What do you call the whole anti-gay rights agenda? "Protecting" traditional marriage? That is EXACTLY that.

To me, it seems like Christians feel like it's the opposite only because people oppose what Christians are doing and want policies they want to enforce. A good majority of Christians feel that we all should live by their standards, regardless of our religious affiliations and because we believe in personal freedom we are somehow forcing our values on you? You are still free to live YOUR life the way that you see fit. As far as I'm concerned, there isn't much preventing Christians from living their life according to their values (I expect an onslaught of links in a reply saying the exact opposite) and teaching their children those values. There is, however, legislation preventing others from living their lives the way they feel is best for them...

You people find yourselves "victimized" by "Christians" even when the vast majority of all Americans disagree with you.

The science is against you. The facts are against you. All of history is against you. Tolerance of sexual perversions is an achieved goal. If that's all gays wanted, they had it. Now they and their Socialist allies are taking it to the next level, cramming their anti-religious and anti-family doctrine down the throats of a nation that demonstrably wants nothing to do with it, and all on the backs of false arguments that our liberal media spout over and over again, violating every conceivable ethical standard of news reporting.

Shall we go over the studies yet again? The last time I tried people here supported things posted by an individual that I found to be outright untrue, and when I pointed it out I somehow got in trouble for it. Magic, or open and flagrant abuse of Christians on a Christian website?

That's right, in our churches and on nominally Christian web sites, we are harassed and belittled for our faith, or for simply holding to the truth and pointing out who is bearing a false witness and when, and how. I was accused falsely in the Methodist church of harassing a woman at her motel who came to speak at the Wesley Foundation where I worked, and only the timely intervention of knowledgeable associates of mine kept me from being outright railroaded by this outright liar. I never even knew where this woman's motel was after her speech.

Yes, yes and yes, socialists and atheists, anti-Christian activists and a plethora of other related people ARE attacking Christians even in this nation that nominally has a vast majority of Christian citizens. That is the demonstrable FACT.
 
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