razzelflabben

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The justification for genocide that people were sacrificing their babies is one I've heard before and one that makes no sense. The logic is terrible.

1. They're sacrificing babies and having orgies!
2. We'll kill all of them, including their babies!

That's a lame justification because it contradicts itself with the results.
okay, before I tackle this point specifically, I got to ask this question, when I repeatedly say I am not justifying anything, when I specifically say that I would personally neither do such a thing nor accept it as good, you still insist that I am justifying the act.....sounds like your trying to flame me on this issue....as I also clearly stated many times over, there is a huge difference between agreeing with someone and understanding why they did or do what they did or do.....I'll share a story with you in a bit about perspective but first the above concern.

Why did God want them all killed, including the babies? WE talked about this, from the standpoint of trying to understand what another does or wants, what was God's reasoning? First we see that God wanted to wipe out the evil religions and their practices from the earth....these were some pretty nasty people who in todays discussion would be listed as having no morals...they were killing their own babies for heavens sakes, that is pretty evil. You all like to talk about the evils we do upon children today and where is God, well here is a case where God stepped in and your all upset because HE did....is it possible, in your minds, for God to do anything at all that would win? Man is evil, man's evil hurts kids, where is God why doesn't He step in, God is evil or He would do something for the kids being treated with such evil? But man is evil, man's evil hurts kids, where is God, why doesn't He step in, oops, there is God, He stepped in and did something, God is evil, He stepped in and stopped the evil that was hurting children? there is no winning in your minds, because in your minds, God is evil both when He steps in and when He doesn't.

But maybe your only objection is not that God stepped in, but rather that He killed the children at the same time...this is where perspective comes in, God's perspective is one of eternity, He doesn't see things the same way you and I do....like out child who got hit by the car, God had a choice, allow a few days of pain so that the child could be well and live or stop the pain immediately and allow the child to die at a very young age, He chose life. The bible (God) views this life as short term, a vapor, it is not lasting...that includes the pain we know here on this earth. so look at the children you refer to as God saying it is better to allow them pain for a few days that they might live, or to be pain free immediately that they might live a short painful life....personally I'll take the few days of pain any day of the year, for me and my children, if it means long and healthy life, instead of short, painful life.

Now a story, one day, I was sitting at home sewing. My sister came in the room and laid on my back...I asked my sister to move, she refused...I told her to move, she refused....I took her by the arms and set her off me....she went crying to my father that I scratched her and showed my father an old scratch that was healing....my father went bolistic and took off his belt and began to beat me with the belt.....now let me say this, I cried, I was a kid, tired of the abuse, tired of being falsly accused, etc. and I cried....but perspective is important in any situation, you see, the one thing I did not cry over was the pain of the belt stricking me....I didn't cry over it because the pain was not there, neither were the marks that should have been there....God stood in my place that day and took the beating that was meant for me. The point is this, there are many things in this world that color our eyes to the events that we witness, but seldom do we have all that we need to see them from anothers perspective....that day, my perspective was vital to understanding what was going on inside of me....you might look at the situation as an outsider and complain, grip, you might have even (if brave enough) have held my fathers arm from beating me so much, but what you couldn't do, is stop what and how that event affected and changed my life. That is mine to hold and mine alone, because my perspective shaped the event in my life. The same is try here with the children in the bible....what and how the events changed and shaped their lives (eternal and temperal for those who survived) is not yours or mine to own....how the events affected and changed our lives today, is not ours alone, God is responsible for what He ordered and as such, He is responsible for how it affected others....In God's mind, the eternal nature of His decisions outweights the temperal. Take the story I just related, in God's mind, the life long change that was the result, far outweighed the temperal pain, just like in our analogy above. You and I see things as temperal only so we can't see or imagine the eternal nature of God, that is why it helps to use analogies....
History is written by the winners. It's hard to tell who was the aggressor back in those times. It was a pretty violent life for most groups of people back then.

Think about it- if a group of people start to invade a land, and claim that their god has given them that land- who are the aggressors? They claim that it was their right and they don't care what gods other people have, so why should those people respect the god of the invaders and just step aside? It's like when America claimed all this land for itself and pushed the natives out of what had always been the land of their people- then pointed out how violent the natives are.
yep...and so your point? We aren't talking about man's perception here but God's, so I'm stumped as to what your point is....I tend to agree with most of this, actually I would have to disagree about the part history is written by the winners, history is told, or revised by whoever is telling the history, the perspective by which it is told is revisionary in it's very nature, but the rest is spot on.
 
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R3quiem

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okay, before I tackle this point specifically, I got to ask this question, when I repeatedly say I am not justifying anything, when I specifically say that I would personally neither do such a thing nor accept it as good, you still insist that I am justifying the act.....sounds like your trying to flame me on this issue....as I also clearly stated many times over, there is a huge difference between agreeing with someone and understanding why they did or do what they did or do.....I'll share a story with you in a bit about perspective but first the above concern.

Why did God want them all killed, including the babies? WE talked about this, from the standpoint of trying to understand what another does or wants, what was God's reasoning? First we see that God wanted to wipe out the evil religions and their practices from the earth....these were some pretty nasty people who in todays discussion would be listed as having no morals...they were killing their own babies for heavens sakes, that is pretty evil. You all like to talk about the evils we do upon children today and where is God, well here is a case where God stepped in and your all upset because HE did....is it possible, in your minds, for God to do anything at all that would win? Man is evil, man's evil hurts kids, where is God why doesn't He step in, God is evil or He would do something for the kids being treated with such evil? But man is evil, man's evil hurts kids, where is God, why doesn't He step in, oops, there is God, He stepped in and did something, God is evil, He stepped in and stopped the evil that was hurting children? there is no winning in your minds, because in your minds, God is evil both when He steps in and when He doesn't.
First of all, I don't believe that a god "stepped in". People killed people.

Secondly, if we are going to consider that a deity which created this universe told the Israelites to kill their surrounding enemies- we must look at the text. God told them to kill them all because of what they did to the Israelites, and because he promised them that land. He doesn't send them on a holy crusade around the world righting wrongs- it's a battle over land and revenge. Killing babies to prevent the killing of babies makes no sense, because preventing the killing of babies was not their goal.

Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible is shown as hating people who hate him down to even their tenth generation. That's more or less a direct quote, I can post it if you want. That's hardly the type of deity who steps in merely to bring peace to a situation, as the rest of your post suggests.

But maybe your only objection is not that God stepped in, but rather that He killed the children at the same time...this is where perspective comes in, God's perspective is one of eternity, He doesn't see things the same way you and I do....like out child who got hit by the car, God had a choice, allow a few days of pain so that the child could be well and live or stop the pain immediately and allow the child to die at a very young age, He chose life. The bible (God) views this life as short term, a vapor, it is not lasting...that includes the pain we know here on this earth. so look at the children you refer to as God saying it is better to allow them pain for a few days that they might live, or to be pain free immediately that they might live a short painful life....personally I'll take the few days of pain any day of the year, for me and my children, if it means long and healthy life, instead of short, painful life.

Now a story, one day, I was sitting at home sewing. My sister came in the room and laid on my back...I asked my sister to move, she refused...I told her to move, she refused....I took her by the arms and set her off me....she went crying to my father that I scratched her and showed my father an old scratch that was healing....my father went bolistic and took off his belt and began to beat me with the belt.....now let me say this, I cried, I was a kid, tired of the abuse, tired of being falsly accused, etc. and I cried....but perspective is important in any situation, you see, the one thing I did not cry over was the pain of the belt stricking me....I didn't cry over it because the pain was not there, neither were the marks that should have been there....God stood in my place that day and took the beating that was meant for me. The point is this, there are many things in this world that color our eyes to the events that we witness, but seldom do we have all that we need to see them from anothers perspective....that day, my perspective was vital to understanding what was going on inside of me....you might look at the situation as an outsider and complain, grip, you might have even (if brave enough) have held my fathers arm from beating me so much, but what you couldn't do, is stop what and how that event affected and changed my life. That is mine to hold and mine alone, because my perspective shaped the event in my life. The same is try here with the children in the bible....what and how the events changed and shaped their lives (eternal and temperal for those who survived) is not yours or mine to own....how the events affected and changed our lives today, is not ours alone, God is responsible for what He ordered and as such, He is responsible for how it affected others....In God's mind, the eternal nature of His decisions outweights the temperal. Take the story I just related, in God's mind, the life long change that was the result, far outweighed the temperal pain, just like in our analogy above. You and I see things as temperal only so we can't see or imagine the eternal nature of God, that is why it helps to use analogies....
I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the ends justify the means. That's subjective. Imagine taking a sword, cut the neck of a father, stab the mother, slice it into their six year old daughter, and then pierce and kill their infant, and then we'll talk about whether the ends justify the means and whether the being which commanded such things is glorious.

If a deity which created this entire universe and is above and beyond all human comprehension has to resort to bronze age butchery to accomplish his goals of obtaining land and such, then really I'm not impressed by such a being and see no glory.

The story shows people battling for land, the same land that pretty much the same groups of people are battling for today, and, just like today, all sides claim that god is behind them.

yep...and so your point? We aren't talking about man's perception here but God's, so I'm stumped as to what your point is....I tend to agree with most of this, actually I would have to disagree about the part history is written by the winners, history is told, or revised by whoever is telling the history, the perspective by which it is told is revisionary in it's very nature, but the rest is spot on.
Israelites wrote the scriptures.
 
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razzelflabben

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First of all, I don't believe that a god "stepped in". People killed people.
if God commanded it, wouldn't that mean that He stepped in and got involved in people's lives?
Secondly, if we are going to consider that a deity which created this universe told the Israelites to kill their surrounding enemies- we must look at the text. God told them to kill them all because of what they did to the Israelites, and because he promised them that land. He doesn't send them on a holy crusade around the world righting wrongs- it's a battle over land and revenge. Killing babies to prevent the killing of babies makes no sense, because preventing the killing of babies was not their goal.
could make that point, but here is the part your missing, and it's about perspective....from God's perspective, the "enemies" were turning the Isrealites from God, from eternal life....it wasn't just an issue of, the Hatfield's and Macoy's (hope people still know who they were) but rather these are people who are destroying you, killing you, more of an issue of self defense than an issue of revenge....
Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible is shown as hating people who hate him down to even their tenth generation. That's more or less a direct quote, I can post it if you want. That's hardly the type of deity who steps in merely to bring peace to a situation, as the rest of your post suggests.
I know the passage and have considered it with quite a bit of depth....now, the first thing you got to do here is understand who God hates....it is according to the bible those who turn others away, and in fact, it isn't just an OT idea....anyone who turns people to death rather than life, is hated by God....let's convert that to an analogy, you have a kid, the kid is attacked and killed, how do you feel about your child's murderer? Most people would hate that person....same for God....remember God sees things in the eternal and in terms of His love for man, so that when He deems someone as hating Him, it's about His love and eternal understanding, it is the consistent from beginning to end.

And before we move on, I can't control how you read my posts, but I can correct your misunderstandings....I am not suggesting that God steps in and brings peace, in fact, there are a whole heck of a lot more OT stories that show God not intervening than one's that show Him intervening. God's intervening is limited and very specific.
I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the ends justify the means. That's subjective. Imagine taking a sword, cut the neck of a father, stab the mother, slice it into their six year old daughter, and then pierce and kill their infant, and then we'll talk about whether the ends justify the means and whether the being which commanded such things is glorious.
and there were Isrealites that saw things the same way, and after time, the Isrealites found themselves in the same situation and worse....like a cancer that is not all removed, it began to grow again....and for the record, I'm not saying it was good or bad, right or wrong, all I am saying is that in order to understand what happened, we have to see it through different eyes. consider the Holocost in our own "modern" history....we see it as an attrosity, but unless we try to see what led up to it, we can't hope to understand what happened, why and the timing of it all. We can look at events in bible history and say, that was wrong, but until we understand more than the who and when's of that history it is nothing more than a judgment call based on what we don't understand....before we can judge a past, and the people involved in that past, we must understood what led up to it and what happened during it. That is all I am saying about this issue, add to the who and when, the why, the purpose, the perspective, the...really begin to get involved in understanding the whole event not just the part you want to be angry about.
If a deity which created this entire universe and is above and beyond all human comprehension has to resort to bronze age butchery to accomplish his goals of obtaining land and such, then really I'm not impressed by such a being and see no glory.
the way you wrote this, all that my mind went to at first is, "what did your want God to use, nuclear bombs and machine guns?"....but reading it again, this time not for the initial response but for the deeper person, here is my answer to you, hopefully I'm not missing your point....it is only partially about the land, in fact, the land is like a side issue, the issue is the hatred of the people, it's like our child that is murdered, but the same murderer is not content with killing just one of our children, he keeps coming back time and time again for the rest of our children....do we just close our eyes and allow the murderer to kill off our children, because to defend ourselves and our children would be an "evil" act of murder, or do we defend and kill to protect those we love? In a court of law, self defence is acceptable, most moral codes also accept this, but when this is the underlying principal of God's command, you condemn, the question I got to ask is why? why the double standard? Granted there is so much involved here and we need to like in history, put it all together, but throughout this part of this discussion, you all have insisted a double standard of morality, one for man and one for God....what makes this double standard? I don't get it...to me, in my way of thinking, if man can defend himself and his family even unto death, God's should be able too, in fact, there are many who claim that that moral code you have talked about comes from the bible and there is evidence that would suggest they are right. If it is morally good to man to choose life for thier children, why not God? you get the point, why a double standard just because you don't like what happened? Honestly it sounds like you are just out to justify your bias against God, which troubles me, because I love to understand people, God, and have no interest in justifications only for the sake of justifications of bias/prejudice.
The story shows people battling for land, the same land that pretty much the same groups of people are battling for today, and, just like today, all sides claim that god is behind them.

Israelites wrote the scriptures.
Okay, let's look a bit deeper at this idea of promise of land. The bible tells us that God is "all knowing" an idea that holds many different traditional understandings, and yet a study of the biblical idea basically shows us that God is eternal....consider this, for God, eternal God, there is not past, present, or future as we know it, time just is....God knows what we have done because He was there (that one isn't so hard to grasp) God knows what we are doing because He is here, in the same way, God knows what will happen because He is there....not like we keep reliving the past, but rather like He is a witness.

Now to understand this concept, we find two important things, 1. God isn't some fortuneteller, dictating who does or doesn't do what, like for example it isn't like God knew Adam and Eve would sin before they did, but rather that He was there when they sinned, in the future with them....I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but remember man is trying to understand what is spiritual, superhuman....2. if God knows the future because He is there, then things like the promise of land can and it is suggested are because of the events that lead up to that moment in time. Like understanding our history, we see that God isn't necessarily saying, I promised you this land go take it, but rather God is saying because X then Y and because Y you can inherit Z.... let's see, an analogy....I stand to inherit a sum of money but only when my parents die....because I know that someday they will die, (how do I know that? Am I all knowing, a fortuneteller? of course not) but because I know that someday my parents will die and that their inheritance includes me, I know that my portion is promised to me. This is a similar idea it appears in scripture....now, let me also go on the record as saying that this is not an absolute in scripture, (this idea of inheritance, as in spelled out) but it is strongly suggested in words like inheritance, all knowing God, etc., which means, that we can make a strong case for this idea to be the understanding here for the Isrealites and from God.

In an attempt to understand you better, I am really interested in the double standard question above, please.
 
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tanzanos

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if God commanded it, wouldn't that mean that He stepped in and got involved in people's lives? could make that point, but here is the part your missing, and it's about perspective....from God's perspective, the "enemies" were turning the Isrealites from God, from eternal life....it wasn't just an issue of, the Hatfield's and Macoy's (hope people still know who they were) but rather these are people who are destroying you, killing you, more of an issue of self defense than an issue of revenge....
Lets cut the waffling; You clearly justify the killing of Children by NOT denouncing it. Secondly you seem to speak God's mind! Now either you are a special emmissary of God or you are doing your best to justify the EVIL inherent in the OT!

In simple and few words; Do you condone the killing of Children under ANY circumstances? I am askin you and not the Bible! Please do not post anything from the Bible just give me a STRAIGHT and honest answer; YOUR answer!
 
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razzelflabben

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Lets cut the waffling; You clearly justify the killing of Children by NOT denouncing it.
Let's be fair and honest shall we....in this particular discussion I made no claims as to whether this situation much less God was right or wrong, in fact, in this discussion I told you several times that I would not get into that part of the discussion because it wasn't important to the point being made....so what then was the point if not the good or bad of killing children? The point is that when we see things through the perspective of another, the issue isn't as cut and dry as children are being killed in the OT. There are some gray areas of understanding it from the moral standpoint....let's take our examples we have used, murder is evil, but things become clouded when we learn that the murder was committed in self defense...suddenly our blanket statement murder is evil isn't as appropriate as we might have wanted it to be....let's take another example, what if you were the one who hit the kid that ran out in front of your car, the child died (happened not far from our house), the child ran in front of a car and was hit and killed....so then our blanket statement, murder is evil applies to you to, because in hitting the child with your car, you murdered him, and you are evil....the point isn't killing children is okay, good, or anthing else you want to manufacture....the point is that perspective affects the absolutes we try to build into our world......therefore the discussion is about God's perspective, not whether or not God was right.
Secondly you seem to speak God's mind!
I speak only what I find in scripture, if that is God's mind, then so be it, if not, then so be that....
Now either you are a special emmissary of God or you are doing your best to justify the EVIL inherent in the OT!
I am speaking to you the answers I found when I asked the same questions and everyone else gave the same hollow answers....traditions couldn't answer the questions, churches couldn't answer the questions, the world couldn't answer the question.....the only place I found answers was in scripture...the next question is what do you do with the answers, do you consider them, dismiss them, believe them, study them, understand them, seek to know more, pretend they don't exist, etc. there really are only two choices, 1. accept them and learn more, or 2. ignore them and pretend that there are no answers....being that I love questions and answers, I personally will accept them as answers and explore even more, desperate for more knowledge, more wisdom, more understanding...but now that you have been shown the asnwers, you have to decide what you will do with them, you can 1. dismiss it by reason of prejudice, or 2.you can study it for yourself and learn all you can....your choice, which do you choose (you aren't expected to answer that publically)
In simple and few words; Do you condone the killing of Children under ANY circumstances?
see above....blanket statments don't address every possible, just like our kid who runs infront of a car...
I am askin you and not the Bible! Please do not post anything from the Bible just give me a STRAIGHT and honest answer; YOUR answer!
that is my answer, not the bibles answer....even governments know this when they put all the provisos in the law.....no blanket statement covers all possibles in life.

Maybe if you reword your question I can give you a more satisfactory answer....try it and see where it takes me, be more specific about what kind of killing of children you are interested in?
 
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tanzanos

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Maybe if you reword your question I can give you a more satisfactory answer....try it and see where it takes me, be more specific about what kind of killing of children you are interested in?
OK; Do you condone the murder of children under any circumstances?
OR; Do you condone the intended killing of children.
 
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razzelflabben

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OK; Do you condone the murder of children under any circumstances?
OR; Do you condone the intended killing of children.
okay, let's try this, I do not think that premeditated murder of a child is acceptable, nor do I think that all children's deaths are evil, as in the case of accident....


Now let me also clarify this by adding that in the bible we see many times when God intervened to protect the children from those who would do them evil....in other words, it is also consistent with God's view....To do evil to a child is just plain wrong, but that doesn't mean that everything that can happen to a child is by default evil, somethings just happen, somethings are accidents, we tend to forget that in our present world, and it is why I can't just answer your question yes or no, because we have replaced reason with argument....sometimes children are causualties of war, does that make it evil? no, it makes it life.
 
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tanzanos

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okay, let's try this, I do not think that premeditated murder of a child is acceptable, nor do I think that all children's deaths are evil, as in the case of accident....


Now let me also clarify this by adding that in the bible we see many times when God intervened to protect the children from those who would do them evil....in other words, it is also consistent with God's view....To do evil to a child is just plain wrong, but that doesn't mean that everything that can happen to a child is by default evil, somethings just happen, somethings are accidents, we tend to forget that in our present world, and it is why I can't just answer your question yes or no, because we have replaced reason with argument....sometimes children are causualties of war, does that make it evil? no, it makes it life.
Casualties of WAR is ok by you?
Since you avoid answering my questions directly and instead play hide and seek; you make the occassional mistake of betraying your feelings which are totally in line with my opinion that you condone the killing of children as commanded by God.
You cannot hide the fact that in order to support your religion you stoop to justifying the killing of children.

Face it; The Bible is a book so full of evil that it should carry a warning label for minors!
 
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razzelflabben

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Casualties of WAR is ok by you?
not good, not "ok" but not evil....
Since you avoid answering my questions directly and instead play hide and seek; you make the occassional mistake of betraying your feelings which are totally in line with my opinion that you condone the killing of children as commanded by God.
be careful, I answered your question both directly and clearly...I do not condone premeditated murder of a child (or anyone for that matter) but where premeditated murder is evil, accidents are only that, accidents and not evil....some wars are evil, some are not, being killed in a war is not evil per sae, but rather just part of life....some people go around trying to convince everyone that anything they don't like is evil. That is crazy, not everything that is bad or sad in this life is evil, some things are just bad or sad....where a child dieing is sad, and bad, it doesn't have to be evil, it can be an accident, it can be part of something bigger, like war. In fact, the difference is why I asked you to specify which you intended, evil, or sad, or bad? I specified to you there is a difference and where I draw the line....now if I specify what I believe, than it seems quite odd that you would accuse me of "Since you avoid answering my questions directly and instead play hide and seek; you make the occassional mistake of betraying your feelings" seems like you would be much smarter to take what I said at face value rather than try to make it something I didn't say.....

Now as to God's command to kill the children...on that particular issue, I make no judgments. Personally, I could not have done as commanded, we already talked about that, and there were Isrealites that couldn't either, but as to where or not it was evil, it isn't for me to judge....thing is this, I wasn't there to know all the details, I am not God to see all that was hidden to man. So why or how could I fairly judge something like that? I tell my husband and parents this all the time with things in the government like this current Iraqi war for example. We know only what we have been told, nothing more, how then can we know enough to judge whether or not we should be there. I can say, based on the information I have, I think X but that is an admission that we have pieces of information missing from our understanding that prevent us from acurately judging the events. That would be my stance here with God. where the information I have would prevent me from condoning, I freely admit there is much I don't know which prevents me from judging.
You cannot hide the fact that in order to support your religion you stoop to justifying the killing of children.
I deny this accusation without hesitiation, in order for you to say this, you must totally ignore what I have said up to this point, which is a problem for you.
Face it; The Bible is a book so full of evil that it should carry a warning label for minors!
Actually, your right, it is a book of evils, man's evils...as to God's evils, that is a different matter....the bible shows only a God who defends those who are weak and oppressed by man......if fighting for the rights of the oppressed is evil, then sign me up....I'll take it, because as someone who has been oppressed, a defender is a wonderful thing.
 
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razzelflabben

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And to think that I did not even give you the rope!!!!!
Meaning? what exactly? Where do you think I hung myself? Let's say there is a war going on, in fact, they go on everyday in every country, sometimes called gangs, sometimes government sponsored, sometimes nature, but every single one is a war, a battle for survival. Now let's say that a child is caught in the middle, let's say that a bomb goes off and a child is too close to the sight and is killed....who then to we execute for that evil? Did the bomb know the child would be there and wish to kill the child? Did the bomber know that the child would go to work with his father that day? What of an even less black and white, what of the child who is running after his pet when he is suppose to be in a shelter, is that really evil? As I said, some causualties of war are sad and bad but that doesn't make them evil.

Nothing I am saying really makes sense to you? Anytime a child is hurt or dies, someone must be charged with the evil? Is that really what you want us to believe? The guy driving down the road, kid runs out in front of his car, he slams on the breaks but it's too late, the kid got hit and killed, wow look at the evil the guy in the car committed, he killed a kid...is that really what you want us to believe that you think in your heart? Man would our jails be full if every accident, every kid who was where they were not suppose to be resulted in a conviction for an adult. Do you have kids? Do you realize that sometimes kids do things and go places that they aren't suppose to do and go....what of the kid who finds an unexploded granade plays with the granade, it explodes, whose evil was that? Come on, I really can't believe that you or anyone else things that it is evil for a child to kill himself with a granade he finds in a war zone....bad situation, yes... very sad, without doubt.... shouldn't happen, of course... evil, no really.

so let's be open and frank, do you really think that everything bad, or sad that happens to a child is evil? Man do I have some stories for you about bad things happening that resulted in good, like every punishment a child recieves for bad behavior......talk about hanging ones self, you my friend just did.
 
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tanzanos

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Meaning? what exactly? Where do you think I hung myself? Let's say there is a war going on, in fact, they go on everyday in every country, sometimes called gangs, sometimes government sponsored, sometimes nature, but every single one is a war, a battle for survival. Now let's say that a child is caught in the middle, let's say that a bomb goes off and a child is too close to the sight and is killed....who then to we execute for that evil? Did the bomb know the child would be there and wish to kill the child? Did the bomber know that the child would go to work with his father that day? What of an even less black and white, what of the child who is running after his pet when he is suppose to be in a shelter, is that really evil? As I said, some causualties of war are sad and bad but that doesn't make them evil.
Anyone knowingly participating in fighting a war is responsible for the casualties created by that war. I am sure that the pilots of Enola Gay did not know exactly each and every person they were going to kill; but that does not mean they are not guilty of a heinous and evil crime against humanity. Your morals based on justifying wars as just another natural occurence is fundamentally evil! You should visit and live in one of the poor and war torn countries and maybe after seeing slaughtered children you will change your tune. Personally I have witnessed first hand such atrocities!
Now by the way which wars are NOT EVIL as you have stated in a previous post?????
 
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razzelflabben

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Anyone knowingly participating in fighting a war is responsible for the casualties created by that war. I am sure that the pilots of Enola Gay did not know exactly each and every person they were going to kill; but that does not mean they are not guilty of a heinous and evil crime against humanity. Your morals based on justifying wars as just another natural occurence is fundamentally evil! You should visit and live in one of the poor and war torn countries and maybe after seeing slaughtered children you will change your tune. Personally I have witnessed first hand such atrocities!
Now by the way which wars are NOT EVIL as you have stated in a previous post?????
so why then don't we put every soldier in the world into jail?

Let's look a Zimbabwe for example, it's a great example of what we are talking about here. Zimbabwe had a evil dictator that was killing thousands and thousands of people. children were starving to death at his hands, and would suck on salt so that they could drink water to fill their bellies so they didn't hurt from hunger. Is that evil enough of a situation to look at? The soldiers under his reign would rountinely rape and murder people, adults and children alike at will, stealing anything of value from the people. Is that evil enough for us to look at?

Okay, so we have the situation set up, we have a country being destroyed by an evil dictator, people including children dieing horrible deaths at the hands of evil men....now let's say that some country gets tired of it, goes in, and says, everyone has the right to be treated humanely. The two countries go to war one to retain power, the other to bring in a government in which the killing of innocent people including children would end. Is the war evil? both sides are evil because some of the children who are being starved to death by their government might be killed in the middle of this battle to save an entire country?

How can you say that a war to rescue a children being starved to death or murdered in gas chambers, or taken from their parents and put into slave camps where they are beaten to death after a day of working almost to death, is evil? Where I come from, rescuing children from the evils of man is an honorable thing not an evil one.
 
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tanzanos

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so why then don't we put every soldier in the world into jail?

Let's look a Zimbabwe for example, it's a great example of what we are talking about here. Zimbabwe had a evil dictator that was killing thousands and thousands of people. children were starving to death at his hands, and would suck on salt so that they could drink water to fill their bellies so they didn't hurt from hunger. Is that evil enough of a situation to look at? The soldiers under his reign would rountinely rape and murder people, adults and children alike at will, stealing anything of value from the people. Is that evil enough for us to look at?

Okay, so we have the situation set up, we have a country being destroyed by an evil dictator, people including children dieing horrible deaths at the hands of evil men....now let's say that some country gets tired of it, goes in, and says, everyone has the right to be treated humanely. The two countries go to war one to retain power, the other to bring in a government in which the killing of innocent people including children would end. Is the war evil? both sides are evil because some of the children who are being starved to death by their government might be killed in the middle of this battle to save an entire country?

How can you say that a war to rescue a children being starved to death or murdered in gas chambers, or taken from their parents and put into slave camps where they are beaten to death after a day of working almost to death, is evil? Where I come from, rescuing children from the evils of man is an honorable thing not an evil one.
If the politicians were forced to actually do the fighting then wars would become a thing of the past. You talk of Zimbabwe yet fail to mention the one man responsible for more deaths than any other in the 21st century; G.W.Bush. He should be in jail!

Now that you have managed to slightly sidetrack the topic,; let us go back to why you justify the killing of children by not condemning the commandments that God himself demands us to obey regarding the murdering of children?
 
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razzelflabben

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If the politicians were forced to actually do the fighting then wars would become a thing of the past.
no argument there, to take it further, if the politicians had to live like the people they govern, we would have a much more friendly world as well.
You talk of Zimbabwe yet fail to mention the one man responsible for more deaths than any other in the 21st century; G.W.Bush. He should be in jail!
I'm not even going to begin talking politics, you would be surprised at what my political views are I'm sure....but to keep the discussion on track, I am asking you how you can declare a war whose intent is to rescue starving children an evil war...that was the proclamation you made, that all war was evil...so how is a war intended to rescue the starving and dieing children evil?
Now that you have managed to slightly sidetrack the topic,; let us go back to why you justify the killing of children by not condemning the commandments that God himself demands us to obey regarding the murdering of children?
:confused: so when I ask you to defend your stance, it's a sidetrack?

:confused::confused::confused::confused: now I am even more confused than before....where do I condon the killing of children? Apparently you didn't read very carefully what I have been saying

Secondly, where does God give me the command to murder children? so far the best you can do is a specific incident that we talked about in depth, covering everything from culture to perspective and how some still thought it wrong and disobeyed and the result was quite unfavorable....we talked about the motivation, the concepts, and still you go on as if God is telling everyone through the ages to murder children....

I got to wonder if your reading anything I'm writing or if you are just trying to stir me to anger....either way, I'm not that easily angered nor tire of proclaiming truth to those who will listen even if they don't know they are hearing it.

So let's go back and review...there is a huge difference, especially in the OT, between man's law and God's law. Because of this huge difference, it is vital that we don't confuse the two, attributing to one what is anothers. So in the case of murder, none of God's law tells man to murder, but actually, it says not to murder.

But we have a "problem" because we have a command (one time deal (at least we have focused on one time)) where God said kill these children...what we have seen as we talked about it in reference to the biblical account is that based on culture and perspective, 1. it was a time of war 2. the children would have been abused had they lived 3. life begins after death therefore the children were being given grace 4. the people were protecting even more people by killing the people, including the children we are currently referring to.

Now, that is a pretty decent summary of our discussion so far, and I see nothing in that that suggests evil appart from someone who might not want to agree with the culture and/or perspectives given. Which is your right, but totally fails to see things from another point of view...
Let's look at a court of law, when a crime is commited, it is taken to court, and testimony is presented to determine whether the (in this case) murder was justifiable or not. We do that by looking at all the possible variables that could identify the motive of the murder, was the murderer insane, defending himself, etc. It is in seeing things through the murderers eyes that we can judge whether or not he is guilty of evil or justified in his actions (as in the case of self defense).
 
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tanzanos

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Secondly, where does God give me the command to murder children?
So let's go back and review...there is a huge difference, especially in the OT, between man's law and God's law. Because of this huge difference, it is vital that we don't confuse the two, attributing to one what is anothers. So in the case of murder, none of God's law tells man to murder, but actually, it says not to murder.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

But we have a "problem" because we have a command (one time deal (at least we have focused on one time)) where God said kill these children...what we have seen as we talked about it in reference to the biblical account is that based on culture and perspective, 1. it was a time of war 2. the children would have been abused had they lived 3. life begins after death therefore the children were being given grace 4. the people were protecting even more people by killing the people, including the children we are currently referring to.
Now where on earth does it say in the Bible that the OT is a ONE TIME DEAL??????????
But even so; why accept a religion based on incest, rape, murder, and all the evils known to man? It is like saying that Hitler was a good leader and the holocaust was just a one time deal!
The BIBLE is the BOOK which the Christian faith is based upon. It is in its entirety supposed to be followed.
Enough of this Hypocrisy!

Check out the following and tell me what kind of God and religion does things like that? (just reading it makes me sick; and I am supposed to worship such a God?):

(From the website: evilbible.com)

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents

2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.)

Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
 
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razzelflabben

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Crude, I just lost everything I had typed, aurg, starting over.....
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Let me see if I can explain this to someone who doesn't want to understand. Remember when we were talking about God's nature being one of not being able to look upon sin, thus the consequence of sin is death, that is spiritual death. this is the example of that right here. Lev. 20 is telling us about sin and that sin requires blood. But when Jesus came, died and rose again in the NT, He became that blood. Let me see, and analogy....let's take our child who runs in front of a car and just for the sake of condensing things in a long post lets say getting hit by a car equals death....okay, so we have our child sinning, and dieing, but Jesus comes and stands between the child and the car taking all the force of the car upon Himself. (which btw is a perfect evidence that God sees physical and spiritual death much different than man does) anyway, back to topic. the law, OT requires blood because blood is the consequence of sin, remember, spiritual and physical death and mixed together, they are connected, we already talked about that too. So in the NT, that blood is already covered, by Jesus the Christ.

Now one of the beautiful things about the NT is that it balances the OT and our understanding of what is being said. So let's look at the cross reference and see what the blood of Jesus did to this law...HEb. 12:14-15 Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness-without it no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no root of bitterness springs up, causing trouble and by it, defiling many.

so we see the purpose of the Lev. 20:9 passage, the purpose is that if we do not quard ourselves from the sin of stirring up trouble, people can't see who God really is. Kind of like your problems with God right now because of the evil you have seen man do to other men.

So let me ask you this, what do you think should be done to the men whom you have witnessed abusing others? Shall we reward them? Or kill them?
Now where on earth does it say in the Bible that the OT is a ONE TIME DEAL??????????
since I never suggested it did, I'm not sure who you are addressing, I'm saying that the specific situation we are speaking of here, was an command during an issue of war and it was not a blanket command for all of mankind all of the time. Like me telling my children they can't have a piece of the chocolate cake sitting on the counter vs saying always look before crossing the street. When God told the children of Isreal to kill even the children, it was specific to that insident and not a blanket command to kill every child throughout history.
But even so; why accept a religion based on incest, rape, murder, and all the evils known to man? It is like saying that Hitler was a good leader and the holocaust was just a one time deal!

The BIBLE is the BOOK which the Christian faith is based upon. It is in its entirety supposed to be followed.
Enough of this Hypocrisy!
did you read the whole chapter in Lev that you were referring to? Apparently not, because in it we find that it is sinful to molest, rape, adultery, murder, etc. Now websters defines hypocrisy as....1: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not ; especially : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue or religion2: an act or instance of hypocrisy

which suggests that you didn't read the passage in question at all, you might be surprised if you actually looked at it yourself. when I find hypocrisy in scripture I will stop following it but until there is some found, I find no reason to dismiss it.
Check out the following and tell me what kind of God and religion does things like that? (just reading it makes me sick; and I am supposed to worship such a God?):

(From the website: evilbible.com)

Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
you really don't read this stuff before you post do you? You were warned about evilbible.com and how it misses some enormous things, this is one.

for the sake of trying to keep the post a controlable length, I'll summarize for you. We have an evil people who are keeping many from life (spiritual) God decides to take revenge (remember our discussion about just wars, where someone goes in to rescue and protect the innocent) the Isrealites go to war, but instead of killing everyone they were instructed to, they left some live. Moses found out about it and ordered their murder.

So two glaring problems using this to show God as evil 1. it's a just war (at least from God's perspective, that is, protecting the innocent and 2. it is Moses command not God's.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
now this one is really cool because you don't have a clue at all what this passage really is even about much less what we find as we read it. Isreal needs restored, they went astray, vs. 13 clearly shows this is a passage of analogies, (which apparently I love) moving down through we see that the verse you find horrific is an analogy of what is going to happen to Isreal. Got to be my favorite objection you present so far.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
this also is a great objection to God in that God isn't a part of it, it's a written history of what man did....kind of like saying, here are the written records of what Hitler did, isn't God evil.....that is nuts, even God was upset by the kings and what they did, and in the Hoesa passage we see that this is indeed one of His complaints against Isreal and why they need restored, because they had evil kings like the one referred to here.

Your notes, which btw look like they are intended to be the passage, suggest that God should step in every time man does something evil. but what no one can answer is why should He? God tells us He won't intervene in every evil act of man, He has no purpose for intervening in every evil act of man, so why should He. If it serves no purpose for me to eat every cookie that comes into the house, and I announce that I won't eat every cookie that comes into the house, why should I then, turn around and eat every one? Simply doesn't make an ounce of sense. Your welcome to try to explain it, I'd actually love for someone to.

The OT is primarily a history book. this passage is an account of the doings of the King Menahem, not God.
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
I bet we all know what suckling infants are....but on to business, read vs. 1 and 2, why was it ordered? Because the people were evil. Again, that evil God declaring war to rescue the children from the evils of man.....you know, a just war.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
do you even know the story or what happened that they are referring to? Okay, another summary....The children of Isreal are slaves in Egypt. God is trying to convince Pharoh that he should let the Isrealites go but dispite all, pharoh's pride refuses. God warns him what will happen and Pharoh still refuses. Push comes to shove, and God instructed everyone who will listen that if they put lambs blood on the door post all will be well, but if they refuse, the first born in the household will die, this isn't just babies by the way, it is adults and babies, in my household growing up, both of my parents and my brother would have died. (so you got that part wrong as well) anyway, there is 1. a whole lot of warning and 2. a way of escape for all who would take the warning, before God killed the first born...kind of like my kids getting into a fight, me warning them that if they don't cool it they will be punished for fighting, me warning them a few times, them defying me, they get punished and I am evil because I stopped them from fighting with one another. Wow!
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.
even the title of this song tells us what it is about...you did know that the Psalms are songs right? The captive's cry for vengance. That about covers it, like a slave saying come one kill them all so we can be free.
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
covered above.
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
again it would seem you did not read the story, God commanded nothing. Jephthah made a pledge, a pledge his daughter talked him into keeping, where in the passage does it say God commanded anything. The closest you can come is the spirit of the Lord coming upon Jephthah....let's compare it to this analogy, I'm trapped in a building, dying, I pray to God and promise Him that if I get out alive I will go into full time ministry. Did God command me to go into full time ministry? No, I made that promise. In fact, God tells us not to pray such things.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
covered above.
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
wow, talk about taking things out of context, read vs.26-28 it is clearly stated that it was not a command of God. I mean I don't know how it could be any clearer that this was man's doing. vs. 26 As the king of Isreal was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him, "My lord the king, help!" He answered, "If the Lord doesn't help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor or the winepress?" Then the king asked her, "what's the matter?" She said, "This woman said to me, 'give up your son, and we will eat him today. then we will eat my sone tomorrow....'

In this one, there isn't even a pretense of God commanding such a thing. it appears that your beef with God is really one of misplaced anger against man.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
this relates back to the first one we talked about and you can apply what is said there here to make this shorter. Notice also God referred to but not credited with commanding said thing.
 
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razzelflabben

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Part 2

Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?[/quote] see above where we go into a summary of what happened, 1. there was ample warning 2. there was a means of preventing the death provided, kind of like saying, take this antibiotic and you won't die, who is responsible? me, or the Dr. who gave the antibiotic to me? Is the Dr. responsible for forcing it upon me?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents
covered this one already, now we're just getting into repeats and the troubling thing is that not a single one you show, paints God as evil, only man. In fact, of those that have anything to do with God Himself, it paints a picture of a God who is willing to destroy the oppressors, which is usually deemed noble.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prop
het turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
got to ask this question, where does it say God sent the bears? If I say, you are cursed, does that mean two bears are going to come out of the woods and eat you? If you want to make a point about God being evil, then show where God sent the bears to eat the children. The text doesn't even come close.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
vs. 27 "And IF in spite of this you do not obey Me but act with hostility toward ME, I will act with furious hostility toward you; I will also discipline you seven times for your sins. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons; you will eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and heap your dead bodies on the lifeless bodies of your idols; I will reject you. 31 I will reduce your cities to ruins and devastate your sanctuaries. I will not smell the pleasing aroma o fyour sacrifices.

Notice the differences between what God will do to them and what they will do. It's a picture of how evil man can and does become when God is not centeral to His life. Big huge difference between what man will become and what God will do. You really should read these before you make snap judgements.
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.)
Notice in the complete passage two important things, 1. God was angry that Saul turned from following God. It's a loyalty issue and 2. Saul killed everything worthless, keeping treasures for himself, he killed all the people. The disobedience was in taking spoils to profit from the war, not serve "justice".
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
you do realize this is talking about future judgment don't you? More figurative speach, poetic, and futuristic, not sure what your real objection is.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
self defense so to speak, read the whole chapter.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
more war talk and judgment.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.
Beautiful, thanks for including it, notice how the text flows, God judges a people, the specific prophet feels rejected, and then we come to ch.3 vs. 21 and it bears reading...

Yet I call this to mind, and therefore I have hope:

Because of the Lord's faithful love
we do not perish.
for His mercies never end.
They are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness!
I say: The Lord is my portion,
therfore I will put my hope in Him.
The Lord is good to those who wait for Him, to the person who seeks Him.
It is good to wait quietly for deliverance from the Lord.
It is good for a man to bear the yoke while he is still young.

Let him sit alone and be silent, for God has disciplined him.
Let him put his mouth in the dust-
perhaps there is still hope.
Let him offer his cheek to the one who would strike him;
let him be filled with shame.
For the Lord will not reject us forever,
Even if He causes suffering He will show compassion according to His abundant, faithful, love.
for He does not enjoy bringing affliction or suffering on mankind.

Crushing all the prisoners of the land beneith one's feet,
denying justice to a man in the presence of the Most High,
or suppressing a person't lawsuit- the Lord does not approve of these things.
 
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tanzanos

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The OT is primarily a history book. this passage is an account of the doings of the King Menahem, not God. I bet we all know what suckling infants are....but on to business, read vs. 1 and 2, why was it ordered? Because the people were evil. Again, that evil God declaring war to rescue the children from the evils of man.....you know, a just war. do you even know the story or what happened that they are referring to? Okay, another summary....The children of Isreal are slaves in Egypt. God is trying to convince Pharoh that he should let the Isrealites go but dispite all, pharoh's pride refuses. God warns him what will happen and Pharoh still refuses. Push comes to shove, and God instructed everyone who will listen that if they put lambs blood on the door post all will be well, but if they refuse, the first born in the household will die, this isn't just babies by the way, it is adults and babies, in my household growing up, both of my parents and my brother would have died. (so you got that part wrong as well) anyway, there is 1. a whole lot of warning and 2. a way of escape for all who would take the warning, before God killed the first born...kind of like my kids getting into a fight, me warning them that if they don't cool it they will be punished for fighting, me warning them a few times, them defying me, they get punished and I am evil because I stopped them from fighting with one another. Wow! even the title of this song tells us what it is about...you did know that the Psalms are songs right? The captive's cry for vengance. That about covers it, like a slave saying come one kill them all so we can be free. covered above. again it would seem you did not read the story, God commanded nothing. Jephthah made a pledge, a pledge his daughter talked him into keeping, where in the passage does it say God commanded anything. The closest you can come is the spirit of the Lord coming upon Jephthah....let's compare it to this analogy, I'm trapped in a building, dying, I pray to God and promise Him that if I get out alive I will go into full time ministry. Did God command me to go into full time ministry? No, I made that promise. In fact, God tells us not to pray such things. covered above. wow, talk about taking things out of context, read vs.26-28 it is clearly stated that it was not a command of God. I mean I don't know how it could be any clearer that this was man's doing. vs. 26 As the king of Isreal was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him, "My lord the king, help!" He answered, "If the Lord doesn't help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor or the winepress?" Then the king asked her, "what's the matter?" She said, "This woman said to me, 'give up your son, and we will eat him today. then we will eat my sone tomorrow....'

In this one, there isn't even a pretense of God commanding such a thing. it appears that your beef with God is really one of misplaced anger against man. this relates back to the first one we talked about and you can apply what is said there here to make this shorter. Notice also God referred to but not credited with commanding said thing.

Jesus, who clearly is of greater importance than Paul, said the Old Law was to remain in force until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished (“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”-Matthew 5:18-19 RSV). Heaven and earth still exist and many prophecies are not yet fulfilled.

If I express my true feelings here; then I surely will be banned! So having this handicap, I shall try to stick to Bible Quotes!
By the way; your long and repeating quotes (yes I do read them) do nothing to debate my claims. You are doing your best to "dress the evil" with explanations that are purely your opinions. I ask for a simple answer and you patronise me. What more can I say?

Just answer the questions without camouflaging the answers with irrelevant examples and opinions.

Be more Laconic and precise.

I do however feel for you since you have to justify a book that is ambiguous, self exclusive, hypocritical, and much more. :wave:
 
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