Dark Matter/Energy

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humblemuslim

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Theories of the physics of gravity were first developed by Isaac Newton in 1687 and refined by Albert Einstein’s theory of General Relativity in 1905 which stated that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light. However, Einstein was never fully decided on whether his equation should add an omnipresent constant source, now called dark energy in general.

Source - Dark Fluid: Dark Matter And Dark Energy May Be Two Faces Of Same Coin


Dark matter and dark energy are two of the most vexing problems in science today. Together they dominate the universe, comprising some 96 percent of all mass and energy.
But nobody knows what either is. It's tempting to consider them products of the same unknown phenomenon, something theorist Robert Scherrer suggests. The professor of physics at Vanderbilt University says "k-essence" is behind it all.
Dark matter was invoked decades ago to explain why galaxies hold together. Given regular matter alone, galaxies might never have formed, and today they would fly apart. So there must be some unknown stuff that forms invisible clumps to act as gravitational glue.

Source - Dark Matter and Dark Energy: One and the Same?


Atheists commonly jest at believers in God because God is unseen. Yet scientists are coming up with theories regarding an unseen phenomena that comprises 96% of the known universe, because given our traditional scientific theories the current state of the universe should be impossible. ^_^
 

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Thanks for the science links, humblemuslim. They are interesting.

Atheists commonly jest at believers in God because God is unseen. Yet scientists are coming up with theories regarding an unseen phenomena that comprises 96% of the known universe, because given our traditional scientific theories the current state of the universe should be impossible. ^_^

Yes?

At least those theories regarding dark fluid are testable. "God" seems stubbornly resistant to any scientific means of detection, even through indirect means as currently required by dark matter/energy, and theists are reluctant to provide any test by which the existence of God can be falsified. God is not merely "unseen". This is what atheists object to.

So, how would you falsify the God hypothesis? What observation would tell you that God doesn't exist?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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humblemuslim

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Thousands of years ago no one would've thought it possible to walk on the moon or even discover the existance of other solar systems. Who says years from now we won't be able to disprove the existance of a god?

Only time will tell. Although, I believe the pinnacle of disproof, which would hardly amount to true disproof, of some greater power(s) would be a complete explanation of the universe that would remove the requirement for said greater power(s).

Yet, even if humanity can explain all the "rules" of our universe, that in and of itself does not disprove a creator.

If by the process of nature someone is able to set up a design in harmony with the world around it, yet purposeful as defined by the creator, does that disprove that the creator exists? Not necessarily. But it does not prove they exist either. Unless of course the person unsure of their existence is able to see the meaningful purpose.

Consider a cinematic example, The Matrix.

Morpheus said:
What is "real"? How do you define "real"?

Consider the possibility that we are trapped, slaves, as people are in the movie The Matrix. How would we know? Now the people in the movie know because through disbelief in the system they are able to perform supernatural achievements and ultimately escape the system. But let us imagine a superior system that offers no such luck. The designer of our "Matrix" has left no flaws.

My only point for all of this is that the idea of a greater power, be it referred to as God or something else, is not an idea beyond reason. It is not an idea worthy of jest. It is not an idea that is impossible as some suggest.

Of course nothing said here proves God exists. But I do find these sources and topic of great interest. What if this force of nature holding the universe together is caused by God as evidence of God's existence? That is an idea that has intrigued me.
 
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Penumbra

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Atheists commonly jest at believers in God because God is unseen. Yet scientists are coming up with theories regarding an unseen phenomena that comprises 96% of the known universe, because given our traditional scientific theories the current state of the universe should be impossible. ^_^
The difference is, scientists are relying on an objective method to discern what makes up our universe. Dark Energy is like wind, they can't see it, but they can still notice its effects objectively. There's no doubt that dark energy and dark matter are mysterious, but scientists admit that. They explain what they know and admit what they do not know, and then form objective methods of discerning what is true from what is false.
 
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humblemuslim

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Thanks for the science links, humblemuslim. They are interesting.



Yes?

At least those theories regarding dark fluid are testable. "God" seems stubbornly resistant to any scientific means of detection, even through indirect means as currently required by dark matter/energy, and theists are reluctant to provide any test by which the existence of God can be falsified. God is not merely "unseen". This is what atheists object to.

So, how would you falsify the God hypothesis? What observation would tell you that God doesn't exist?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Scientific detection requires the use of our senses, empirical means. How does one empirical determine the existence or nonexistence of something outside of the system? If we have any chance of finding evidence of God's existence we must look at the creation of said creator.

However, while pursuing this end we come to an inevitable problem. What criterion is to be used to decide whether the evidence is sufficient or not? I have yet to see this important question addressed completely, because by nature of indirect evidence the conclusion drawn even from objective raw data can be quite subjective depending on the temperament of the individual analyzing the data.

Added problems are present while analyzing something as complex and vast as the universe. The system exceeds our current cognitive achievements. The result is the theory of probability, a field the thrives on the ignorance of the true nature of the universe. The very nature of probability is actually abused by both sides, both those who believe and those who do not. Believers will claim the universe is too complex to have happened by chance. Nonbelievers will evoke scientific theories based on principles of probability (Chance). Theories such as evolution are heavily dependent on notions of probability due to our lack of understanding of what is actually occurring. The notion of "Random Mutations" is one such aspect.
 
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humblemuslim

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The difference is, scientists are relying on an objective method to discern what makes up our universe. Dark Energy is like wind, they can't see it, but they can still notice its effects objectively. There's no doubt that dark energy and dark matter are mysterious, but scientists admit that. They explain what they know and admit what they do not know, and then form objective methods of discerning what is true from what is false.

The notion of a creator is not necessarily subjective. Subjective elements do find their way into people's understandings of a creator(s), but the base concept is an acceptable hypothesis. The means of testing this hypothesis are problematic though, which appears to be the reason why some atheists will jest believers. Although, even scientific theories have been jested at the time of their conception. This attitude of the hypothesis of a creator being 'silly' is all I challenge.

There are some scientific theories which can never be truly positively confirmed. Although the Big Bang Theory sounds plausible and I personally have no problem with the theory, the theory can not be properly tested. Any test performed today could provide support, however the problem of excessive extrapolation plagues us. We cannot assume the world ever so many billions or trillions of years ago matches the universe we are familiar with today. Shall we then jest at the notion of the Big Bang? Certainly not. Although skepticism can be warranted.
 
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arunma

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Thousands of years ago no one would've thought it possible to walk on the moon or even discover the existance of other solar systems. Who says years from now we won't be able to disprove the existance of a god?

That's not a terribly scientific assessment. Case in point: who says years from now we won't be able to prove the existence of some god?
 
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Penumbra

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The notion of a creator is not necessarily subjective. Subjective elements do find their way into people's understandings of a creator(s), but the base concept is an acceptable hypothesis.
Oh, I don't think the notion of a creator is subjective at all. Either there was one, many of them, or none of them. There are nearly an infinite amount of possibilities associated with whether there was a creator or not and what his qualities and connection with the universe might be, but it should be an objective issue.

The means of testing this hypothesis are problematic though, which appears to be the reason why some atheists will jest believers. Although, even scientific theories have been jested at the time of their conception. This attitude of the hypothesis of a creator being 'silly' is all I challenge.

There are some scientific theories which can never be truly positively confirmed. Although the Big Bang Theory sounds plausible and I personally have no problem with the theory, the theory can not be properly tested. Any test performed today could provide support, however the problem of excessive extrapolation plagues us. We cannot assume the world ever so many billions or trillions of years ago matches the universe we are familiar with today. Shall we then jest at the notion of the Big Bang? Certainly not. Although skepticism can be warranted.
I agree that the hypothesis of a creator should not be discarded.

I still see a difference between a god hypothesis and things like the Big Bang theory. With the Big Bang theory, there are measurements that allude to its truth that can be repeated and verified. It cannot be "tested" in the sense that scientists cannot currently simulate a Big Bang and may never be able to, but they can still test aspects of it to discern whether it is accurate or not. A better word than "testable" to use is "falsifiable". The Big Bang is theoretically falsifiable, should sufficient evidence lead to that conclusion.

Is the god you believe in theoretically falsifiable?
 
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humblemuslim

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Oh, I don't think the notion of a creator is subjective at all. Either there was one, many of them, or none of them. There are nearly an infinite amount of possibilities associated with whether there was a creator or not and what his qualities and connection with the universe might be, but it should be an objective issue.

I agree that the hypothesis of a creator should not be discarded.

I still see a difference between a god hypothesis and things like the Big Bang theory. With the Big Bang theory, there are measurements that allude to its truth that can be repeated and verified. It cannot be "tested" in the sense that scientists cannot currently simulate a Big Bang and may never be able to, but they can still test aspects of it to discern whether it is accurate or not. A better word than "testable" to use is "falsifiable". The Big Bang is theoretically falsifiable, should sufficient evidence lead to that conclusion.

Is the god you believe in theoretically falsifiable?

Well the simple answer, which is no doubt less than a satisfactory answer for our discussion here, is yes the claim is falsifiable through our experience of death. Of course, I state this with the assumption that the religion being regarded contains beliefs in an afterlife, which is true of a multitude of religions.

If God does not exist then we go into an eternal slumber, game over. If God does exist, then it becomes a matter of what God decides to do with us when we die. A question that many religions have addressed in a multitude of ways (Hell, Reincarnation, Heaven, etc.).

However, this is not terribly useful for people unsure of God's existence who are still alive. In order to falsify or verify the existence of God while still alive we would have to first agree upon an objective set of criterion.

I believe it is quite dishonest when believers proclaim with absolute certainty that God exists, though they may believe it. I certainly do believe in God, but I am not absolutely certain of God's existence. One can have belief without certainty, that is what scientists call hypotheses and what theologians call faith. I have asserted that I hold the belief and now my life and ultimately my death will be the test that will either falsify my belief or verify it.
 
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Penumbra

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Well the simple answer, which is no doubt less than a satisfactory answer for our discussion here, is yes the claim is falsifiable through our experience of death. Of course, I state this with the assumption that the religion being regarded contains beliefs in an afterlife, which is true of a multitude of religions.

If God does not exist then we go into an eternal slumber, game over. If God does exist, then it becomes a matter of what God decides to do with us when we die. A question that many religions have addressed in a multitude of ways (Hell, Reincarnation, Heaven, etc.).
That is true for at least western religions. With eastern religions that believe in reincarnation, when you are born into another life, you (usually) don't remember the previous one.

However, this is not terribly useful for people unsure of God's existence who are still alive. In order to falsify or verify the existence of God while still alive we would have to first agree upon an objective set of criterion.
I agree.

People across the world all have different conceptions of god. Some of them, especially in the west, are quite blunt and objective. They are claimed to answer prayers, judge humanity, and although affect humanity, they remain somewhat separate from it. They are easier to discuss. In other religions, the definition of God is so much more subtle. God is the universe, God is love, God is everything. But I'd rather just call those things the universe, love, and everything because it's more clear. I prefer to define a god as some sort of overarching universal intelligence, otherwise I'll just call it what it is, be it love or the universe or whatever.

What criterion do you use?

I believe it is quite dishonest when believers proclaim with absolute certainty that God exists, though they may believe it. I certainly do believe in God, but I am not absolutely certain of God's existence. One can have belief without certainty, that is what scientists call hypotheses and what theologians call faith. I have asserted that I hold the belief and now my life and ultimately my death will be the test that will either falsify my belief or verify it.
If you are uncertain of the existence of God, may I ask what lead you to one religion in particular? Many religions are built around quite different conceptions of god. Were you born into a family that practices Islam, or did you convert to it after something about it brought you in?
 
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humblemuslim

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That is true for at least western religions. With eastern religions that believe in reincarnation, when you are born into another life, you (usually) don't remember the previous one.

This is true.

I prefer to define a god as some sort of overarching universal intelligence, otherwise I'll just call it what it is, be it love or the universe or whatever.

What criterion do you use?

My definition for God is simply the creator of the universe. All other attributes are bound to imperfectly describe God as God is outside the our known world. Especially terms like 'omnipresent' and 'omnipotent' etc. The idea of infinity, although present even in fields such as mathematics, is beyond human comprehension and thrown around carelessly at times to describe a phenomenon beyond convenient or reasonable comprehension. It is also used to convenient approximate something sizable in magnitude. Both of which are at play when attributes are given to God.

If you are uncertain of the existence of God, may I ask what lead you to one religion in particular? Many religions are built around quite different conceptions of god. Were you born into a family that practices Islam, or did you convert to it after something about it brought you in?

I was raised in a muslim family. My mother, from the southern US, converted to Islam. My father, from Jordan, has gone through his own religious struggles and research. He told me at one time he had lost all his faith identifying as an atheist. Later in his life after additional study he returned to Islam. I do have many Christian family members on my father's mother's side (She was also from the US), and mother's family. I also have many muslim family members on my father's father's side of the family. So I have been exposed mainly to Atheism, Christainity, and Islam. Although investing time in learning about Christianity also dives some into Judaism, which has prompted me to study Judaism as well. In college I also took some religous studies courses out of interest for theology and learned more about Hinduism and Buddhism primarly. Luckily, I also have some good Jewish, Hindu, muslim, Christian, and Atheist friends. And of course I have ventured onto internet forums governed by various religious dispositions discussing religion for many years off and on. All of these sources and life experiences have lead me to Islam. It has been a long process needless to say :D
 
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Penumbra

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This is true.

My definition for God is simply the creator of the universe. All other attributes are bound to imperfectly describe God as God is outside the our known world. Especially terms like 'omnipresent' and 'omnipotent' etc. The idea of infinity, although present even in fields such as mathematics, is beyond human comprehension and thrown around carelessly at times to describe a phenomenon beyond convenient or reasonable comprehension. It is also used to convenient approximate something sizable in magnitude. Both of which are at play when attributes are given to God.
Does your definition of God as the creator of the universe also include intelligence as a part of it, or no?

If, for example, the universe was created by physical means, quantum fluctuations, or there are multiple or possibly infinite universes being created off of each other throughout eternity, would these causes be termed "God" in your opinion or no? Or would you only consider this creator of the universe to be God if it is an intelligent, conscious force?

I was raised in a muslim family. My mother, from the southern US, converted to Islam. My father, from Jordan, has gone through his own religious struggles and research. He told me at one time he had lost all his faith identifying as an atheist. Later in his life after additional study he returned to Islam. I do have many Christian family members on my father's mother's side (She was also from the US), and mother's family. I also have many muslim family members on my father's father's side of the family. So I have been exposed mainly to Atheism, Christainity, and Islam. Although investing time in learning about Christianity also dives some into Judaism, which has prompted me to study Judaism as well. In college I also took some religous studies courses out of interest for theology and learned more about Hinduism and Buddhism primarly. Luckily, I also have some good Jewish, Hindu, muslim, Christian, and Atheist friends. And of course I have ventured onto internet forums governed by various religious dispositions discussing religion for many years off and on. All of these sources and life experiences have lead me to Islam. It has been a long process needless to say :D
Interesting. I also took religious studies classes in college. :)
 
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Erfan777

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The big bang theory is a joke, it has lots of holes in it. One of the things is, according to big bang theory, time started after big bang and before big bang there was no time...o_O...now how can u make sense of that? When u try to question them about how it is possible for there to be no time befoe big bang, most of them try to avoid the question and switch something else ^^

The dark matter is a thoery related to the mass of the universe, ppl r trying to find out where does the universe gets its mass frm. They say that in the galaxy a maximum of 10% of the matter exist in the galaxy, so much of the mass of a galaxy and the Universe itself must be dark matter.

Now nobody clearly knows what this dark matter consists off, which is why theories come up with this subject. If dark matter do exist, then there must be a heck of them, so the possible thoeries that scientists come up with are...

MACHOs (Massive Astronomical Compact Halo Objects), where most of the mass could come frm low-mass failed stars or high mass planets, and could be even black hole (btw, black hole is also a theory as it can never be seen). Now these things will produce little or no lights.

It is said that there are very tiny lil particles called neutrinos, who mass are not known, but scientists says that if their mass are not 0 but really really small, and if they are like a zillion of them on the universe, then this could be the link to the missing mass.

Some even say that the current theories of gravity are not completely correct. In other words, what what science mostly produce is theories which may seem to fit in for at the current situation, but in the future ppl just dump most of theories as being incorrect and make a new one that seems to better than before and so on and on and it contunues. Theories are just assumptions, u really cannot prove them to be 100% right all the time. And for you my atheist friends, you cannot really prove God to not exist, u haven't done in the past and u will never be able to do so in the future...just trust me on that ;) . Its the same for us I think, we cannot really prove God to be true with 100% accuracy, otherwise I don't think it will be called a faith. We just have to have our faith in the Almighty God and ask ofr Him to strengthen our faith. Even though almost all of our faith in God is really, really small as we could be able to move mountains if we had faith as small as as a muster seed. God is there for us, I don't think it just blindly believeing in something but there are ways which God may use to give us a high percentage of certainity that He does exist and help us walk through the road of life and stay away frm the road of death.
 
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arunma

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Hi Erfan. I believe you may have been somewhat misinformed about certain scientific matters, and I would like to see if I can help you to have a right understanding of them.

The big bang theory is a joke, it has lots of holes in it. One of the things is, according to big bang theory, time started after big bang and before big bang there was no time...o_O...now how can u make sense of that? When u try to question them about how it is possible for there to be no time befoe big bang, most of them try to avoid the question and switch something else ^^

Actually the Big Bang theory is rather well-respected. It is testable, and offers certain predictions. One of the hallmarks of Big Bang cosmology is that it can be used to predict the age of the universe to within an order of magnitude or so, and the experiment used to acquire this data is actually quite simple. As for the issue of no time before the Big Bang, this isn't really such a far-fetched concept. If time doesn't have a beginning, then the only alternative is a steady-state, eternal universe. And since the universe ages over time, it probably isn't eternal. Besides this, the Bible itself implies that there was no time before creation.

The dark matter is a thoery related to the mass of the universe, ppl r trying to find out where does the universe gets its mass frm. They say that in the galaxy a maximum of 10% of the matter exist in the galaxy, so much of the mass of a galaxy and the Universe itself must be dark matter.

Now nobody clearly knows what this dark matter consists off, which is why theories come up with this subject. If dark matter do exist, then there must be a heck of them, so the possible thoeries that scientists come up with are...

MACHOs (Massive Astronomical Compact Halo Objects), where most of the mass could come frm low-mass failed stars or high mass planets, and could be even black hole (btw, black hole is also a theory as it can never be seen). Now these things will produce little or no lights.

It is said that there are very tiny lil particles called neutrinos, who mass are not known, but scientists says that if their mass are not 0 but really really small, and if they are like a zillion of them on the universe, then this could be the link to the missing mass.

There are a few things here I should address. First, I haven't yet heard of any theories to the effect that neutrinos could be responsible for the observed deviation from our understanding of gravity, since neutrinos have a very small mass. However, I should point out that the neutrino's existence has been confirmed, and we can even detect them. Secondly, the existence of black holes has likewise been confirmed. You can even look up pictures of black holes from astronomical observations. Finally, it's important to understand the scientist's understanding of the word "theory." A model (i.e. a way of understanding some physical phenomenon) is only called a theory when it has repeatedly yielded accurate predictions. Science doesn't deal with absolute truth very often, but theories are about as close as we come. So the word "theory" in science is a different usage than, say, in a murder investigation.

Some even say that the current theories of gravity are not completely correct.

Actually the current theory of gravity isn't completely correct, since it contradicts quantum mechanics (which is supported even better). However, the dark matter problem arises from galactic rotation curves, where quantum effects are irrelevant. So the problem with gravity doesn't explain the dark matter problem.

In other words, what what science mostly produce is theories which may seem to fit in for at the current situation, but in the future ppl just dump most of theories as being incorrect and make a new one that seems to better than before and so on and on and it contunues. Theories are just assumptions, u really cannot prove them to be 100% right all the time.

But isn't this true of all physical observations? You can't prove anything to be completely true except in a philosophical framework. People naturally try to explain physical phenomena that they see in the world, and these explanations are always lacking in one way or another. Science allows us to constantly refine these explanations, and it is a far superior method to random guessing. What you have described actually demonstrates the intrinsic power of the scientific process: theories are always improving. That is why it is reliable.

And for you my atheist friends, you cannot really prove God to not exist, u haven't done in the past and u will never be able to do so in the future...just trust me on that ;) . Its the same for us I think, we cannot really prove God to be true with 100% accuracy, otherwise I don't think it will be called a faith. We just have to have our faith in the Almighty God and ask ofr Him to strengthen our faith. Even though almost all of our faith in God is really, really small as we could be able to move mountains if we had faith as small as as a muster seed. God is there for us, I don't think it just blindly believeing in something but there are ways which God may use to give us a high percentage of certainity that He does exist and help us walk through the road of life and stay away frm the road of death.

Let's be careful not to place too much faith in uncertainty. Please remember that Biblical faith is an informed hope in the words of God. The requirement of faith does not mean that it is not possible to be certain about God's existence. For example, do you believe that the apostles who saw the bodily resurrection of Christ from death had any reason to doubt the existence of God? Certainly not, and yet the last chapter of Matthew states that even when Jesus was raised from death, a few among his worshipers doubted. It's a common human trait to doubt even in the absence of incontrovertible proof. Faith in Jesus Christ is not blind faith, rather it is based on objective truths.
 
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rahmiyn

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I still see a difference between a god hypothesis and things like the Big Bang theory. With the Big Bang theory, there are measurements that allude to its truth that can be repeated and verified. It cannot be "tested" in the sense that scientists cannot currently simulate a Big Bang and may never be able to, but they can still test aspects of it to discern whether it is accurate or not. A better word than "testable" to use is "falsifiable". The Big Bang is theoretically falsifiable, should sufficient evidence lead to that conclusion.

Is the god you believe in theoretically falsifiable?

But, for me, the issue is not the Big Bang versus God, the issue is something coming from nothing.

Both, require an equal faith in something not provable.
 
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arunma

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But, for me, the issue is not the Big Bang versus God, the issue is something coming from nothing.

Both, require an equal faith in something not provable.

May I ask why something coming from nothing is an issue for you? It says,
By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. (Hebrews 11:3)
It seems to me that the Big Bang theory agrees with the Biblical doctrine of ex nihilo creation.
 
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Erfan777

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Hi Erfan. I believe you may have been somewhat misinformed about certain scientific matters, and I would like to see if I can help you to have a right understanding of them.

Its okay, basicaly the knowledge just came through of what I have been taught in physics on the topic Astrophysic. Maybe my knowledge isn't that broad enough than yours :) .

Actually the Big Bang theory is rather well-respected. It is testable, and offers certain predictions. One of the hallmarks of Big Bang cosmology is that it can be used to predict the age of the universe to within an order of magnitude or so, and the experiment used to acquire this data is actually quite simple. As for the issue of no time before the Big Bang, this isn't really such a far-fetched concept. If time doesn't have a beginning, then the only alternative is a steady-state, eternal universe. And since the universe ages over time, it probably isn't eternal. Besides this, the Bible itself implies that there was no time before creation.

Can u possibly explain, what u mean by eternal universe. I mean it may not sense if seen scientifically that before big bang there was no time...I mean then if the universe was in a steady-state, then for how long was it steady (ofcourse it cannot be told since there was no time before universe) and what caused this big bang and what was happening before that, surely the big bang needed some sort of activation energy to begin its process? When approaching this in a scietific way, this may not makes sense really.

And yes, mathematically the space is not inifnite but is curved ( I think you know the Olbers' paradox) and as it suggested that at the beginning of big bang, the expansion of space was rapid, however it is also said that the force of gravity between all masses in the universe has also been acting and so the expansion got slower, thus the universe is suggested to have 3 types of future: Open, closed and flat universe.

There are a few things here I should address. First, I haven't yet heard of any theories to the effect that neutrinos could be responsible for the observed deviation from our understanding of gravity, since neutrinos have a very small mass. However, I should point out that the neutrino's existence has been confirmed, and we can even detect them. Secondly, the existence of black holes has likewise been confirmed. You can even look up pictures of black holes from astronomical observations. Finally, it's important to understand the scientist's understanding of the word "theory." A model (i.e. a way of understanding some physical phenomenon) is only called a theory when it has repeatedly yielded accurate predictions. Science doesn't deal with absolute truth very often, but theories are about as close as we come. So the word "theory" in science is a different usage than, say, in a murder investigation.

Actually neutrinos are one of the aspects, just think about it, yes they do have very small masses but they are really really massive, don't u think if we add all the masses of the neutrinos then, it could be a huge number? Further explanation can be given here: Neutrinos as Dark Matter

My apologies, sorry yes there have been detection of blackhole. Although u cannot view it visibly, since no light can emit frm black hole, but yes u can detect them by observing the rotation of stars and such.

And yes theory does not contain absolute truth which is what I also meant before. Sometimes they can be quite misleading, remember Olber's paradox again. Newton suggested that the space is infinite, but now it is suggested that it is actually not. The Olbers' paradox is really interesting :)

Actually the current theory of gravity isn't completely correct, since it contradicts quantum mechanics (which is supported even better). However, the dark matter problem arises from galactic rotation curves, where quantum effects are irrelevant. So the problem with gravity doesn't explain the dark matter problem.

True, I just wanted to put the statement about theory of gravity not being correct even though it is not really related to the dark matter :D


But isn't this true of all physical observations? You can't prove anything to be completely true except in a philosophical framework. People naturally try to explain physical phenomena that they see in the world, and these explanations are always lacking in one way or another. Science allows us to constantly refine these explanations, and it is a far superior method to random guessing. What you have described actually demonstrates the intrinsic power of the scientific process: theories are always improving. That is why it is reliable.

Yes that is also true.:sorry:

Let's be careful not to place too much faith in uncertainty. Please remember that Biblical faith is an informed hope in the words of God. The requirement of faith does not mean that it is not possible to be certain about God's existence. For example, do you believe that the apostles who saw the bodily resurrection of Christ from death had any reason to doubt the existence of God? Certainly not, and yet the last chapter of Matthew states that even when Jesus was raised from death, a few among his worshipers doubted. It's a common human trait to doubt even in the absence of incontrovertible proof. Faith in Jesus Christ is not blind faith, rather it is based on objective truths.

Ah yes, its our human nature :) to doubt. And yes I agree, faith in Jesus Christ should not be a blind faith, but faith and knowing is two different thing I believe. You don't actually know that God is there because you haven't seen Him I guess, but you believe that He exists and so have faith in Him. (I hope God wouldn't mind of what I am saying here)

What I have told here may not be really right if seen in great details as it is what I have in my knowledge, afterall I was just a student who studied Astrophysic for two years till now and what I have been taught could be just s small bit. It may not look professional since I didn't copy-paste stuff from the net, so sorry if it looks unscientific for some reason :sorry:
 
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Penumbra

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But, for me, the issue is not the Big Bang versus God, the issue is something coming from nothing.

Both, require an equal faith in something not provable.
Who says something came from nothing? I don't, and none of the atheists or agnostics I know personally do either.

So what faith do you speak of?
 
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