My Ecliptic Challenge

AV1611VET · May 26, 2009

Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

Hespera · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

So basically------you are saying-------assuming you are right------how could you be wrong?

Nothing there to discuss other than wrong / false assumption.

Matthewj1985 · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

You are bringing magic into a scientific question, it is a non-starter no different than debating the size of angel's wings.

[serious] · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

1. The sun stopped in the sky, not the earth
2. The sun is moving at 1.3 million miles per hour in reference to the CBR
3. The earth is currently ~93 million miles from the sun. An arbitrary stoppage of the sun would produce little effect on the earth
This would at most influence the apparent position in the sky by less than 1 degree.
4. Hence, very little daylight could have been gained in this method.

Now, this was recorded in the book of Jasher which is not part of any bible (having been lost in antiquity). Are you claiming that the book of Jasher is inerrant? How can we verify the original telling of the story anyway?

AV1611VET · May 26, 2009

[serious];51790223 said:
1. The sun stopped in the sky, not the earth
2. The sun is moving at 1.3 million miles per hour in reference to the CBR
3. The earth is currently ~93 million miles from the sun. An arbitrary stoppage of the sun would produce little effect on the earth
This would at most influence the apparent position in the sky by less than 1 degree.
4. Hence, very little daylight could have been gained in this method.

You're taking the "ecliptic" out of the OP?

Ectezus · May 26, 2009

When you're driving in a car going 80 miles per hour and suddenly stop you're going to fly through the front window. But I'm sure you knew that...

What do you think happened in Joshua 10:13 AV?

If I'm reading it correctly it's about the sun being still for a whole day?
That means not really the sun stood still but the earth stops rotating around the sun for a day or the earth stops rotating itself which also causes a lot of problems.If the earth kept rotating the sun would have to change its position to appear to have the same spot in the earth sky. (Of course this goes against gravity)
Either that or god magically stopped everyone from flying into space. ^_^

- Ectezus

AV1611VET · May 26, 2009

Ectezus said:
When you're driving in a car going 80 miles per hour and suddenly stop you're going to fly through the front window. But I'm sure you knew that...

Yes --- I've heard a rumor to the effect that it's mass times velocity.

Ectezus said:
What do you think happened in Joshua 10:13 AV?

I think God stopped the rotation of the earth, which stopped the sun from moving across its ecliptic path.

It is possible (note: not necessarily probable, but possible) that Joshua had a geocentric view of the universe, and thus his appeal to God to stop the sun and the moon in their respective paths.

God complied, but by using the proper method --- i.e. stopping the earth's rotation.

Ectezus · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
God complied, but by using the proper method --- i.e. stopping the earth's rotation.

And do you belief:
a) Nothing further happened. Rotation stopped and that's it.
or
b) God also counteracted all the (bad) effects that would happen because of stopping the rotation of the Earth.

- Ectezus

AV1611VET · May 26, 2009

Ectezus said:
And do you belief:
a) Nothing further happened. Rotation stopped and that's it.
or
b) God also counteracted all the (bad) effects that would happen from stopping the rotation of the Earth.

- Ectezus

You're joking, right?

B --- for the win.

Momentum = mass x velocity --- God simply told momentum to 'stand down' --- ('take a hike').

[serious] · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
You're joking, right?

B --- for the win.

Momentum = mass x velocity --- God simply told momentum to 'stand down' --- ('take a hike').

Please provide scriptural support for this idea. Also for God stopping the earth instead of the sun.

Ectezus · May 26, 2009

AV, Is there any other reference to the day actually being longer (or the sun/earth actually stop rotating)? Or is Joshua 10:13 the only one?

Couldn't the Joshua passage be interpreted in a figurative way that god simply helped Israel win the battle really fast which made it *seem* the day was lengthened because the enormous task was accomplished in such a short time?

- Ectezus

AV1611VET · May 26, 2009

Ectezus said:
AV, Is there any other reference to the day actually being longer (or the sun/earth actually stop rotating)? Or is Joshua 10:13 the only one?

In Hezekiah's time, God actually reversed the earth's rotation by, if my figures are correct, 40 minutes (10 degrees on a 360-degree sundial) in 2 Kings 20 and Isaiah 38.

Ectezus said:
Couldn't the Joshua passage be interpreted in a figurative way that god simply helped Israel win the battle really fast which made it *seem* the day was lengthened because the enormous task was accomplished in such a short time?

Yes --- but the Bible seems to make a big issue out of this happening --- even going as far as to name a secular source for corroboration - (the book of Jasher).

Ectezus · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
In Hezekiah's time, God actually reversed the earth's rotation by, if my figures are correct, 40 minutes (10 degrees on a 360-degree sundial) in 2 Kings 20 and Isaiah 38.

What does the specific passage in those chapters say? (I seem to be getting around 20 of them each and don't know what sentence you're referring to.)
I don't know about the event but 40 minutes in a time where clocks really aren't all that accurate doesn't seem that impressive to me. Do you know how they measured this?

Yes --- but the Bible seems to make a big issue out of this happening --- even going as far as to name a secular source for corroboration - (the book of Jasher).

Well, god helping Israel to win is still a big deal. Why do you automatically assume it's to be taken literal?

I'm not saying it's not, I just don't understand why you would rather assume it's literal and then defies both logic and god's pre-existing laws and don't opt for the explanation that makes more sense to me, ie: a figurative meaning. The outcome is still the same.

Why would god lengthen the day anyway to help some people kill some others. He could have just crashed a meteorite into the those people to help Israel, or whatever. There are so many possible ways to do it if you're omnipotent, breaking your own 'laws' seem to be a bit weird.
Once again, weirdness does not equal it being impossible, but 1 vague passage that can be interpreted another way also does not equal it being true as well.

- Ectezus

Washington · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
God complied, but by using the proper method --- i.e. stopping the earth's rotation.

So you're saying the Bible is in error. It wasn't a matter of the Sun standing still and the moon stopping as the Bible states,

Joshua 10:13

13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

but the Earth that stopped rotating.

Nice to see you come around.

Hespera · May 26, 2009

Sure would have been easier to just toss down some parachute flares, or make all the enemies get dizzy or something.

i sure dont get it how it is that all cultures have their legends of heroes and miracles and gods, but only the ones from a little tribe in the middle east had TRUE stories.

I also dont understand abandoning one own culture's legends as false, and adopting some other people's stories as if they were his own. I know about cultural imperialism and all, but still, I dont understand accepting it.

Ectezus · May 26, 2009

Washington said:
So you're saying the Bible is in error. It wasn't a matter of the Sun standing still and the moon stopping as the Bible states,

Joshua 10:13

13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

but the Earth that stopped rotating.

Exactly.
The sun and moon would appear to stand still if the earth stopped rotating so in that aspect, from an Earth perspective, the sun and moon did stood still IF you apply the knowledge we have today and realize that it's actually just the earth and therefore the bible is not being litteral. Either that, or the bible is wrong. But we can't have that now can we.

All the more reason to assume the entire passage is figurative and should not be taken literaly.

- Ectezus

AV1611VET · May 26, 2009

Ectezus said:
I don't know about the event but 40 minutes in a time where clocks really aren't all that accurate doesn't seem that impressive to me. Do you know how they measured this?

Every 15 degrees of arc in the sky represents one hour of time.

360 degrees / 24 hours = 15 degrees per hour

Since the sun moved backwards 10 degrees:

2 Kings 20:9-11 said:
9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

Isaiah 38:8 said:
Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

--- 10 degrees/15 degrees = 2/3 --- and 2/3 x 1 hour = 40 minutes.

ETA: Oops --- my calcs are wrong --- I'll readjust.

ETA: Fixed ---

Ectezus · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Every 15 degrees of arc in the sky represents one hour of time.

360 degrees / 24 hours = 15 degrees per hour

Since the sun moved backwards 10 degrees:--- 10 degrees/15 degrees = 2/3 --- and 2/3 x 1 hour = 40 minutes.

ETA: Oops --- my calcs are wrong --- I'll readjust.

ETA: Fixed ---

More accurate would be 180/12 I guess because a sundial can not show the time during the night and appearantly that's the only source used to measure. It also doesn't take into account other factors (like Earth's slightly elliptical orbit) but I can't be bothered to look into what effect that might have.

Personally I don't find something written 2000 years ago and using nothing more than a simple sundial to measure a 'mirracle' a good source but I guess that's where you an I differ. ^_^

If only something similar happened today. We don't even need 40 minutes. Just 1 minute is enough to measure with the advanced tools we have today and it would make a believer out of many but obviously that would be too easy. Why try to convince 4.5 billion non-Christians and save them from eternal hell when you've already got 1.5.

- Ectezus

LifeToTheFullest! · May 26, 2009

AV1611VET said:
Explain how an object moving along --- or stopped in --- its ecliptic path so violates science that a miracle-performing, omnipotent God cannot allow it to happen.

Use Joshua 10:13 as your example.

He could.

AV1611VET · May 26, 2009

Ectezus said:
If only something similar happened today.

And then what about tomorrow? And the next day?

You want Him to keep coming back here, only to be crucified again and again?

In every dispensation God was here, He was asked to leave.

Especially this last one coming up, in which, after ruling and reigning here for one thousand years, He will be attacked by combined forces led by Satan himself.

And we're not gonna rehash this thread again, are we?

My Ecliptic Challenge

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

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