How can anyone support Obama?

OphidiaPhile · Nov 17, 2008

SouthernPlanter said:
Except I can easily reason that Democrats worship their ideology. We'd have to expand the statement that Democrats are mostly liberals; Republicans are full of liberals and conservatives. The defining control is conservatism versus liberalism.

These Democrats do not support God in the schools, they support their liberal social teachings in schools through their Teachers Unions. Unions that have been routinely attacked by conservative politicians for the last 20 years.

Democrats do not argue their agendas, they merely parrot them, 250,000 times on mainstream media until people get in line. Can they reason how the economy is supposed to grow by taxing the people with all the money?

No.

But they just parrot it 250,000 times until people get in line.

The United States was decidedly Christian, prayer was allowed in school, Congress had prayers and went to church collectively; the President urged people to have faith in God.

But Democrats parrot 250,000 times that this is not true, the founding fathers were deists (which is not true) and the founding fathers intended there to never be any mention of religion what so ever in any state or government institution.

Also not true.

But they parrot it 250,000 times on CNN, MSNBC, HN, FOX News and all sorts of News Papers.

And people get in line.

Democrats, are ideologues, no less dangerous than Nazis, or Communists, or any other ideologues whose sole purpose is to attack religion, remove God, and have their voters or their minions worship them only; them, the State.

Nazism is what happens when Republican aka conservatism is taken to the extreme, communism is Democratic aka Liberalism taken to the extreme.

Ryal Kane · Nov 17, 2008

OphidiaPhile said:
Nazism is what happens when Republican aka conservatism is taken to the extreme, communism is Democratic aka Liberalism taken to the extreme.

Yeah. It's the 'extremism' which is the dangerous thing. There needs to be a balance. When things get too far out of kilter,without checks and balances, bad things tend to happen.

Although to be a little clearer, things tend to work on a quadrant system, ranging from left to right economic policies and totalitarian to anarchic systems.
For example, Libertarians tend to be towards the right wing economic, liberal side of things, whereas fascism is the right wing, totalitarian.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

I fall slightly towards centre in the liberal, left quadrant.
Close to Ghandi, so I'm cool with that.

RealDealNeverstop · Nov 17, 2008

Gotta go with Callahan's
Principle yet again. Plus, I never knew one was capable of changing one thread into 14 threads.

WannaWitness · May 22, 2009

I'm not much for mixing Christianity with politics of any kind. But here's what I think: if anything, he can be supported with our prayers... whether we voted for him or not.

I, of course, voted for neither Obama nor McCain. But Obama is now the President, and he will have my prayers. I would have done the same had McCain (or any one of the "third party" candidates) got in. All parties have their agendas that are immoral in one way or another, and there isn't a politician out there who is completely lily-white. That's why we have to pray. They all deserve it.

tulc · May 22, 2009

SouthernPlanter said:
Ok, I just have to ask. Because as I see it as a southron man, electing this particular black man into president (he wasn't some middle of the road black man like Martin Luther King for comparison) already the race issue's going to get worse. The Democrats support amnesty, which is going to further alienate white Westerners and Southerners. We already believe that Democrats are "importing voters" with immigrants and we're disgusted by it. Obama's economics are shot, he has the basic same outline that any Democrat except Bill Clinton had before him; Bill Clinton was reigned in by the most powerful Republican Congress since the 1870s, under leadership of New Gingrich. Obama has suspect agendas, his civil defense agenda, his anti-gun agenda. These aren't made-up, they are real! They are issues northerners don't seem to care about. Same with Obama's wretched Abortion stance, northerners don't care. Just like they don't care if they legalize gay marriage. But we care. Most of the states we needed to put McCain into office lost by less than 100,000 votes, out of millions. So this isn't a "mandate" at all. It was an election stolen within the system, by the most disgusting display of political proselytization ever. People complain about Mormons, well Mormons knock on my door maybe once every year; and my father was a Mormon High Priest, so they come by far more than regularly. I had Democrats knock on my door 10 times in the last few months of the election. 3 times on election day alone. What the hell? How disgusting. I've never had politics forced down my throat like this before; and I don't think people have ever had religion forced down their throats this badly in the United States.

With that said, it's true, without God, and Christianity in the North and liberal strongholds of west-coast and Pacific North West; the State, like in all atheist or irreligious countries (like France for instance), has become the new God.

Obama represents the new Jesus Christ to these Democrats, because they don't worship God. They worship their political ideology.

And I don't think there's a single one of you that at the throne of the LORD, can justify having voted for a demigod instead of the one TRUE GOD.

Not to mention the grave damage you're causing the United States by voting for amnesty, socialism, and taking away people's guns.

That's the opposite of what the Founding Fathers believed.

God Save the South.

Wow. This is an old thread. :sorry:

tulc(voted for Obama because he was the better candidate) :wave:

xMinionX · May 22, 2009

Steve Petersen · May 23, 2009

Politics as a replacement for religion (Political Religion):

Key memetic qualities often (not all are always strongly present) shared by religion (particularly cults) and political religion include

Structural

differentiation between self and other, and demonisation of other (in theistic religion, the differentiation usually depends on adherence to certain dogmas and social behaviours; in political religion, differentiation may be on grounds such as nationality, social attitudes, or membership in "enemy" political parties, instead)

a charismatic figurehead, with messianic tendencies; if figurehead is deceased, powerful successors;

strong, hierarchical organisational structures

a desire to control education, in order to ensure the security of the system

Belief

a coherent belief system for imposing symbolic meaning on the external world, with an emphasis on security through purity;

an intolerance of other ideologies of the same type

a degree of utopianism

the belief that the ideology is in some way natural or obvious, so that (at least for certain groups of people) those who reject it are in some way "blind"

a genuine desire on the part of individuals to convert others to the cause

a willingness to place ends over means - in particular, a willingness to use violence and fraud

fatalism - a belief that the ideology will inevitably triumph in the end

Not all of these aspects are present in any one political religion; this is only a list of some common aspects.

Steve Petersen · May 23, 2009

Politics and religion (or lack thereof) are inseperable. Laws are based on some concept morality and morality is based on a dogma of some kind.

xMinionX · May 23, 2009

Steve Petersen said:
Politics and religion (or lack thereof) are inseperable. Laws are based on some concept morality and morality is based on a dogma of some kind.

Not necessarily. Most basic laws can be justified, regardless of their origins, through secular, non-religious means. Take murder, for example. Society has a vested interest in frowning on murder, for obvious reason. Likewise theft, and rape, and the like. Society does not need a divine text to tell them not to rape and steal and kill. Such acts will become illegal with or without religion, because it is in societies best interests that they become so.

Axioma · May 23, 2009

I'll admit that I haven't read anything in this thread after reading the first page, but did Southern Planter just say that Obama unfairly stole the election by convincing more people to vote for him than the other guy?

fated · May 24, 2009

The election teaches a very important lesson, I think.

The first thing, is that any candidate who is running against a candidate that supports very unpopular policies should keep them upfront the whole time. This was a dem strategy, that I urged McCain to cover, but he didn't.

I would have made sense to constantly remind people that Obama supports international abortion funding, and partial birth abortions, at every possible incidence. Even somewhat pro-choice McCain would gather significant votes with something like that.

And, as to the current situation, I remember writing about GM, and recommending the government do something to protect GM warranties and send GM to bankruptcy, as well as discussion wage concessions. Instead, we seem to have spent $20B to restructure GM and put Uncle Sam at the helm, and have failed to either loan them enough money or provide any fallback insurance for GM warranties. Both of which still need done, and could have been done more efficiently if we didn't twiddle our thumbs while GM flushed billions down the toilet. Anyway, if there were people listening to me then who think I envisioned the current situation, know that I did not.

Nonetheless, he has some acceptable foreign policy, so, in that regard, I do support Obama in his effort to bring hope to the poor and peace to the war torn... how could you not?

tanzanos · May 24, 2009

To all those who are anti Obama and oppose pro choice; let them read the bible very carefully and see how much God cares for the unborn and the infants and children. The hypocrisy is evident:

(from evilbible.com)

Abortion:
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for Gods intervention. Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally abortion?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another mans child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him. In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the their women with child shall be ripped up. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be ripped open. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be dashed upon the rocks.

The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance 0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
2 Kings 6:28-29 And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Judges 19:24-29 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the mans house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaohs actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their rulers forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone bald head is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out Gods commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will thrust you through, smash your children to pieces before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

DaisyDay · May 24, 2009

Steve Petersen said:
Politics and religion (or lack thereof) are inseperable. Laws are based on some concept morality and morality is based on a dogma of some kind.

Do you consider fairness and utilitarianism (such as traffic laws and building codes) a religion? Is "it's bad to harm your fellow human beings" a dogma and therefore a religion? I don't quite get what you mean.

Grizzly · May 24, 2009

Axioma said:
I'll admit that I haven't read anything in this thread after reading the first page, but did Southern Planter just say that Obama unfairly stole the election by convincing more people to vote for him than the other guy?

Obama used his Jedi-mind tricks on the nation. We could not help but vote for him.

fated · May 24, 2009

tanzanos said:
To all those who are anti Obama and oppose pro choice; let them read the bible very carefully and see how much God cares for the unborn and the infants and children. The hypocrisy is evident:

(from evilbible.com)

Abortion:
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?

Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

These are some of the most... memorable passages in the Bible, but they are really irrelevant on the issue you propose them for... might have some effect on the occasional poorly trained Bible only Christian.

Anyway, may I assume from your response that you support partial birth abortion, late term abortion, and wish to have taxpayer funded abortions at home and over seas?

Seriously, the issue I brought up are not red meat to the base issues. We can actually eradicate pro-partial birth/late term abortion and taxpayer abortion funding from all of the government just by reminding people when such persons come up for election.

DaisyDay · May 24, 2009

So-called partial birth abortion is not trivial. It should be up to the doctor and the patient, not people who don't know the medical situation.

DZoolander · May 24, 2009

fated said:
Anyway, may I assume from your response that you support partial birth abortion, late term abortion, and wish to have taxpayer funded abortions at home and over seas?

Seriously, the issue I brought up are not red meat to the base issues. We can actually eradicate pro-partial birth/late term abortion and taxpayer abortion funding from all of the government just by reminding people when such persons come up for election.

I don't think anyone supports abortion the way you contend they do.

Most people I know that are "pro-choice" simply support having the choice available to women. They don't care for, nor do they condone, abortion the way you make it out. I don't know a single pro-choice person that condones so-called "partial birth abortions" for trivial matters, or for anything other than when the life of the mother is at risk. The stand most pro-choicers I know take is akin to "holding their nose while taking out the trash". They don't care for it - but they see when it might be the best of all possible choices.

The problem you pro-lifers run into - is for all of the yelling and screaming you do about "extremism" on the part of pro-choicers - it's actually you that are the extremists. Most pro-choicers would probably be willing to put limits on when abortions are available - and strict rules on anything that fell outside of those accepted boundaries.

But that's not what you want. You're not interested in compromise. Your stand is "no abortion, any time, for any reason". As such - you guys are actually the extremists - and the biggest impedance to actually getting anywhere on the issue.

romanov · May 24, 2009

KatAutumn said:
Why do all of these threads assume all voters are Christian?

Oh, I do not know. Maybe the fact the web site is called Christian Forums instead of Atheist Forums might have something to do with it.

Gracchus · May 24, 2009

Democrats fail morally when they don't live up to their ideals. Republicans fail morally when they do.

romanov · May 24, 2009

Sphere said:
Murder has a legal definition, and the courts have ruled time and time again that abortion is not murder. So, you're wrong there.

That is not true. Murder, rape, theft, all had definitions in language and society before they had legal definitions. And I am sorry you can not rely on 9 people in Black Robes to define what is right and wrong. We have had the Dred Scott decision, [FONT=arial,helvetica]Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company[/FONT] decision, as well as others which are clearly unconstitutional or not based in the philosophical thinking of the founding of this country.

It does not matter how many or how few times the Supremes say something is right. That which is legal does not mean right.

How can anyone support Obama?

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