I'm afraid to ask

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Anhelyna

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Why speculate ?

This is surely a matter for the priests and their Hierarchs ?

Oh - and as a by the way - My SF - UGCC [ remember Catholic ] serves in Lourdes - and he frequently has pilgrimage groups asking if they may have a Celebration of Mass in his Church - said by the priest with them. This is always granted - providing that it does not interfere with 'normal' services for the members of the UGCC - our Pilgrims do have first call :) However if an RC Mass is celebrated there , they do not use the Altar - they use the Tetrapod as an altar [ and yes an Antimension is placed on it for them ] Using the tetrapod ensures that no female [ they often have female servers ] goes behind the Iconostasis .
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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I don't know the circumstances of this particular instance, but as long as the Anglican Vicar did not go behind the iconostas, and had the blessing of the Orthodox Bishop, this is permissable.

Here is an example of this:

St. Philothea Greek Orthodox Church outside of Athens, Georgia is a small parish with 35 families. In an effort to raise money to eventually build a temple, the parish first built a large banquet hall with a chapel attached. In front of the iconostas is a large white curtain that can be drawn so that if a couple of another faith want to have the wedding ceremony in the chapel they can, and then have the reception in the room next door.

This was done specifically so the church could raise extra money renting out the chapel.

The only iconography in the chapel is the Panagia behind the altar, and the icons in the iconostas. (See pictures below.)

DSC00005.jpg


couple%20being%20married%20in%20beautiful%20chapel.jpg


This was all done with the blessing of the Bishop so that eventually the parish would be able to afford a proper Orthodox temple.
 
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E.C.

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Whoa, way cool!

I'm reminded of how during the Soviet Union the Orthodox hid their icons nearby what was dubbed the "red corner" where it was decreed to hang pictures of Lenin and/or whomever the fearless leader was.

When I told my dad this, his reaction was thus:

Secret Police: Hey, why do you have that red candle before Lenin's image?
Crypto-Christian: Why don't you, comrade?

Yes, my family has a very odd sense of humor. ^_^
 
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Michael G

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I agree it doesn't sound kosher, but I don't see how it could rest solely on the relic argument. Not every Orthodox Church is lucky enough to have a relic of their patron Saint. I mean the local WR Church here is Saint Peter's. I'd be extremely shocked if there were a relic from Saint Peter on that alter.

Every church must have a relic in it's altar. Period. That and the antimens are require to even pray a Divine Liturgy.
 
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Xpycoctomos

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Why speculate ?

This is surely a matter for the priests and their Hierarchs ?

Oh - and as a by the way - My SF - UGCC [ remember Catholic ] serves in Lourdes - and he frequently has pilgrimage groups asking if they may have a Celebration of Mass in his Church - said by the priest with them. This is always granted - providing that it does not interfere with 'normal' services for the members of the UGCC - our Pilgrims do have first call :) However if an RC Mass is celebrated there , they do not use the Altar - they use the Tetrapod as an altar [ and yes an Antimension is placed on it for them ] Using the tetrapod ensures that no female [ they often have female servers ] goes behind the Iconostasis .

But since the RC is in communion with the UGCC, why can't they use the altar? Has it already been used for the Eucharist that day? Other than that, I can't imagine why two Churches in communion can't use the same altar. Can you fill me in?

Xpy
 
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Anhelyna

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Xpy

yes it's used every day for DL [ at 8am ] - but the problem is the Altar - many of these RC Groups want their Mass served by their own priest .

That's OK - but the problem is servers - so many of them use female servers - do you seriously think my SF is going to permit a female - be she child or adult - to enter his Altar ??

He's very welcoming to these groups - there are sometimes as many as 5 Pilgrimage Groups a day using his Church for Masses , he has a complete set of RC Vestments for them to use [ many don't bring their own and they cannot use his as they are Eastern ] he always has Hosts availbale for them and also a Chalice and Paten for their use. I can think of one group from Germany who have been going to the UGCC Church there for as long as the Church has been open - that about 25 years !! , they come back each year and bring a glorious decorated Pilgrimage candle that is lit every day for DL - it lasts nearly all year.

BTW - don't forget that I use Altar to name the area behind the Iconostasis and Holy Table for what the RCs term the Altar :)
 
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ThePilgrim

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Whoa, way cool!

I'm reminded of how during the Soviet Union the Orthodox hid their icons nearby what was dubbed the "red corner" where it was decreed to hang pictures of Lenin and/or whomever the fearless leader was.

When I told my dad this, his reaction was thus:

Secret Police: Hey, why do you have that red candle before Lenin's image?
Crypto-Christian: Why don't you, comrade?

Yes, my family has a very odd sense of humor. ^_^
That's an interesting folk derivation! I'd never heard that before...

Unfortunately, it's not actually true. The icon corner being called the "Red Corner" has nothing to do with Communism and predates it.

Where that really comes from is the fact that the word that now exclusively means "red" in Russian (красный) used to mean "beautiful," as well. Overtime, the meaning of "beautiful" was replaced by the meaning of "red," but the word still remained in set phrases where it used to mean beautiful.

Another example of that is "Red Square." It originally meant beautiful, but the Communists happily reinterpreted it as red...

Grace and peace,
Rd. John
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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Every church must have a relic in it's altar. Period. That and the antimens are require to even pray a Divine Liturgy.

This is correct and incorrect. The relic is only put in the altar once the Church is consecrated. Until then, the presence of the antimens alone is sufficient. (I just listened to two lectures on this given independantly by the two priests at my church.)

A Church building is usually consecrated only after the mortgage is paid off and they pretty much know that is going to be their permanent spot. This is because the canons of the church more or less forbid a building from being destroyed once it has been consecrated a church.

So in the example of St. Philothea (see above), they know they are not going to be using that facility permanantly so there are no relics inside the altar. In order to make the Liturgy "valid" they have the antimens which are contained in a cloth and placed on top of the altar.
 
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Xpycoctomos

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That was interesting handmaiden. Thanks

Anheyla, you guys hold to the rule that the actual altar (the table) can't be used more than once from sun up to sun down, correct? So, that would seem the greatest impendiment, regardless of the women helpers. I mean, it would SEEM that if the later were the only reason, the prist just wouldn't use women altar servers that day???

Anyway, interesting.

Xpy
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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A little more on the Antimens...

The Antimens do contain a small amount of relics sewn into them. In addition to this, the antimens have the signature of the Bishop in the corner of of the cloth. The word "antimens" literally means "instead of the table" and is a link for each parish to the Bishop.
 
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cassc

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St. Philothea Greek Orthodox Church outside of Athens, Georgia is a small parish with 35 families. In an effort to raise money to eventually build a temple, the parish first built a large banquet hall with a chapel attached. In front of the iconostas is a large white curtain that can be drawn so that if a couple of another faith want to have the wedding ceremony in the chapel they can, and then have the reception in the room next door.

The only iconography in the chapel is the Panagia behind the altar, and the icons in the iconostas. (See pictures below.)

This was all done with the blessing of the Bishop so that eventually the parish would be able to afford a proper Orthodox temple.

That's really interesting and a very smart way to raise funds. If it was blessed by the Bishop then I'm sure it must be OK, but it seems a little strange to be covering up icons so that others can use the space. I know my priest was upset when a group renting our parish hall took down an icon he had hanging there. On the other hand there is a nursing home about an hour from where I live that has an Orthodox Chapel that resides behind a folding screen in a large room they use for recreation the rest of the time. (Just thinking out loud... :))
 
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HandmaidenOfGod

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That's really interesting and a very smart way to raise funds. If it was blessed by the Bishop then I'm sure it must be OK, but it seems a little strange to be covering up icons so that others can use the space. I know my priest was upset when a group renting our parish hall took down an icon he had hanging there. On the other hand there is a nursing home about an hour from where I live that has an Orthodox Chapel that resides behind a folding screen in a large room they use for recreation the rest of the time. (Just thinking out loud... :))

It's something that is done a lot more than folks in "established" parishes realize. In the military, for example, there is usually a building on base that serves as some sort of "chapel." In order to remain compliant with seperation of church and state, any religious decoration that is used during a service must be removed before the next service.

So, for example, an Orthodox priest would have to set up his altar, icons, etc., and then take them completely down after Liturgy to accomodate anyone who wanted to use the chapel after him.

Theoretically speaking the same building could house Muslim prayers on Friday evening, and Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning.

Also, many missionary parishes use the chapels or facilities of churches of other denominations. It's the same thing, after Liturgy is done, everything comes down, and is stored away until next Sunday.

For those of us who are accustomed to attending Liturgy in an established parish where nothing is moved or altared week to week, this seems strange or foreign.

In reality, it's done all the time. (With the blessing of the Bishop of course.)
 
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cassc

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It's something that is done a lot more than folks in "established" parishes realize. In the military, for example, there is usually a building on base that serves as some sort of "chapel." In order to remain compliant with seperation of church and state, any religious decoration that is used during a service must be removed before the next service.

So, for example, an Orthodox priest would have to set up his altar, icons, etc., and then take them completely down after Liturgy to accomodate anyone who wanted to use the chapel after him.

Theoretically speaking the same building could house Muslim prayers on Friday evening, and Divine Liturgy on Sunday morning.

Also, many missionary parishes use the chapels or facilities of churches of other denominations. It's the same thing, after Liturgy is done, everything comes down, and is stored away until next Sunday.

For those of us who are accustomed to attending Liturgy in an established parish where nothing is moved or altared week to week, this seems strange or foreign.

In reality, it's done all the time. (With the blessing of the Bishop of course.)

Makes sense, when I was in college our OCF used (well it still does) the Catholic Chapel for Vespers. We brought everything with us and took it all when we left. I've just never seen the reverse (i.e. an Orthodox Chapel covering up or removing items for another group) I've met persecuted Christians who have hid their icons behind secular means and in fact I'd be the last person qualified to throw the proverbial "first sone" (college I used to position my icons in such a way that my Jewish roomate didn't have to look at them on a regular basis (she expressed discomfort over the concept of icons). I don't think it's wrong just interesting. It's a lovely little Chaple by the way :)
 
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rusmeister

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That's an interesting folk derivation! I'd never heard that before...

Unfortunately, it's not actually true. The icon corner being called the "Red Corner" has nothing to do with Communism and predates it.

Where that really comes from is the fact that the word that now exclusively means "red" in Russian (красный) used to mean "beautiful," as well. Overtime, the meaning of "beautiful" was replaced by the meaning of "red," but the word still remained in set phrases where it used to mean beautiful.

Another example of that is "Red Square." It originally meant beautiful, but the Communists happily reinterpreted it as red...
(just a slight clarification)
The word "krasny" itself was not changed (reinterpreted) by the Communists - they did use the color as their symbol, but it retains its understanding of 'beautiful' in the Russian consciousness - the little kids all get lectured about that in 1st grade. It is we who see it exclusively as a color reference.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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I was doing some work tonight getting some photos together for a video I want to put together and I checked some stats and discovered that some of our parish photos were viewed from CF. I did a quick search, found this thread and just wanted to say, "Hey, that's my parish!!!"

We do rent out the chapel but at all times keep the area behind the iconostasis kept off limits. As the Handmaid of God correctly noted, the chapel is not permanent nor consecrated so there is no relic in the altar. Happy to answer any questions anyone may have.
 
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ByzantineDixie

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If you went there a year ago there is a good chance you would know me. I have been going there for almost 4 years. Was Chrismated Lazarus Saturday 2006. My real life name is Rose. I do the directory. My husband and sons (both now in their early 20's) are not Orthodox but my youngest used to come with me...tall, lanky, wild blond hair.
 
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rainbowbright

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If you went there a year ago there is a good chance you would know me. I have been going there for almost 4 years. Was Chrismated Lazarus Saturday 2006. My real life name is Rose. I do the directory. My husband and sons (both now in their early 20's) are not Orthodox but my youngest used to come with me...tall, lanky, wild blond hair.

I'm trying real hard to remember-last time I was there (it was Pascha), I was pregnant and I had four small kids with me and one of my twins kept running off in the direction of the choir and I had to chase him I also always covered my head and my husband is very tall. If that helps at all...
 
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ByzantineDixie

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I have a very vague recollection of your family and the little one running up to the choir. I'll ask Presbytera to help me remember a little better. I always sit with Liz...she is my Godmother (works at the Publix there in Watkinsville?). You would know her if you saw her...everyone knows Liz!

Anyway, let me know if you ever come back to visit. Or if anyone else comes to visit. In town for a DAWGS game? Come visit!
 
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