Attack on Sovereignty (imho)

cygnusx1

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God , surrendering His Sovereignty ? only Satan would inspire such a thought.

We serve God the instigator not god the recipricator

the number one scripture merit mongers ; anti-Calvinist's break is ;

Romans 11

[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
 
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mlqurgw

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You are assuming that God doesn't have emotions. Are you saying that God didn't get angry with Israel, when the passage clearly says so? Are you forgetting that God made man in His image? Wouldn't it follow that emotions are part of that image? Didn't even Jesus get angry at the moneychangers in the Temple?

But this is not the only example in scripture where God changed His mind. Nineveh comes to mind.

Your reference in Maclachi 3:6 only states that God never changes, that is His nature never changes, but that doesn't imply that He cannot change His mind and execute justice or mercy. Many of the promises of God were conditional, as in Deut. 28, blessing or curse. And through Isaiah, God told Hezekiah to set his house in order for he was about to die, but Hezekiah pleaded with the Lord and gained another 15 years.



Ezekiel 36 is a prophesy that hasn't fully occurred yet. While Israel became a nation again, the full realization of the passage will occur when Christ comes again. But you must also realize that had they accepted Jesus as the Messiah the first time, they would not have been scattered. Jesus said concerning John the Baptist, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come." Of course this is referring to Malachi where Elijah would prepare the way of the Lord on the Day of Judgment. Again, this is conditional upon Israel's reponse.

But what was Jesus' will for Jerusalem?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" - Matthew 23:37

Oh my! Jesus' will was usurped by Israel's unwillingness. Fancy that.



James also says that we have not because we ask amiss, that we might expend it on our own lusts. But James also says to lay hands on the sick and pray for them and they will recover.

Concerning David, as long as he kept close to the Lord, he was blessed. But he later committed some pretty horrible sins and his kingdom suffered greatly from it. Was that God's will?



So if I pray for salvation, will that change come?
Apparently you interpret Scripture from a Dispensational point of view and I don't. You asked for an answer to the Scriptures you posted and I gave you one. Sorry if my answers didn't satisfy but I never supposed they would. I am not going to debate this or any other issue with you. Those who are satisfied with a pygmy god will stay satisfied until God gets a hold of them. If that ever happens His sovereignty won't be an issue.
 
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Dondi

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Apparently you interpret Scripture from a Dispensational point of view and I don't. You asked for an answer to the Scriptures you posted and I gave you one. Sorry if my answers didn't satisfy but I never supposed they would. I am not going to debate this or any other issue with you. Those who are satisfied with a pygmy god will stay satisfied until God gets a hold of them. If that ever happens His sovereignty won't be an issue.

On the contrary, sovereignty isn't an issue to me. Rather I take great comfort in knowing that God loves everyone and gives everyone a chance to know him, even if He is rejected by some. And that He reacts to our prayers and cries for Him and interacts with us as a good Father does. And He's not afraid to allow us to run in the backyard until it's time to come in. Soveriegnty doesn't mean He has to be so rigid.
 
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McWilliams

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Methinks you would benefit from a higher view of God!
Read either Tozer's The Knowledge of the Holy, The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink or do a real study of the book of Romans and Isaiah to see what God thinks about your thoughts. C.S. Lewis did not have the greatest and best theology and/or high view of a holy, sovereign God! We cannot think of God as a man, an earthly father or such as His ways and thoughts are far above and different from what ours are. Thats why we need to be fully immersed in His word in order to know His ways and plan for us!
 
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Dondi

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Williams said:
We cannot think of God as a man, an earthly father

Well, let's see, Jesus was a man, He was also God. So we cannot think of God as a man. Hmm, that's strange. Do you worship Jesus?

No Father either?

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." - Isaiah 9:6

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." - Matthew 6:9

"For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God." - John 16:27

"For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." - Romans 8:15


One of us is wrong.
 
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oworm

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McWilliams

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Psalm 50:16-21 (New King James Version)


16 But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to declare My statutes,
Or take My covenant in your mouth,
17 Seeing you hate instruction
And cast My words behind you?
18 When you saw a thief, you consented[a] with him,
And have been a partaker with adulterers.
19 You give your mouth to evil,
And your tongue frames deceit.
20 You sit and speak against your brother;
You slander your own mother’s son.
21 These things you have done, and I kept silent;
You thought that I was altogether like you;
But I will rebuke you,
And set them in order before your eyes.
 
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McWilliams

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Psalm 50:16-21 (New King James Version)


16 But to the wicked God says:
“What right have you to declare My statutes,
Or take My covenant in your mouth,
17 Seeing you hate instruction
And cast My words behind you?
18 When you saw a thief, you consented[a] with him,
And have been a partaker with adulterers.
19 You give your mouth to evil,
And your tongue frames deceit.
20 You sit and speak against your brother;
You slander your own mother’s son.
21 These things you have done, and I kept silent;
You thought that I was altogether like you;
But I will rebuke you,
And set them in order before your eyes.
 
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ReformedChapin

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It's this kind of flippant retort raised on your haughty loft of scholarly indignation that makes it difficult to have a sensible debate. You, in essence, have theologically flipped me off, and I find that rather in bad taste.
Please refrain from debating and read our SoF, only Semper members may debate in this area until it's moved.


I also don't see great scholarship in your part either.
 
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Dondi

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Please refrain from debating and read our SoF, only Semper members may debate in this area until it's moved.


I also don't see great scholarship in your part either.

Don't bother moving it, I'm done.

I already said I wasn't going to debate. My last post was more of a response to something I thought was uncalled for. As unscholarly my replies might have seemed to you, I didn't use scripture to personally attack someone.
 
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McWilliams

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Oh mercy dear brother, you clearly misperceived my intent of posting that verse!

I was showing where God accused us of seeing Him as we do humans! I meant to show that we are so inclined at times to judge God and define Him as we do humans and He is so very far and above such definitions and descriptions, thinking and doing far beyond any boundaries that we might consider. Even in reading scripture we tend to decide what we think of as 'fair' but this has little to do with what is actually rendered in the Word!
You thought that I was altogether like you;
This part was my intent of focus!
Please forgive any thoughts you have that I was considering you 'wicked'. Not true!!
Blessings on your growth in Him!
 
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Dondi

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Oh mercy dear brother, you clearly misperceived my intent of posting that verse!

I was showing where God accused us of seeing Him as we do humans! I meant to show that we are so inclined at times to judge God and define Him as we do humans and He is so very far and above such definitions and descriptions, thinking and doing far beyond any boundaries that we might consider. Even in reading scripture we tend to decide what we think of as 'fair' but this has little to do with what is actually rendered in the Word!

This part was my intent of focus!
Please forgive any thoughts you have that I was considering you 'wicked'. Not true!!
Blessings on your growth in Him!

OK, all is forgiven.

But might I take this opportunity to point out to you that God was addressing the wicked in this passage, and as such, taken in context, God is basically telling them (ie. the wicked) that they will receive no instruction because of their evil ways. These are people who profess to have taken His covenants, but continually do evil (thieves, adulterers, evil speakers, deceivers, slanderers). In other words, these are hypocrites (the same kind that Jesus says will say, "Lord, Lord" but do not do what He says.)

On the other hand, the righteous can know God. Jesus says in John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." In the Psalm you quoted, back up some verses (before God addresses the wicked) and you will see this: "And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me." Here, God is addressing and giving promise to those who do give God thanksgiving and pay their vows, in other words, who do right before Him. It's a different people than the wicked.

Ephesians 1:17-18 tells us, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints," There is no more mystery with God for the child of God, because of Christ.

Later on in that same epistle, Paul prays, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."

We know God by inquiry and prayer (as Paul's prayer above). We know God by His will, as written in the Scriptures. We've received the revelation to know who God is. It is no longer a mystery as it was in the psalmist's day.

"For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ." - I Coirinthians 2:16

Is it arrogant, then, for me to know the mind of the Lord? To know what He is about? To question what He is doing? Not that I need to know every answer, of course, for sometimes we need to take Him on faith. But especially, if I'm trying to find out what kind of God I am worshipping. I want to know what kind of God He is.
 
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McWilliams

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Good thoughts and not arrogant at all! We are urged in Phillippians 2:5-11 to:


5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

That said, however there are still believers who do not have a truly high view of God and speak of Him in a common and/or familiar manner, indicating lack of proper reverence due Him. We're all on a different page, different stages of growth and sanctification and are to ever be pressing onward and upward, learning and growing in Him, never satisfied with any 'status quo' but having that great desire to know Him better each day! We, as believers are to encourage and edify each other in this pursuit! Many today do not place the proper importance on knowing His word and it is by this that we come to know Him and His plan for us!
Blessings,
 
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