Attack on Sovereignty (imho)

Arete said:

I found this quote on an Arminian board and thought it might spark some good conversation - perhaps around how to address such a belief

Click to expand...

attack on God's sovereignty said:

As far as Sovereignty is defined, God is a Sovereign God who has, in my view, surrendered His Sovereignty to allow us the power of making choices. It is the formation of why Jesus instructs us to pray that God's Will be done. Evidently, if we do not, He cannot. God has limited Himself in amazingly grace-filled ways.

Click to expand...

Howdy Arete ,

.... all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?” Daniel 4:35

typical arminian pressuposition....God's soverignty stops at humanities free will

Doesn't surprise me. I'm on some other forums and one has a faith and belief section where you see the craziest ideas imaginable. People can't and won't accept the fact that God IS sovereign, choses who He will save and isn't accountable for anyone.

green wolverine said:

People can't and won't accept the fact that God IS sovereign, choses who He will save and isn't accountable for anyone.

Click to expand...

.... & .....

Arete said:

I found this quote on an Arminian board and thought it might spark some good conversation - perhaps around how to address such a belief

Click to expand...

That is the old " God is sovereign over everything but me" idea. In reality it is nothing short of denying the God of Scripture and replacing Him with a figment of their imagination. I think it was Pink who said that they go into the forest of their imaginations and carve out a god that suits them. Those who believe that simply hate the God of Scripture and His truth. They can't tell you ow far God's sovereignty extends because they believe He doesn't actually control anything but reacts to men and turns what they do bad into something good. That isn't sovereignty it is just a being a little more powerful than they are but just like them in every other way.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

If there is one single atom on this planet that God is not in charge of, then He is not sovereign!
He is the Alpha and Omega and controls all things, all events in human history and even the minutiae of each life!

McWilliams said:

If there is one single atom on this planet that God is not in charge of, then He is not sovereign!
He is the Alpha and Omega and controls all things, all events in human history and even the minutiae of each life!

Click to expand...

Amen

I can't help but wonder if some folks don't have this image of God sitting in heaven, wringing His hands in an "Oh woe is me" manner because we humans keep overruling His wishes
When we deny His sovereignty, that's pretty much what we're saying

McWilliams said:

If there is one single atom on this planet that God is not in charge of, then He is not sovereign!
He is the Alpha and Omega and controls all things, all events in human history and even the minutiae of each life!

Click to expand...

Hammster said:

I don't think that I have actually seen someone admit that they think God surrenders His sovereignty. As soon as God surrenders His sovereignty, wouldn't He cease to be God?

Click to expand...

He would cease to be THE GOD and would become a god. Folks would much rather have a god then THE GOD. They can control a god.

'We can never exaggerate the importance of God's sovereignty, for God is the greatest of all realities, indeed, the very ground of reality, and sovereignty is the most important thing that can be said about him. The other attributes of God are also important. But if in our minds we ignore, distort, or deny God's sovereignty, meaning the absolute determination and rule by Bod of all His works and creatures, God will no longer be God for us.'
From: Whatever Happened to the Gospel of Grace? James Montgomery Boice

What do you all make of this?

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." - Philippians 2:5-8


"But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." - Matthew 20:26-28


If Jesus is God, then God came as a servant to man, to minister to man. In several cases, Jesus relented when asked to do something. The miracle at Cana, for example, when His mother wanted Him to change the water into wine. The Canaanite woman who wanted her daughter healed, but was told by Jesus that He came but for the house of Israel, yet relented after she persisted.

"And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" - Luke 18:1-8


In this parable, we have the same kind of persistence. The judge did not want to comply with her request. It was not his will, yet he eventually relented. Then there is a parallel in regards to God's eventual vengance because of the cries of His people.


"And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." - Genesis 32:24-30


Jacob didn't let the man go until he was blessed. And Jacobs says he had seen the face of God. Did he wrestle with God? And did God bless him because of Jacob's insistence?

"And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:9-14

Again, another example of how God repented of His intentions.

So the question remains, how would things have been different if the people in each of these cases didn't act on their persistence to change God's mind? Was it God's Sovereignty to change his mind on the whim of these people?

Isn't this what prayer does, to intercede with God that God would move His hand in a particular situation? And this would imply that lack of prayer would stay God's hand? Why pray at all if this is not the case?

I think this is the OP's contention.

Dondi said:

What do you all make of this?

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." - Philippians 2:5-8


"But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." - Matthew 20:26-28


If Jesus is God, then God came as a servant to man, to minister to man. In several cases, Jesus relented when asked to do something. The miracle at Cana, for example, when His mother wanted Him to change the water into wine. The Canaanite woman who wanted her daughter healed, but was told by Jesus that He came but for the house of Israel, yet relented after she persisted.

"And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" - Luke 18:1-8


In this parable, we have the same kind of persistence. The judge did not want to comply with her request. It was not his will, yet he eventually relented. Then there is a parallel in regards to God's eventual vengance because of the cries of His people.


"And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." - Genesis 32:24-30


Jacob didn't let the man go until he was blessed. And Jacobs says he had seen the face of God. Did he wrestle with God? And did God bless him because of Jacob's insistence?

"And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:9-14

Again, another example of how God repented of His intentions.

So the question remains, how would things have been different if the people in each of these cases didn't act on their persistence to change God's mind? Was it God's Sovereignty to change his mind on the whim of these people?

Isn't this what prayer does, to intercede with God that God would move His hand in a particular situation? And this would imply that lack of prayer would stay God's hand? Why pray at all if this is not the case?

I think this is the OP's contention.

Click to expand...

So your contention is that we inform God and get Him to do something He didn't intend to do already? Nonsense! Prayer isn't for God it is for us. We are changed by prayer not God. Do you hold to open theism?

mlqurgw said:

So your contention is that we inform God and get Him to do something He didn't intend to do already? Nonsense! Prayer isn't for God it is for us. We are changed by prayer not God. Do you hold to open theism?

Click to expand...

I'm simply pointing out that there is some latitude in the Soveriegnty of God.

What is intercession to you?

How do you account for the above scripture passages?

I am somewhat unfamilar with the term 'open theism'. If by 'open theism' you mean this (from Wiki):

Open Theism said:

Practically, open theism makes the case for a personal God who is open to influence through the prayers, decisions, and actions of people. Although many specific outcomes of the future are unknowable, God's foreknowledge of the future includes that which is determined as time progresses often in light of free decisions that have been made and what has been sociologically determined. So God knows everything that has been determined as well as what has not yet been determined but remains open. As such, he is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to His plan or presuppositions.

Click to expand...

Then yes, I guess I do,but I'd have to study the concept further, so don't label me yet. Perhaps I'm thinking more in terms with relational theology, but I need further study on that also.

Dondi said:

What do you all make of this?

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." - Philippians 2:5-8


"But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." - Matthew 20:26-28


If Jesus is God, then God came as a servant to man, to minister to man. In several cases, Jesus relented when asked to do something. The miracle at Cana, for example, when His mother wanted Him to change the water into wine. The Canaanite woman who wanted her daughter healed, but was told by Jesus that He came but for the house of Israel, yet relented after she persisted.

Click to expand...

The Lord Jesus was the servant of the Father, Isa. 42:1, in His manhood and came to do the Father's will. John 6:38,39 In serving the Father and doing His will He ministered to men. Phil. 2:5-11

"And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;

Click to expand...

Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" - Luke 18:1-8


In this parable, we have the same kind of persistence. The judge did not want to comply with her request. It was not his will, yet he eventually relented. Then there is a parallel in regards to God's eventual vengance because of the cries of His people.

Click to expand...

The parable's intent is to show that God hears the cries of His people and will avenge them. It tells us to not give up asking even though we do not immediately see a result. It doesn't teach that God changes His mind but that we are to keep asking. The Master isn't likening God to an unjust judge but the exact opposite. If an unjust judge will avenge those who are importunate shall not God who is just? It says nothing at all about God changing His mind.

"And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

Click to expand...

And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." - Genesis 32:24-30


Jacob didn't let the man go until he was blessed. And Jacobs says he had seen the face of God. Did he wrestle with God? And did God bless him because of Jacob's insistence?

Click to expand...

Jacob wrestled with a preincarnate Christ. The wrestling, contrary to common thought, wasn't a type of prayer but of submission. Jacob wouldn't give up until Christ touched the hollow of his thigh and made him realize who he was fighting against. Not until Christ made him impotent against Him did He bless him. Jacob carried that impotence the rest of his life. It is a picture of being born again not of getting God to do something by prayer.

"And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Click to expand...

Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." - Exodus 32:9-14

Again, another example of how God repented of His intentions.

Click to expand...

This is what is called an anthropomorphism, putting human characteristics on God in order to better relate to us the idea. God had intended always to bless Israel, not necessarily the physical nation but the spiritual Israel the true elect of God. The passage must be interpreted in light of the whole of Scripture rather than as a snippet. The passage isn't intended to show that God changed His mind but that God is merciful to His elect and does not give them what they deserve. There are far too many passages that contradict an interpretation of this passage in any way to say God changed His mind. Mal. 3:6 comes to mind.

So the question remains, how would things have been different if the people in each of these cases didn't act on their persistence to change God's mind? Was it God's Sovereignty to change his mind on the whim of these people?

Click to expand...

I would point you to Ezek. 36:21-37. God has in this passage promised to do several things for His people. He says I will and you shall all through it. No mights or maybes there. It is as sure as He is faithful. Still in the later part of verse 36 and the first part of verse 37 God says, "I have spoken it and I will do it. I will yet be inquired of by the house of Israel to do it for them." James says we have not because we ask not. Prayer doesn't move God to do something He didn't already intend to do. It is a moving of the heart of the believer to rely on the promises of God. In 2Sam. 7 God made a promise to David, the promise of Christ, and it moved David to pray. See verse 27 of 2Sam. 7

Isn't this what prayer does, to intercede with God that God would move His hand in a particular situation? And this would imply that lack of prayer would stay God's hand? Why pray at all if this is not the case?

I think this is the OP's contention.

Click to expand...

Prayer doesn't change God it changes us. God expects us to seek Him in prayer and seek the good of others because it moves our hearts toward Him and toward others instead of ourselves. We don't twist God's arm or influence Him to do anything by what we do. All that God has for the believer, all that God does for the believer, and all that God gives the believer is for Christ's sake and for the glory of His name.

Dondi said:

I'm simply pointing out that there is some latitude in the Soveriegnty of God.

What is intercession to you?

How do you account for the above scripture passages?

I am somewhat unfamilar with the term 'open theism'. If by 'open theism' you mean this (from Wiki):



Then yes, I guess I do,but I'd have to study the concept further, so don't label me yet. Perhaps I'm thinking more in terms with relational theology, but I need further study on that also.

Click to expand...

OK I won't label you. Yet.

mlqurgw said:

This is what is called an anthropomorphism, putting human characteristics on God in order to better relate to us the idea. God had intended always to bless Israel, not necessarily the physical nation but the spiritual Israel the true elect of God. The passage must be interpreted in light of the whole of Scripture rather than as a snippet. The passage isn't intended to show that God changed His mind but that God is merciful to His elect and does not give them what they deserve. There are far too many passages that contradict an interpretation of this passage in any way to say God changed His mind. Mal. 3:6 comes to mind.

Click to expand...

You are assuming that God doesn't have emotions. Are you saying that God didn't get angry with Israel, when the passage clearly says so? Are you forgetting that God made man in His image? Wouldn't it follow that emotions are part of that image? Didn't even Jesus get angry at the moneychangers in the Temple?

But this is not the only example in scripture where God changed His mind. Nineveh comes to mind.

Your reference in Maclachi 3:6 only states that God never changes, that is His nature never changes, but that doesn't imply that He cannot change His mind and execute justice or mercy. Many of the promises of God were conditional, as in Deut. 28, blessing or curse. And through Isaiah, God told Hezekiah to set his house in order for he was about to die, but Hezekiah pleaded with the Lord and gained another 15 years.

I would point you to Ezek. 36:21-37. God has in this passage promised to do several things for His people. He says I will and you shall all through it. No mights or maybes there. It is as sure as He is faithful. Still in the later part of verse 36 and the first part of verse 37 God says, "I have spoken it and I will do it. I will yet be inquired of by the house of Israel to do it for them."

Click to expand...

Ezekiel 36 is a prophesy that hasn't fully occurred yet. While Israel became a nation again, the full realization of the passage will occur when Christ comes again. But you must also realize that had they accepted Jesus as the Messiah the first time, they would not have been scattered. Jesus said concerning John the Baptist, "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come." Of course this is referring to Malachi where Elijah would prepare the way of the Lord on the Day of Judgment. Again, this is conditional upon Israel's reponse.

But what was Jesus' will for Jerusalem?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" - Matthew 23:37

Oh my! Jesus' will was usurped by Israel's unwillingness. Fancy that.

James says we have not because we ask not. Prayer doesn't move God to do something He didn't already intend to do. It is a moving of the heart of the believer to rely on the promises of God. In 2Sam. 7 God made a promise to David, the promise of Christ, and it moved David to pray. See verse 27 of 2Sam. 7

Click to expand...

James also says that we have not because we ask amiss, that we might expend it on our own lusts. But James also says to lay hands on the sick and pray for them and they will recover.

Concerning David, as long as he kept close to the Lord, he was blessed. But he later committed some pretty horrible sins and his kingdom suffered greatly from it. Was that God's will?

Prayer doesn't change God it changes us. God expects us to seek Him in prayer and seek the good of others because it moves our hearts toward Him and toward others instead of ourselves. We don't twist God's arm or influence Him to do anything by what we do. All that God has for the believer, all that God does for the believer, and all that God gives the believer is for Christ's sake and for the glory of His name.

Click to expand...

So if I pray for salvation, will that change come?