The Fundamentalist Christian Agenda

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Mercy Medical

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Honestly, it's no different then anything else. People on the religious right continue to claim the "gay agenda" is pushing their beliefs onto them. They're causing them to have to accept that behavior. Well, can't that statement be the same for the Christian right? It seems as though to me a good portion of the religious right is pushing for religion based legislation and laws. They claim that abortion should be illegal because it goes against God. Gay marriage should be illegal because it goes against God's word and so on and so forth.

So what exactly makes the Christian agenda better/worse then any other agenda? Or what gives that agenda the right to have precedence over anyone else's? Why aren't non believers allowed to speak out against the push of Christianity onto them?

The right wing complains about these things, but they're hypocrites because they want their beliefs pushed onto other people...
 

LittleNipper

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Honestly, it's no different then anything else. People on the religious right continue to claim the "gay agenda" is pushing their beliefs onto them. They're causing them to have to accept that behavior. Well, can't that statement be the same for the Christian right? It seems as though to me a good portion of the religious right is pushing for religion based legislation and laws. They claim that abortion should be illegal because it goes against God. Gay marriage should be illegal because it goes against God's word and so on and so forth.

So what exactly makes the Christian agenda better/worse then any other agenda? Or what gives that agenda the right to have precedence over anyone else's? Why aren't non believers allowed to speak out against the push of Christianity onto them?

The right wing complains about these things, but they're hypocrites because they want their beliefs pushed onto other people...

All anyone need do is to allow the open mature discussion of anything anywhere (the primary concern being in places of "public" education), and then "religious" people would not feel slighted. If one can discuss evolution, one should be able to discuss creationism. If one can discuss gay pride, one should be able to discuss prolife issues and the concerns regarding fornication and the spiritual/physical implications/ramifications.
Then there would be no controlled agenda ----- just logic, reason, and open investigation. People cannot make clear and meaningful choices applying one set of opinions and bias hearsay without considering open and above board display of cause and affect.
 
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Mercy Medical

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All anyone need do is to allow the open mature discussion of anything anywhere (the primary concern being in places of "public" education), and the then religious people would not feel slighted. If one can discuss evolution, one should be able to discuss creationism. If one can discuss gay pride, one should be able to discuss prolife issues and the concerns regarding fornication and the spiritual/physical implications.

Then there would be no agenda but logic, reason, and open investigation.
And I agree whole heartedly with that, but I'm not talking about discussion...I'm talking about the enforcement of that agenda on one another through laws and legislation.
 
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daniel777

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Honestly, it's no different then anything else. People on the religious right continue to claim the "gay agenda" is pushing their beliefs onto them. They're causing them to have to accept that behavior. Well, can't that statement be the same for the Christian right? It seems as though to me a good portion of the religious right is pushing for religion based legislation and laws. They claim that abortion should be illegal because it goes against God. Gay marriage should be illegal because it goes against God's word and so on and so forth.

So what exactly makes the Christian agenda better/worse then any other agenda? Or what gives that agenda the right to have precedence over anyone else's? Why aren't non believers allowed to speak out against the push of Christianity onto them?

The right wing complains about these things, but they're hypocrites because they want their beliefs pushed onto other people...

as for the gay marriage thing, i agree with you.

as for the abortion thing, if christianity is honestly the only pro-life force out there, then it deserves the right to push that agenda on everyone.
 
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Mercy Medical

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as for the gay marriage thing, i agree with you.

as for the abortion thing, if christianity is honestly the only pro-life force out there, then it deserves the right to push that agenda on everyone.
I agree, you are right. There are people who do not agree with it who have no religious affiliation.

I was just pulling a few examples. It just seems as though the Christian groups tend to be a bit more vocal then others, or at least that I have observed.
 
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Joachim

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My personal position on social issues: It is the job for the state governments to decide because we are simply not unified enough in mind as a country for a federal decision to be appropriate.


As for the gay marriage thing, it's not just "Christian fundamentalists" that are pushing this, it is actually the majority of the population that is currently against it (while being for civil unions so I'm still not getting why the gays find it an unacceptable compromise)


If opposition to gay marriage is just a "Christian fundamentalist" thing then how come 90% Catholic Vermillion Parish voted for it by a margin of 85-15%


Now yes, Christian fundamentalists do try and legislate their beliefs into society. From anti-smoking laws, to restrictions on gambling to super high alcohol taxes. However, gay marriage is not an issue that is driven by "Christian fundamentalism"
 
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green wolverine

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And I agree whole heartedly with that, but I'm not talking about discussion...I'm talking about the enforcement of that agenda on one another through laws and legislation.

I don't think you have to worry. The 'Christian Right' has failed miserably in getting ANYTHING enacted. Just look at abortion--where is there the slightest chance it will be outlawed??? Same thing with gay rights. Every time I turn around, another state is legalizing gay marriage.
 
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LittleNipper

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And I agree whole heartedly with that, but I'm not talking about discussion...I'm talking about the enforcement of that agenda on one another through laws and legislation.

All we need do is follow the Consititution as it was introduced by Thomas Jefferson without slavery (it was you may know). The Carolinas would not sign the document unless the anti slavery "agenda" was dropped.

Try watching the movie1776. It is entertaining and rather subtly poignant...
 
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Joachim

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I don't think you have to worry. The 'Christian Right' has failed miserably in getting ANYTHING enacted. Just look at abortion--where is there the slightest chance it will be outlawed??? Same thing with gay rights. Every time I turn around, another state is legalizing gay marriage.


If Roe v. Wade was repealed today a number of states have statutes that allow for the immediate outlawal of abortion. Barring that, the Louisiana legislature would have it illegal within a month, that's a guarantee.


As for the gay marriage argument. Here is a list of states that have legalized or are legalizing it: New York, Connecticut, Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa. The only one of those states that represents anything near the center of American politics is Iowa, and it must always be remembered that this itself is specious because Iowa was one of the Dukakis states, so an argument could be made that they have this amazing ability to be out of touch as well


You will impress me on gay marriage when the legislature of the Great Mormon Republic of Utah passes it.
 
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sidhe

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As for the gay marriage thing, it's not just "Christian fundamentalists" that are pushing this, it is actually the majority of the population that is currently against it (while being for civil unions so I'm still not getting why the gays find it an unacceptable compromise)

Same reason that African-Americans found the compromise of being able to eat food from the same restaurant as white Americans - as long as they didn't eat in the restaurant, or that women found the compromise of being allowed to enter the work force - as long as they were secretaries or nurses or another position subordinate to men, an unacceptable compromise.

Also, creating a second institution that does exactly the same thing as an extant one over a matter of semantics is so redundant as to make William of Ockham cry in his grave. Either everything to do with the government is a civil union and marriage becomes a purely religious ritual, or everything is a marriage. "Marriage" already exists as a legal institution - Ockham's Razor says the most direct solution is to end gender discrimination in who can sign a marriage contract. Creating secondary institutions is overcomplicating the situation.
 
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BobW188

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Tom would be flattered; but the Virginians most responsible for giving us the Constitution were James Madison and George Washington.

The problem with this "pushing your agenda on me" or "forcing your values on me" line of argument is that anyone can use it about anything. If my side wins the election or the court decision, I'm forcing my values on you. If you win, you're forcing yours on me. In this sense, the Constitution itself, which both sides on all issues love to cite, was "forced" on a substantial minority during the ratifications of 1788 - 1789.
 
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Mercy Medical

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My personal position on social issues: It is the job for the state governments to decide because we are simply not unified enough in mind as a country for a federal decision to be appropriate.


As for the gay marriage thing, it's not just "Christian fundamentalists" that are pushing this, it is actually the majority of the population that is currently against it (while being for civil unions so I'm still not getting why the gays find it an unacceptable compromise)


If opposition to gay marriage is just a "Christian fundamentalist" thing then how come 90% Catholic Vermillion Parish voted for it by a margin of 85-15%


Now yes, Christian fundamentalists do try and legislate their beliefs into society. From anti-smoking laws, to restrictions on gambling to super high alcohol taxes. However, gay marriage is not an issue that is driven by "Christian fundamentalism"
Equal rights issues should not be different state to state. What would happen if PA (the state I live in now) legally recognized same sex marriages so my girlfriend and I got married here. That completely limits my ability to move anywhere else in this country if I want to remain married to my wife. What if something happens when we travel out of state and one of us is severely injured and ends up in the hospital? Our rights as a spouse go POOF.

Just because the majority of the population is against it, does not mean it should remain that way. The majority of the population should not determine one's civil rights. The majority of the population also agreed with slavery at one point in time and also agreed that women shouldn't vote.

And civil unions are not enough because they create a separate, but equal state. If the state governments issued civil unions for all hetero and homo couples wanting to be bound by that legal contract, then I would be okay with it. If religious groups want ownership of the word marriage, I say let them have it, but then marriages as recognized by the state regardless of they are opposite or same sex should be known as civil unions. Even if civil unions were legal country wide, the religious right would still campaign against that because they believe it would lead to gay marriage, which is exactly what is happening in Washington state right now.
 
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MaxP

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Just because the majority of the population is against it, does not mean it should remain that way. The majority of the population should not determine one's civil rights. The majority of the population also agreed with slavery at one point in time and also agreed that women shouldn't vote.
Which were both huge controversies where advocates worked to change not only the laws, but the minds of the people. It seems to me the gay rights movement focuses too much on changing the laws and too little on changing minds.
 
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Zebra1552

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Honestly, it's no different then anything else. People on the religious right continue to claim the "gay agenda" is pushing their beliefs onto them. They're causing them to have to accept that behavior. Well, can't that statement be the same for the Christian right? It seems as though to me a good portion of the religious right is pushing for religion based legislation and laws. They claim that abortion should be illegal because it goes against God. Gay marriage should be illegal because it goes against God's word and so on and so forth.
Abortion should be illegal because it ends human life- there are laws that make it a double homicide if one kills a pregnant woman and the baby dies. It is inconsistent to not make abortion illegal too, not to mention that the basis for abortion being legal was a judiciary decision and not a legislative one- the Supreme Court overstepped its bounds. Not just because it 'goes against God'. And the research for the effects of homosexual parents have on kids is incomplete- more research should be done before a decision is made.




The right wing complains about these things, but they're hypocrites because they want their beliefs pushed onto other people...
Good thing I'm a moderate, then. Why did you create this thread? Just to rip on right-wing folk?
 
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Mercy Medical

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Which were both huge controversies where advocates worked to change not only the laws, but the minds of the people. It seems to me the gay rights movement focuses too much on changing the laws and too little on changing minds.
It's hard to change anyone's mind when it's such a complex issue. You can have a hetero and homo person stand next to each other and be able to point out the differences between the two. People don't understand it. People still claim that it is a choice. They can't grasp the concept of what it feels like until they've been in that situation.

It's also relatively difficult to change people's minds on the issue when they are using the Bible as their speaking point against it. Trust me, I have tried to change people's minds on the issue.

And I think by changing laws the gay rights movement IS trying to change minds they are showing that is no different then being in a hetero relationship and that it should be recognized equally.
 
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Mercy Medical

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Abortion should be illegal because it ends human life- there are laws that make it a double homicide if one kills a pregnant woman and the baby dies. It is inconsistent to not make abortion illegal too, not to mention that the basis for abortion being legal was a judiciary decision and not a legislative one- the Supreme Court overstepped its bounds. Not just because it 'goes against God'. And the research for the effects of homosexual parents have on kids is incomplete- more research should be done before a decision is made.





Good thing I'm a moderate, then. Why did you create this thread? Just to rip on right-wing folk?
No. I did it to discuss the whole concepts of "agendas." There are already threads in this forum regarding the gay agenda and how it's forcing Christians to accept it. It's no different and it's hypocritical to anyone to claim that some agenda is forcing their beliefs on them when they do the exact same thing.

Obviously I used some mass generalizations in my OP and I apologize for that.
 
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Zebra1552

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No. I did it to discuss the whole concepts of "agendas." There are already threads in this forum regarding the gay agenda and how it's forcing Christians to accept it. It's no different and it's hypocritical to anyone to claim that some agenda is forcing their beliefs on them when they do the exact same thing.

Obviously I used some mass generalizations in my OP and I apologize for that.
The problem with your thesis is that many Christians who condemn homosexual practices do not in fact force their beliefs and don't care about gay marriage one way or the other. So in many cases they are not being hypocritical. If you're going to apologize for making hasty/sweeping generalizations, stop making them. Gays want to make marriage legal? Go for it. But spreading ideas about how it's perfectly acceptable at adolescence is NOT cool, nor is it factual. It goes beyond an agenda- it's promoting lies. Homosexuality is something many kids deal with for a brief period. Telling them 'it's perfectly fine to be gay' at such ages doesn't help their brief period stay a brief period. Christians should not have to live in a bubble to avoid this problem.
 
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Mercy Medical

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The problem with your thesis is that many Christians who condemn homosexual practices do not in fact force their beliefs and don't care about gay marriage one way or the other. So in many cases they are not being hypocritical. If you're going to apologize for making hasty/sweeping generalizations, stop making them. Gays want to make marriage legal? Go for it. But spreading ideas about how it's perfectly acceptable at adolescence is NOT cool, nor is it factual. It goes beyond an agenda- it's promoting lies. Homosexuality is something many kids deal with for a brief period. Telling them 'it's perfectly fine to be gay' at such ages doesn't help their brief period stay a brief period. Christians should not have to live in a bubble to avoid this problem.
Well I obviously can't go back and remove the generalization, so why are even making these statements? I would understand if I had made them a second time, but I didn't.

And it is perfectly acceptable to inform adolescents that homosexuality is okay. How is it promoting lies? If it is in fact something a child deals with for a brief period of time, they will deal with it for a brief period of time and move on when they are an adult. If you believe it is a stage for some, it will most likely be just that...a stage...and as they grow older they'll find their true self.

I don't understand how teaching kids to be tolerant of others is a bad thing.
 
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LittleNipper

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Same reason that African-Americans found the compromise of being able to eat food from the same restaurant as white Americans - as long as they didn't eat in the restaurant, or that women found the compromise of being allowed to enter the work force - as long as they were secretaries or nurses or another position subordinate to men, an unacceptable compromise.

Also, creating a second institution that does exactly the same thing as an extant one over a matter of semantics is so redundant as to make William of Ockham cry in his grave. Either everything to do with the government is a civil union and marriage becomes a purely religious ritual, or everything is a marriage. "Marriage" already exists as a legal institution - Ockham's Razor says the most direct solution is to end gender discrimination in who can sign a marriage contract. Creating secondary institutions is overcomplicating the situation.

Traditional Marriage, is of a benefit to the nation at large and not simply to a select few seeking tax loopholes. If approached/engaged with sobriety, it produces healthy families and a new generation of good citizens.

Homosexual "marriage" would only serve to further erode the institution by reducing it to a free for all and an anything goes affair.
 
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