A Heresy for your Consideration...

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daydreamergurl15

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Matthew 28 (New King James Version)


1 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”
8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.


9 And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me.”


11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all the things that had happened. 12 When they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 saying, “Tell them, ‘His disciples came at night and stole Him away while we slept.’ 14 And if this comes to the governor’s ears, we will appease him and make you secure.” 15 So they took the money and did as they were instructed; and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.


16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.


His Sacrifice, this WORK alone, is the ONLY reason WHY anyone whom come to Him are even promised heaven. We did NOTHING, we can do NOTHING to deserve it.
 
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Vigilante

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Well, it seems that I must justify this idea that some non-believers get to enter Heaven, mainly for the benefit of HuntingMan and Nadiine.

The thing that strikes me, as I look around the world, that virtue is not the sole preserve of Christians. And vice is not the sole preserve of unbelievers. (And this is a fact that miltates against ebia's notion of transformation, by the way). So the thing is, would a just God ignore the vice of Christians, and the virtue of ubelievers, as He arrives at His determination for our various destinations in the hereafter? I cannot believe that He would, and I do not wish to be a part of a religion that preaches that He would. Justice is Justice.

To compound the issue, our beliefs are not voluntary. We can only believe what we think to be true, and the culture we are born into seems to be the determing factor, and not our conscious volition. The billion or so Moslems who pass their religion onto their offspring transmit more than just dry philosophy, but a vibrant, encompassing tradition and way of life. For them, to abandon their beliefs means abandoning much of their identity, and, not surprisingly, most of them choose to be who they are, rather than leap into the (comparitively) unknown that, to them, constitutes Christianity. Would a just God punish them for being born to a Moslem father and mother, in a Moslem community, in a Moslem state? I cannot believe that He would, and I do not wish to be a part of a religion that preaches that He would. Justice is Justice.

So, Nadiine, there you have it. You and I believe different things. My opinion may be opinion, but it is backed by at least the rudiments of reasoning. Furthermore, I am far from isolated in my 'opinion'. For example, it is the position of the Catholic Church that Heaven is not denied to some unbelievers. Do you really think the likes of the Buddha, or, more recently, Mahatma Gandhi, inhabit Hell? The distinction that Catholics like to make (and one I question) is that unbelievers may be saved in a religion, but are not saved by that religion.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

First, to most of everyone else: 2ndRateMind has posed a philosophical problem. Biblical-textual answers tantamount to "Thus, X or Y" won't do because Biblical-textual validity (in part or in whole) is one of the very points of contention. Stop barking up the wrong tree and engage the problem on its own turf.

Second, to 2ndRateMind:

Believe it or not, I don't think you've gone far enough. You claim that beliefs (or the attendant convictions thereof) aren't voluntary, and posit that justice is administered not on a scale of what people largely can't help but to believe or not believe, but rather by the criteria of:

our 'way of being'...motivat[ion] by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us...
But this is to take a Zippo lighter to a glacier. Not only do we have extraordinarily little freedom to "decide" what propositions we feel convinced of, but those things that we do in fact feel convinced of will influence our behavior, and not always toward the mimicry (intentional or otherwise) of Jesus' love.

Take, for example, a young Viking circa what-have-you A.D. By your above criteria, you would not have held it against him that he felt no conviction of Christ's salvific power (naturally, having never been acquainted with Christ to begin with), but is it a fair replacement to denounce his failure to exemplify the kind of behavior that a relationship with Christ might cultivate?

I'm not very familiar with Norse mythology, but let's make up some things about Odin. Let's say that Odin claims that all men must take the lives of those who take the lives of their family members. If you kill my father, it is my duty to kill you or die trying. Further, the ideal father "owns" his wife and children in the (grossly) fundamentalist sense. Lastly, men have "steam" they need to blow off, and regular patronage to the village prostitutes is an expected custom of all men, married or otherwise.

Now as a young Viking, Gorm, having grown up in this culture, naturally feels convinced of the rightness of all of it. Gorm more or less has to because he has no access to individual education. The tales of his forefathers are his education, and he has no real hope of avoiding this indoctrination. You will not fault him for these things that he believes. But I contend that the extent to which you grant him leniency for his convictions must be matched by a similar leniency for any of his behavior that is based on those same convictions--lest the mouse be condemned for chasing the cheese it was trained to eat.

As an example, if Gorm feels convinced that he will be "tormented forever in the afterlife" if he doesn't kill the man who killed his father, then Gorm will cultivate his hatred for his father's killer as if it were a virtue (indeed, for him this would seem perfectly rational). Is Gorm motivated by the call of Jesus? No. He is motivated by the call of Odin. But is it justice to sentence an earnest man to eternal torment for doing everything in his power to try to find salvation from this very fate? No, it is not, and no one with half a brain and two scoops of dogma would say otherwise.

This is where post-Justinian Christian Orthodoxy has its floor fall out from underneath it. St. Clement of Alexandria and St. Gregory of Nyssa had it right when they said St. Paul had it right:

"Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. For just as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." - Romans 5:18-19 (NRSV)

Yes, that is a Biblical-textual answer to a philosophical problem, but here is your philosophical answer: the only way out of this hornet's nest is if (1) God sincerely wills or desires the redemption of every single person (2) God gets (eventually) what he sincerely wills or desires.

I wrote a modest essay on Christian universalism a couple of months back. You can download it (pdf) here if you like:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/mky2zjzmj4j/The Sound of Triumph.pdf

You'll also find these helpful:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
 
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Nadiine

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:thumbsup:

How is God unjust? He is the devine creator and you are assuming he's unjust because He chooses who enters His Kingdom though not one person not one sinful, evil, dirty person deserves to be there. The only reason anybody gets to go to heaven is because of their faith in Jesus who is God in the flesh. Not just some guy. Jesus=God=King of Kings.

Why does an atheist deserve Heaven when even as Christians WE don't deserve Heaven? He's not unjust. It'd be fair to say He could very well have wiped the human race clean off the planet because of our ancestors Adam and Eve who stole from him then tried to place blame on each other, lie about it and blame Him. He could have wiped us out but instead He humbled himself. left His throne and entrusted Himself to a 13 year old girl and then to a group of men 1 which betrayed him. Then He died a most embarrassing death on a cross next to two criminals all for US and you have the nerve the very nerve to assume Buddah and the likes deserve Heaven because by your faulty human standards he was righteous or good? You don' g et it do you?
Works are good for nothing. Charity is good for nothing. All of it is pointless if you don't have salvation which only comes from Jesus who IS God. Jesus isn't the spotlight guy who fills in for God. He is God.
He did not HAVE to do it, he did it because He wanted to and He loves us.


Brother, God owes us nothing, nada zilch. He paid our debt not the other way around. If you know a charitable atheist you'd like to see in Heaven then you need to preach the gospel and lead him to Christ. Otherwise he can give his left arm to the armless, his money to the poor and all of his canned goods to a local church and hes still filthy in the eyes of the Lord.
What do atheists want with a Heaven they don't believe in anyhow?

Consider this:
Every human being sins. Only Jesus was sinless and perfect.
No one deserves God's glory.
No one even deserves a single thing from God.
If all it took was "behaving yourself" and "doing good things" Do you think Jesus would have even had a purpose to come to Earth to begin with? He would not have come here and died on a cross at all had good works been enough.

Coming to such conclusions like:
"Anyone can go to Heaven if they are good"
is like saying Jesus' life, teachings and ultimately his sacrificial death served no purpose.
(the quotes have a glitch...)
SO Nice to see a passionate, accurate post that describes our true
condition before an Almighty, Holy God.

Sadly, alot of our world has decided that people are worthy of God's gift
of eternal Life becuz they're just so special and their wickedness shouldn't keep them out of God's heavenly domain.

What we have today are people with entitlement issues - God OWES
man everything and He had better pay up.
Sin is completely ignored and refused to be seen for what it is and esp. how God
Himself views sin. (this is due to being corrupted, where justification and
excuses are made for it as if it's not a problem).

When man downplays his own depravity and elevates himself, it gives
birth to entitlement demands placed on God as if God is somehow evil if He doesn't obey us to give us what we want.

People who deny God and live a life separated from Him (and in defiance to
Him) are automatically entitled to eternal life despite what scripture spells out with repeated warning and instruction on how to escape this fate.

Clearly man is deciding he's Righteous when he is not. He decides what
is good and moral, He decides what God needs to do, not God.

Well, they'll get a rude awakening one day when they find out
God is GOD and doesn't obey a fallen, corrupted creation that glorifies evil, and
decides who enters His righteous dominion.

Universalism negates the gospel.
 
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Nadiine

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That depends on what you think the gospel is.
Well sure - but false notions never change truth of reality.

People who believe God doesn't exist aren't right just becuz they believe
that way. It doesn't make it true for them.

Jesus' claim "you must be born again" is the gospel message & command
we're all under. To claim that everyone goes there no matter how
they lived and rejected God, negates the command to be born again.
*(before physical death).
 
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Nadiine

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Isn't upon your last hour you have time to turn to Christ....who are we to judge now...you never know when a person's heart is going to turn.
that's beside the point tho, the point is what MUST be done which is
what we're contending. In opposition to the claim that "our virtue"
saves us.
& since noone knows they have in their "last hour" unless they
actually acknowledge it to anyone, we can safely say that unless
they had a last minute conversion w/ repentance, they WERE destined for condemnation.

We only judge based on their living message -
that IF they remained in that condition, that would be the outcome.
*I'd also add that we cannot make any emphatic evaluations for
everyone! It's also not our job to do so - if people ask specifics,
then we can give an opinion.
We can only make such an evaluation for those who openly live against
or counter what God commands for salvation...
 
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ebia

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Well sure - but false notions never change truth of reality.

People who believe God doesn't exist aren't right just becuz they believe
that way. It doesn't make it true for them.

Jesus' claim "you must be born again" is the gospel message & command
we're all under.
Um, no it isn't. It's true, but it isn't the gospel - the gospel is, by definition, news of something that has happened.
 
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Nadiine

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Um, no it isn't. It's true, but it isn't the gospel - the gospel is, by definition, news of something that has happened.
The gospel is about useless without the command that tells you
what to DO with or about that "good news".
But I should have noted the message isn't "the command" alone;
that is PART of the message.

If the "good news" of His action on the cross were all there were
to salvation, then we'd be saved without any repentance or
recieving of that gift/action.

But He adds a command onto that message - that you have it
only IF you recieve it by faith in Him (including repentance);
making Him personal Lord of your life.

The gospel is a message, and carries a command with it which is
why I noted both specifically.
Without the command, the message doesn't change anything for us.
 
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ebia

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The gospel is about useless without the command that tells you what to DO with or about that "good news".
Perhaps.

I just get picky when people use the word gospel slopply.
 
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Nadiine

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Perhaps.

I just get picky when people use the word gospel slopply.
I do too lol
which technically I did in one spot, so I made the
correction.
Now I think we both might be satisfied with it? :p :)
 
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CruciFixed

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Entitlement issues! Thats the correct wording I was looking for when I posted. I couldn't figure out what to say so I just said "God owes us nothing." And took out my version of the phrase which was "People tend to have the I'm owed gimme gimme attitude"

I'll tell the truth here when I was a liberal atheist I thought the same way a lot of liberals tend to:
Everyone deserves heaven if they are "well behaved" or else God was evil and unjust. But what did I want with Heaven if Heaven wasn't real?

Until I was saved I couldn't really work my mind around the concept that Jesus was not just a human being or God's coffee boy so to speak. That's how I think some liberals especially atheists view Jesus. They think he's God's chore boy who came down to Earth to do something humans were already entitled to from the fall. The reality of it is Jesus in fact IS God and he never had to do anything. We do not and never have deserved His glory.

I can tell you knew that already I am just going on a tangent.

Its mind boggling, really. I mean the whole thing is something I can barely grasp.
A: How can God love us so much when we have done nothing?
B: How can he accept an excruciating death after being humiliated......for US. We're just disgusting and he humbled himself......its so....WOW thats love. There are not enough words to describe the love it takes to put yourself out there for people who don't even love you back a fraction of that. Humans don't love God even a FRACTION as much as He loves us. I don't think so anyway. I could be wrong. Most of us I am including myself here don't even love our family members as God loves human kind. WHY? Why does he love us so much? I feel happy he loves us but sad that the world hates our creator and king and sad that I cant go a day without sinning.
C: How can anyone not see that act of love for what it is, what it means? Why do people (not all people mind you...most Christians I know understand what Jesus did for them) feel the need to downplay his sacrifice? If they are non-believers why do they expect a gift from a God they don't love or even believe exists? If they don't want Him in their lives now why should He want them in His kingdom?

I don't get it......
 
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Dondi

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2ndRateMind said:
A Heresy for your Consideration...
It is my belief that some Christians get to Heaven, and some don't. It is further my belief that some non-believers get to Heaven, and some don't.

Clearly, then, from this point of view, being a Christian is not the defining factor as regards the deployment of God's judgement. Our beliefs may not be totally irrelevant, but they are not decisive.

In my opinion, it is our 'way of being' that decides. Christian or pagan, if we are motivated by the love of Jesus, (not for us, but within us; for God, and for each other) whether we acknowledge Jesus as divine or not, we accept him as 'the way, the truth and the life'.

If this is true, then Christian evangelism as presently conceived is a misguided conceit, and the right-leaning fundamentalist tendency of the Christian faith is quite as much in error as orthodox Jews, or militant Islam.

Any comments?

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

chingchang said:
Cool thread. I've given this a lot of thought lately...and I'm still unsure. Your idea puts much more meaning to Jesus' statement "I am the way...". Transformation is the key IMHO. I believe that the Most High God is interested in having a certain type of being in his eternal kingdom. That type of being can only come about by transformation (growth). I think he uses this age to bring about that trasnformation in people and it is those people that he wants to keep for his kingdom. Think about the parable regarding the wheat and tares/chaff. God wants to harvest the good for himself and discard the bad. I can't imagine he'd discard of an individual who followed in the way of Jesus...but didn't have their trinity theology "right".

We'll find out one day!

Free Hugs,
CC

jparks said:
I'm afraid I don't see how someone could be moviated by the love of Jesus without accepting Him as 'the way, the truth and the life.'

I've been pondering the phrase 'the way, the truth, and the life'. Is it possible that one could come to 'know' Christ without knowing Him? If the OP is correct, then there are those who are what C.S. Lewis refers to a 'anonymous Christians'. And perhaps we are looking at that exclusive verse in John 14:6 a bit too stringently. Might I suggest that consider the following possibility:

The Way - is the manner Jesus exemplified His life as He walked this earth. How He treated and loved others, showing compassion and grace and forgiveness to those He met, as an example in how we need to govern our lives.

The Truth - are Jesus's words: His teachings, His allegories on the Kingdom of God, His sermons, His parables, His proclamations about God the Father and how we ought to approach Him.

The Life - is His sacrifice on the Cross for the sins of the world, which He took up again three days later.

Being as it may, when Jesus said that no man comes to the Father but by Me, He was using these three aspects in context with entering into a relationship with God the Father. Suppose then, someone who has never heard of Christ, yet has exemplified 'the way' as defined above. Suppose that person believes in God but his understanding about the salvitic process is flawed. Yet he believes that somehow he is accountable to this God that he doesn't really know, much less His Son. Do you think this person might be saved, simply because He has demonstrated his love for God and his fellow man? In other word, Jesus's 'Way'?

Luke 10:25-28 said:
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Will you look at that? I didn't hear Jesus say to believe in Him in this passage. But by virtue of upholding the two commandments of love, of which Jesus said in Matthew 22:40 stand all the law and the prophets, it would appear that a person can come to the Father by having the compassion Christ had.

Neither did Jesus ask anyone in Matthew 25:31-46 to believe in Him either, but what did He say in verse 34 & 40:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The only difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did and didn't do.

I'm suggesting that 'the way' is an aspect of salvation, particularly for those who have never heard. Just as 'the truth' and 'the life' are aspects of salvation through the same Person of Jesus Christ. Those of us who have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, through the redemptive work of the Cross have taken 'the life' aspect of salvation as described above. We have the full truth of the Gospel, whereas, the truth concerning the sacrifice of Christ hasn't been revealed to those who have never heard.

I offer further consideration in Acts 17:24-28, where Paul address the Greeks on Mars Hill:

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

From this we can conclude that God places a person where he/she is, at an apponted place and time, not that they should not find God, but that they can. God placed the Muslims in Arabia, He placed the Hindus in India, He placed the Buddhists in China, and He placed the pagan Greeks in Athens. Yet Paul say that God can be found, because He is not far from any of us.

So why limit the idea of salvation to absolute knowledge of Christ, when He can be found anyway?

This is not to say that the Cross of Christ has no effect. But is one is truly seeking God out of a sincere heart, the Bible promises that He will be found: "But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul." - Deut. 4:29

Perhaps there are more conversions that we realize. Perhaps when one seeks God, the Blood of Christ is applied to his/her life despite a lack of knowledge of Christ. Not that this exempts us from proclaiming the Gospel, but I see much grace and mercy in this view.
 
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Nadiine

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Will you look at that? I didn't hear Jesus say to believe in Him in this passage. But by virtue of upholding the two commandments of love, of which Jesus said in Matthew 22:40 stand all the law and the prophets, it would appear that a person can come to the Father by having the compassion Christ had.
??
You take 1 verse (outside it's important context) to nullify
other verses that DEMAND belief (faith) in Jesus Christ?

This is serious manipulation to scripture.

The same bible teaches this:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God
must believe that He is,
and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

works without FAITH do not please God and do not give glory to
God; and works without faith do not save a soul.

One must have BOTH for salvation - works FOLLOW genuine salvation
naturally once Christ & His Spirit are within us prompting those
works in service.

Ephesians 2:7-9

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Even the evil know how to do good and show love - =)
Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
 
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Dondi

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Nadine said:
Nadine said:
You take 1 verse (outside it's important context) to nullify
other verses that DEMAND belief (faith) in Jesus Christ?

How does this nullify faith in Jesus Christ? What is the 'new commandment' we are told to follow? "That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12). So when we give drink to the thirsty, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and in prison, are we not loving them as Christ has loved us? Are we not loving Jesus by doing so? "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Do we not obey God because we believe in God?

If someone believes in God, though ignorant of Christ, wouldn't God's grace be upon them if they are doing the things God asked them to do? Aren't those people diligently seeking Him? Will not God give them reward?

By the way, if you looked at my post, I used more than 1 verse. I could quote you more, if you'd like.

Nadine said:
Even the evil know how to do good and show love - =)
Nadine said:
Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!


Everyone has a measure of faith.


 
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