Suffering is good for you. Well, IS it?

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salamacum

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(Didn't want to start a new thread but I couldn't find an existing related topic.)

Is suffering good for you?
Is this what "All things work togther for good" means for Christians.

What's been your experience? Has it been good for you emotionally, physically, as well as spiritually?

Anybody damaged spiritually by suffering?

And what kind of suffering is good for you?

I'd love some testimonies, rather than bible quotes. But if we are going to use the bible, how do we understand the book of Job? I find the story of Job more and more the main pattern for our own Christian walk with God.

This could be posted on another thread to explain why I am almost officially "post-Charismatic".
 

ChristianCritic

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(Didn't want to start a new thread but I couldn't find an existing related topic.)

Is suffering good for you?
Is this what "All things work togther for good" means for Christians.

What's been your experience? Has it been good for you emotionally, physically, as well as spiritually?

Anybody damaged spiritually by suffering?

And what kind of suffering is good for you?

I'd love some testimonies, rather than bible quotes. But if we are going to use the bible, how do we understand the book of Job? I find the story of Job more and more the main pattern for our own Christian walk with God.

This could be posted on another thread to explain why I am almost officially "post-Charismatic".

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30).

All things does include suffering, but the good that is being talked about here is not necessarily immediate but rather ultimate, not necessarily individual but rather corporate, and not necessarily secular but rather spiritual.
 
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dies-l

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I truly hate pain, but my experience has been that my biggest spiritual gains have been the result of suffering. A couple examples come immediately to mind:

My ex-wife left me very shortly after I sobered up (about 11 months into my sobriety) and became a Christian (about 2 months into my Christian walk). Up to this point, I had assumed that it would be impossible for a drunk like me to stay sober and deal with a problem like that. However, what I found was that God gave me the strength to face divorce as a sober man. Furthermore, the lonliness and heartbreak that came from that situation forced me to turn to God and to other people with a greater passion than I ever had before. My relationship with God grew, and I my desire for community grew, and I learned through the God's comforting and through the kind acts of others what it is to be truly loved.

Another example is when my father died. My wife (I am happily remarried) and I had planned to go on a mission trip together, and we were ready to leave when we got the call. So, not only did we have the emotional devastation of losing my dad, we also had to skip the trip. The whole situation was tough on me. My dad had died fairly young (64), and it made me think a lot about my own mortality. I questioned God, as I felt that this was the "reward" He had given me for our faithfulness in choosing to be a part of this mission trip. The situation created a huge emotional and spiritual mess for me. Several months went by, and I was still deeply depressed. Ultimately, I ended up in counseling, which helped me to identify some destructive thought patterns that had severly impacted my life and made it difficult for me to be happy. I am learning to think differently and to actively question and challenge these thought patterns when they arise. Also, out of this experience, I have become more conscious of my health. I have changed my diet and I run almost everyday (about 18 miles per week). I have lost about 20 pounds, and I am more fit. And, I believe that it was the pain I felt at the loss of my father that was the motivator for this.
 
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salamacum

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I know that I had my wilderness experience almost immediately after my conversion.
Some really bad things needed to be addressed. I needed to be convinced of the uniqueness of Christ. And God had (?) to use the material that was around me. So He used persecution. He put my personality with very worldly people and hammered me through them. It was a miserable time.
In a way I'm glad it happened, but I'm not pleased God did it that way. Couldn't He take me aside and explain the issue? I would have changed my attitudes.
This is why I think our suffering is like Job's. There's no explanation, no word from God, no comfort while it's happening. Sometimes it just seems heaped on top of itself and everyone's advice seems like coming from Job's comforters.
I especially resented the apparently strong faith of other Christian students, benefitting from strong families and Christian traditions.
It's this thing about why doesn't God just tell us what He wants to change in us? Are we just too stupid and too self-deluded? Don't we have the will-power to crucify the flesh if that's what God wants?
A number of people have shared how God brought them to the edge of their tether so that whatever they did, things went pearshaped.
And yet I know a pastor who said he'd never suffered. Maybe he was just more sanctified right from the start.
But I know it made it difficult for him to empathise with those suffering. He just wanted to 'give them space'
Then I know a guy who occasionally attends church. He's very intense spiritually. (or maybe it's just with his bible). But he's had breakdowns and his kind of Christianity just makes it worse. He's very knowledgable about the bible but is that really his suffering sanctifying him? He's very intolerant and bigotted really. He keeps going on about his suffering refining him. But I don't see much of it, really. Far better would be for him to get an ordinary job and mix with ordinary worldlings. IMHO.
 
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JimLandress

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lol I think there is a lot of suffering to get through the bs and to get to god, but the light itself isnt the suffering but the release of that wich we suffered to reach that point. So for some more suffering is required because that is the path they choose. In an alternative concept if you know were you are going, taking the long way home builds character.
 
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salamacum

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Suffering is definitely a many-sided thing. It has unforseen effects. Some Christians can seem rather glib and insincere about welcoming the benefits of suffering. I learnt some time ago that the biblical injunction about praise was to praise in the midst of suffering NOT because of the suffering. That seems to be saying that we should not seek it or even welcome it.
Going back to unforseen effects. Well, any psychiatrist could have forecast those. People said that Richard Wurmbrand was a spiritual giant after his years of mistreatment in Romania. Indeed he did say that his times in prison were like being at the top of a spiritual mountain.
But when he came out, it was clear that he had received damage emotionally. And theologically he wrote a very unsound book called "Sermons in Solitary Confinement". That wouldn't bother me, unsound is probably OK by me. He'd had enough of a share of the reality of sin, suffering and God to satisfy my desire for reality.
And most people I know who have had suffering, even obviously for God, are not whole people, enjoying the Hebrew "Shalom". The millenium awaits for their true healing.
 
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Albion

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salamacum

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< < Anybody damaged spiritually by suffering?
I know of people for whom the answer would be "yes." >>

I just want to seek some nuances to what often seems an unthinking theology about suffering.
Some countries certainly were damaged by the persecution of God's people. I think about France and Spain which lost gifted entrepreneurial protestants and got revolution and poverty it seems as a result.
Some Christians in prison lost their minds and faith.
It has been a source of my own serious rethinking of my theology when I look at how many people I've come across in pentecostal circles who quite clearly haven't been healed. In fact their theology has been distorted to cope with their damage.
 
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Winter

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Suffering has made me into a better person, I think. My trials and difficulties has made me:

More compassionate.
Less judgemental.
More understanding.
More giving.
Helped me to grow up.
Made me a stronger person.
Gave me different priorities.
Made me see life in a whole different light.
Made me more appreciative.

I think God does put circumstances in our life - because difficulties can make us into better people. I think life is all about growing into better human beings. Life is work.

If we had not experienced hunger, how could we understand poverty? If we never experienced the loss of a loved one, how could we ever have increased empathy? If we didn't suffer and life was all peachy keen ... how would we ever understand the sufferings of others?

Life is work. We all have our crosses to carry. But once we carry them, we become stronger. And with strength, we can give so much back. All that is good can manifest ... if we let it.

Some folks allow their sufferings to pin them down and sadly, rather than seeing them as blessings which will improve their characters, they choose to remain in their pain and not see the lessons within.

But the notion of suffering is a big deal in Catholicism (there is grace in suffering) - so I'm speaking partly from experience and partly from theology.

Here is a wonderful excerpt from St. John of Avila which elaborates how we can look at suffering:

Praise to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercy and God of all consolation who consoles us in all our trials and enables us to console others who are being tried, for we urge them on as God urges us on. As we share generously in the sufferings of Christ, so do we share generously in his consolation.


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]The words are those of Saint Paul the Apostle. He was beaten with rods three times, flogged five times, stoned once and left for dead; he suffered every persecution men can inflict, his body was twisted by pain and toil. And all this was his lot not just on one or two occasions, for he writes: We are constantly being handed over to death for Jesus&#8217; sake, so that his life may be revealed in us.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]In all these tribulations he does not murmur or complain about God, as weaker men do. He is not saddened as those who love status and pleasure are. He does not beg God to be relieved of them, as men do who are unaware of their true value and therefore will have no part of them. He does not make light of them, as men do who set little value upon them. On the contrary, fully aware of the value of these tribulations and rising above his own weakness, Paul blesses God amid his sufferings and thanks him as though he had bestowed a fine reward. He thinks it an honour to be able to suffer for him who subjected himself to so very much shame in order to free us from the dreadful effects of sin; who exalted us by giving us his Spirit and making us adopted sons of God; and who gave us, in his own person and through his own efforts, a proof and pledge of heavenly joy.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Dear brothers and sisters, I pray God may open your eyes and let you see what hidden treasures he bestows on us in the trials from which the world thinks only to flee. Shame turns into honour when we seek God&#8217;s glory. Present affliction becomes the source of heavenly glory. To those who suffer wounds in fighting his battles God opens his arms in loving, tender friendship, which is more delightful by far than anything our earthly efforts might produce. If we have any sense, we shall yearn for these open arms of God. Can anyone but a man in whom all desire is dead fail to desire him who is wholly lovable, wholly desirable?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]If you long for these festivals of heavenly joy, if you want to behold them and take part in them, be assured that there is no better way to reach them than the way of suffering. This is the way Christ and his disciples have always travelled. He calls it a narrow way, but it leads straight to life. That is why he tells us that if we want to join him, we shall travel the way he took. It is surely not right that the Son of God should go his way on the path of shame while the sons of men walk the way of worldly honour: The disciple is not above his teacher, nor the servant greater than his master.[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]God grant that our hearts may find no rest and seek no other food in this world, save in hardship and suffering beside the Lord&#8217;s cross.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]&#8212;Saint John of Avila, priest[/FONT]​


[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]Office of Readings, May 18:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]John I, Pope and Martyr[/FONT]​





[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Serif]
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[/FONT]​
 
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e. barrett

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I truly hate pain, but my experience has been that my biggest spiritual gains have been the result of suffering.

That's what I've seen too. I tend to be stubborn and prideful and it often takes suffering to "wake me up" and actually learn what God wants to teach me. I don't believe God causes most of my suffering - I think I do well enough on my own with that. But I do believe, if I allow God to work, he can redeem anything. No matter how bad it hurts. But I have to let him do it first.
 
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HanlonsRazor

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Anyone here read Brave New World?

Its about a world were people are ruined by the things they love, that their desire to escape pain has forced them into a state of half-living.

Here's my favorite quote:

"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery. And, of course, stability isn&#8217;t nearly so spectacular as instability. And being contented has none of the glamour of a good fight against misfortune, none of the picturesqueness of a struggle with temptation, or a fatal overthrow by passion or doubt. Happiness is never grand.&#8221;

I think we need passion and suffering in order to truly enjoy life. I think deep down, inner peace would bore us. I say embrace this grand world we live in, for however short we have it, and struggle to make something out of it. Don't be like the lazy author and take recourse to the deus ex machina, that all will turn out okay, that as long as you pray it will all go away. Don't try to dull the insane, infuriating, exquisite pain and passion that rule our lives. Face the world as an individual, enjoy the glamor of a good fight against misfortune, and take pride in however far you succeed in your own life's mission, whatever that may be.

That's me. Just reminding you all to take the question outside a christian context as well, there's a lot of good literature other than the bible on the subject. Also I read the OP didn't want bible quotes, so, I hope I could help.
 
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salamacum

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Which sort of suffering does God use in the Bible for his purposes?

The suffering for His sake (resisting temptation and going with the crowd, even persecuation)

Or the suffering which everyone has to bear (illness, frailty, disappointment, loneliness, death)?

Because it does seem to me that some people are NOT made better Christians by their redundancies, their cancer and their tumours and their altzeimers.

Similarly I know a Christian woman who is persecuted at work (because of her faith)
If I knew her at work and I wasn't a Christian, I'd persecute her.
Her rejection is caused by the fact that she is just 'intense', 'wierd' and 'religious', but that in itself is caused by her evangelical history and past breakdowns.
 
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SistrNChrist

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I can't speak for everyone else on this forum, but I know that when I have gone through situations when something devastating has happened in my life (my sister being hospitalized because someone spiked her drink, my uncle being diagnosed with cancer and being told he only has 5 months to live), it has had the effect of drawing me closer to God, instead of pulling me further away. In other words, God uses my suffering to draw me closer to Him
 
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bluemarkus

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i do believe suffering is sometimes a purification tool to get us to become more spiritual people. the heart of fools is in the house of feasting, the heart of the wise is in the house of mourning.

but at other times, negative suffering (suffering of the world) doesnt lead to godliness, but leads to a downward spiral.
 
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salamacum

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I think we need to accept nuances on this.
But has anybody thought that suffering which is not in the context of the support of God's people (His Body) can often lead to bitterness? If suffering was just good for us full-stop then why does God lay such great store on practical love and empathy?

And I have seen different forms of bitterness. People who have just stopped making an effort to fellowship with others, because the latter are identified in some way with rejection and suffering.

Christian young women unable to compete in the beauty stakes and with a smaller pool of males available becoming bitter and competitive in their 30s.
 
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JCFantasy23

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(Didn't want to start a new thread but I couldn't find an existing related topic.)

Is suffering good for you?
Is this what "All things work togther for good" means for Christians.

What's been your experience? Has it been good for you emotionally, physically, as well as spiritually?

Anybody damaged spiritually by suffering?

And what kind of suffering is good for you?

I'd love some testimonies, rather than bible quotes. But if we are going to use the bible, how do we understand the book of Job? I find the story of Job more and more the main pattern for our own Christian walk with God.

This could be posted on another thread to explain why I am almost officially "post-Charismatic".

It depends how you handle it I guess. Some suffering seems to rob people of something but as long as you do not harden your heart and learn from mistakes, I think suffering can be a good thing. It can make one stronger, realize the errors they make, teach lessons, and make dramatic changes in their lives. There are times when it's just to be endured though and it's hard to see the benefit from it, like if your child dies from leukemia or something along those lines.
 
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