the remnant: who are they, and are they saved by works or grace?

Jim1 said:

stranger (quoting Paul):

... 1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ... destruction ain’t the end of salvation you see ...

Paul

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. ... 3 for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men? ... 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation ... 13 ... the day shall declare it ... and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire. ... 22 all [things] are yours; 23 and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one [of you] hath his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. ... 5 ... deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ... 9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all [meaning] with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. ... 13 ... Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.

(ASV) 2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed.

Jim:

I don’t know what your point is. All Paul is talking about is shunning believers who are engaging in blatant sin in order to protect the body of believers from the sin and in order to shame the rebellious believer to repentance. In the end, he may suffer loss and have no reward, but at least his spirit will be saved, yet so as by fire.

However, anyone who dies as an unbeliever cannot be saved after he dies. He will not participate in the first resurrection, but he will participate in the second resurrection, and he will be judged according to his works, and he will be cast into the lake of fire.

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Paul contradicts your modern religious dogma , and says that these sinners [1 Corinthians 5:5] will indeed be destroyed in death, but "saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ..."

So you disagree with Paul then

As proof from scripture of the commonplace mistake in modern religion, consider that only FEW avoid the broad way through destruction of the flesh in death [Matt 7:14]...

BUT countless many of all nations are saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10]

Thus what you claim is denied by Matthew and Jesus too , why cling to it when you know modern religion is already deeply divided , not one truth of God, and it is prophesied that it MUST fall away [2Thess, Rev 13:3-10]

Why believe religion in place of the scriptures of the saints and Jesus then

Why refuse reproof to the scriptures when that is what they are for ?

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Now many people in this life die without even knowing Jesus, there sadly are stillbirths, those who die at birth, those who die infants.... you want to believe against some scriptures that these are flung into the lake of fire without any chance to live righteously and be saved ... in what way were they more sinners than most people you know ?

Now consider then that Jesus says they can be saved [Rev 7:9-10] , so instead of denying him by claiming he is wrong, consider why he is right ... there is a way of course, but one has to choose between accepting scripture as a whole of accepting religion that we know must be apostate and is divided , it is simply a question of deciding to believe Jesus and the saints or modern religion that they said must fall away and clearly has [else it would not be divided and teaching things out of line with scripture as a whole]

So we know how the few are saved by grace of their new covenant, and they are priests and kings in the kingdom after Jesus return and the wrath of God that kills all sinners and destroys the earth and heavens ... so who do the priests and kings serve and rule over in the kingdom in the new earth?

Clearly they cannot minister to anyone but those resurrected at the second resurrection , there is no-one else to serve ... what does Peter say about this new earth kingdom :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So the works the many do before they are judged by works, are righteous , and God's judgment is that those who turn to righteousness will be saved, no matter that they were sinners before

Ezek 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Now Paul tells us that those who die are paid the wages of their sin by death, that death frees a man from past sin [Rom 6:7]

Thus the many are indeed freed from sin in death, their flesh destroyed, but given a new body in the new earth kingdonm, and with the ministry and trule of the few who were saints in this earth, countless many are saved , not just the few predestined to be first :-

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

the few are first, the many later, but we know the many go by the broad way and their bodies are destroyed for sin ,,,

Stranger:

Paul contradicts your modern religious dogma, and says that these sinners [1 Corinthians 5:5] will indeed be destroyed in death, but "saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ..." So you disagree with Paul then.

Jim:

No, I don’t disagree with Paul. As the quotations from Paul that I cited in message #20 show, Paul does not say what you have misinterpreted 1 Corinthians 5:5 to mean. The believer does not lose his salvation because of his fornication. As far as I can see, according to Paul, the only way for a believer to lose his salvation is to actually stop believing in Christ.

Salvation by the grace of God through belief in Christ is the foundation. If a believer builds on that foundation dishonorable works (sinful behavior by giving in to the sinful impulses of the flesh) instead of honorable works (righteous behavior by relying on the indwelling Spirit of God to overcome the sinful impulses of the flesh), then those dishonorable works will be burned at the judgment of the saints in the Day of the Lord instead of being rewarded, but the believer himself, his spirit, will be saved, yet as by fire, as Paul states in 1 Corinthians 3.

In 1 Corinthians 5:5, Paul says, “to give over the one such as this to the Satan for ruin/destruction/death of the flesh, so that the spirit would be saved in the Day of the Lord.” Here, Paul is clear in stating that this destruction occurs to the flesh of the rebellious believer, not to his spirit. Sinful behavior has consequences in this life that has nothing to do with losing one’s salvation.

stranger:

As proof from scripture of the commonplace mistake in modern religion, consider that only FEW avoid the broad way through destruction of the flesh in death [Matt 7:14]...

Jesus:

Matthew 7:13 You must enter through the narrow gate, because broad the gate and spacious the way the/which leading into the destruction, and many they are the ones entering through it, 14 as well narrow the gate and compressed the way the/which leading into the life, and few they are the ones finding it.

Matthew 10:28 And not you must fear from the ones killing the body, but the soul not being able to kill, but you must fear more/rather the One being able even soul and body to destroy in hell.

Jim:

It is not the destruction of the flesh, but the destruction of the soul/spirit, which the few avoid by finding life.

stranger:

BUT countless many of all nations are saved after the few [Rev 7:9-10]

Jim:

The 144,000 servants of God from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7:1-8 and the innumerable servants of God from every nation, tribe, people and tongue in Revelation 7:9-17 have found life and have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb. Everyone in Revelation 7 is included in the few who find life. As many as they are, they are still fewer than the ones who are not the servants of God and who have not found life and have not been washed in the Blood of the Lamb.

stranger:

Thus what you claim is denied by Matthew and Jesus too , why cling to it when you know modern religion is already deeply divided , not one truth of God, and it is prophesied that it MUST fall away [2Thess, Rev 13:3-10]. Why believe religion in place of the scriptures of the saints and Jesus then. Why refuse reproof to the scriptures when that is what they are for ? 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Jim:

I don’t reject what the Bible says. However, you have misinterpreted what the Bible says, and I’m pointing out to you these misinterpretations.

stranger:

Now many people in this life die without even knowing Jesus, there sadly are stillbirths, those who die at birth, those who die infants.... you want to believe against some scriptures that these are flung into the lake of fire without any chance to live righteously and be saved ... in what way were they more sinners than most people you know ?

Jim:

The Bible teaches that people are saved before they die through belief in Christ and that the ones who die in a state of unbelief are not saved. That is why the preaching of the Gospel is required. The Bible is clear on this.

What you are asking are questions that the Bible does not clearly address, specifically, how the ones who are not saved are judged individually based on their works. On the one hand, it looks like everyone is treated the same in that they are cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41-47 and Revelation 20:11-15), and yet on the other hand each one is to be judged according to his works, the works of one person differing from the works of another person (Luke 12:47-48).

stranger:

Now consider then that Jesus says they can be saved [Rev 7:9-10] , so instead of denying him by claiming he is wrong, consider why he is right ... there is a way of course, but one has to choose between accepting scripture as a whole of accepting religion that we know must be apostate and is divided , it is simply a question of deciding to believe Jesus and the saints or modern religion that they said must fall away and clearly has [else it would not be divided and teaching things out of line with scripture as a whole].

Revelation:

(ASV) Revelation 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held ... 11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course].

(ASV) Revelation 7:9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands ... 14 ... These are they that come [out] of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ...

Jim:

The innumerable servants of God in Revelation 7:9-17 are not people who died in unbelief. They are Christian martyrs. They have come out of great tribulation (compare Revelation 1:9, 2:9-10, 2:22 and 7:14).

stranger:

So we know how the few are saved by grace of their new covenant, and they are priests and kings in the kingdom after Jesus return and the wrath of God that kills all sinners and destroys the earth and heavens ... so who do the priests and kings serve and rule over in the kingdom in the new earth?

Jim:

Everyone in Revelation 7, both the 144,000 out of the 12 tribes (7:1-8) and the innumerable ones out of every nation, tribe, people and tongue (7:9-17), is saved by grace and washed in His Blood and is a priest and king and will reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years. By comparison to the number of the ones who are not saved, these saved ones, thought they are innumerable, are few.

stranger:

Clearly they cannot minister to anyone but those resurrected at the second resurrection , there is no-one else to serve ... what does Peter say about this new earth kingdom :-

Jim:

John says in Revelation that the saved ones reign with Christ over the unsaved ones for 1000 years with a rod of iron. He doesn’t describe it as ministering to them.

stranger:

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. So the works the many do before they are judged by works, are righteous , and God's judgment is that those who turn to righteousness will be saved, no matter that they were sinners before.

Jim:

In Revelation 20:1-11, John describes the 1000 years as a period in which the unsaved ones are compelled by Christ and His saved and resurrected ones to behave correctly, at the end of which period they break free of their restrains under the leadership of Satan and attack Christ and His saints. That doesn’t sound righteous to me.

The new heaven and earth of which Peter speaks is described in Revelation 21-22, which FOLLOWS (1) Christ’s return with His saints and the first resurrection (the resurrection of the saints) and (2) the 1000 years and (3) the final rebellion and (4) the second resurrection and (5) the final judgment in which the unsaved ones are cast into the lake of fire.

The ones who enter into the eternal city of the new heaven and earth in which righteousness dwells in Revelation 21-22 are the same ones who live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are the servants of God, whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life and who are washed in His Blood and who have God’s name and Christ’s name written on the foreheads and who participated in the first resurrection.

John does not say whether or not anyone gets saved during the 1000 years. He only describes them being ruled with a rod of iron and ultimately attacking Christ and His saints. He does not describe them as good people but as bad people. The function of Christ and His saints during the 1000 years appears to be comparable to the function of a warden and his guards at a prison.

stranger:

Ezek 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Now Paul tells us that those who die are paid the wages of their sin by death, that death frees a man from past sin [Rom 6:7]. Thus the many are indeed freed from sin in death, their flesh destroyed, but given a new body in the new earth kingdom, and with the ministry and rule of the few who were saints in this earth, countless many are saved , not just the few predestined to be first.

Jim:

The physical death of the wicked does not save anyone. When the wicked die, all hope of being saved is gone for them. As Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (verse 4:13) regarding the ones who participate in the first resurrection at the Coming of the Lord, the other ones, who do not participate in this first resurrection, have no hope. They are lost.

It is the death and resurrection of Christ which saved those who believe in Him. It is through believe in Him that His saints become dead to sin (through His death) and alive to God (through His resurrection), as stated by Paul in Romans 6.

stranger:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. The few are first, the many later, but we know the many go by the broad way and their bodies are destroyed for sin.

Jim:

Romans 8 describes believers in Christ, not people who have died in their sins.

Everyone’s physical (natural) body is destroyed when he or she physically dies, whether or not he or she is saved through belief in Christ. The issue is whether or not one’s soul and/or spirit will be destroyed. The soul and/or spirit of the one who is saved through belief in Christ will not be destroyed, whereas the soul and/or spirit of the unsaved one will be destroyed. That’s what the Bible teaches.

If God knew that no one could keep the law of Moses and that He would ultimately initiate a New Covenant of the Spirit, why did God bother with the Old Covenant of the law for all those centuries? Why not go straight to the Covenant of the Spirit?

Likewise, if God knows that the people who are to be ruled with a rod of iron during the 1000 years will remain wicked and will ultimately attack Christ and His saints, why bother with the 1000-year period? Why not go straight to the final judgment when the Lord Comes?

The answer to both of these questions appears to me to be the same, which is this. God is making a point. The point is this. Man is wicked, and he deserves whatever punishment he gets, and God is completely justified in punishing and destroying mankind, and He is also perfectly justified in saving through His gracious mercy whomever He chooses to save, whoever they may be and however few they may be.

What you want the Bible to say is that man is not so bad and that God is not justified in destroying him and that He owes man salvation.

What the Bible actually says is that man really is that bad and that God is perfectly justified in destroying him and that He does not owe man anything and that God’s choice to save anyone at all is an undeserved (on man’s part) act of mercy (on God’s part).

You seem to be of the opinion that if God doesn’t save someone, then He is committing some kind of crime. But according to the Bible, God is not the criminal. We are the criminals. And God does not owe us anything. The fact that God saves anyone at all speaks well of Him.

You seem to be of the opinion that if the one who has not heard the Gospel is not saved, then a crime is being committed. But have you considered this? In Romans 9-11, Paul says that God is not only not saving unbelieving Jews, but He is even preventing them from believing! Is God committing a crime in doing this? Does God owe the Jews something? Paul’s answer in Romans 9-11 is no. Paul says that God is perfectly free and justified in doing whatever He chooses.

If God chooses to call the fullness of the Gentiles to Christ before He calls the fullness of the Jews to Christ in order to erase in the New Covenant of the Spirit the Jewish priority that existed in the Old Covenant of the law, so that everyone (both Greek and Jew) is equal in the New Covenant of the Spirit (Matthew 20:1-16 and Romans 11:30-32), then that is His right as God, and man has no right to complain about it, because man is wicked and because God would be perfectly justified in destroying absolutely every human being if He chose to do so.

What the Bible teaches and what you want the Bible to teach are two completely different things.

You want to think that we’re the good guys and that God’s the bad Guy and that He owes us something. But the Bible teaches that we’re the bad guys and that God’s the good Guy and that He owes us nothing, and that if He decides to save any of us at all, then we should be eternally grateful for that undeserved act of kindness on His part.

To the OP: I don't know of Scripture requiring some sacrifice when the One the sacrifices looked forward to has now arrived.

The remnant is a portion of Israel in this case, but it's joined with a portion of the nations in the preceding verses.

Whether sacrifices would be performed isn't really theologically required, as Hebrews 10 points out the sacrifices are fulfilled in Christ. Some systems of eschatology require Israel to resume sacrifices in-Temple -- but I've not seen this as a Christian sacrificial system. That would be mind-boggling to me, given what all Hebrews says.