the remnant: who are they, and are they saved by works or grace?

if it is the idea of blood offerings that bothers you, let me recommend the following website which has a series of mp3 files by Tom Lancaster (which are free) which explain why blood sacrifice and the death of Jesus are NOT incompatible with one another and explains the whole issue of jesus and the sacrificial system....

here's the link

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/audio?page=2


Steve

p.s. hope it makes more sense now (oh there are 18 files in all.)

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice

1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. 6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said "About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son." 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told,(U) "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." 29And as Isaiah predicted,

"If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah."

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,

"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

Click to expand...

There will only be a remnant because most are not messianic. If you deny Jesus, you deny his sacrifice. Jesus IS Agnus Dei. The last blood sacrifice needed.

Verses 30-32 are very plain in saying that you are saved by grace (through face). Israel tries to attain righteousness by works which does not succeed.

That is what I take from it anyway

I don't know where you're getting what you said in your first post....

it seems pretty clear to me that he's saying that God gives salvation to both Jews and Gentiles, and that even though God fulfilled his promise to make Abraham's descendants as numerous as the sand of the sea, the promise of the blessing from 'Abraham's seed' (in other words, salvation through faith in Christ) will not come to ALL of Israel. (in other words, Israel is not guaranteed salvation merely because they are descendants of Abraham, but through faith in Christ.

but all Israel shall be saved (so says Romans)...

how are we to understand that concept?


Steve

cyberlizard said:

but all Israel shall be saved (so says Romans)...

how are we to understand that concept?


Steve

Click to expand...

Jesus is Israel!

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Overcome = prevail = Israel

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Prevailed = overcome = Israel

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. 1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Super Kal said:

Romans 9:27 speaks of a "remnant" of Israel, and with theology based within Eschatology, this remnant will still have to perform blood sacrifices to God, in which God will still be pleased...

now someone PLEASE explain to me how this is at all possible, since the Death of Christ on the cross was enough for everyone, and it is through grace and faith, not works righteousness, that we are saved...

who exactly is this remnant?

Click to expand...

Remnant: leftover: a small part or portion that remains after the main part no longer exists

First we have to understand that the remnant of Israel is not speaking about litteral Israel, rather spiritual Israel, those who have accepted Christ and His sacrifice.

Secondly, the remnant is representative of all those who shall be alive and remain when Christ returns. There shall be a number which no man can number that shall be saved, but relative to that, only a few shall be left alive and pass through the great tribulation which is soon to come upon the world.

Remember that Christ asks whether or not He shall find any faith on the earth when He returns. If you can recall just recently, a study showed that many americans no longer believe in God, or are falling away from their structured faith establishment. As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the time of the end. Many will fall away because the Lord delays His return, but He that shall come will come and will come quickly.

Verses 25 and 26 are quotations from Hosea which confirm the fact that some Gentiles have been selected and called by God to be His people.

Verses 27 through 29 are quotations from Isaiah which confirm the fact that not all Israel was selected, but that only a remnant of them, a seed kept by the Lord, was saved.

A remnant is a part of those of Isreal who will become Christian and follow Christ. As we all know here Orthodox Jews denied the messiah.

Grace is what saves us, all through the book of Romans (and the Pauline Epistles) we see Paul repeately making references Abraham he was deemed rightous by faith. Faith which was given to use by God purely by his grace and not of our works.

Romans 11:26 -

"...and so all Israel shall be saved." ASV

"So" is the Greek word "houto".

THAYER gives the meaning as: in this manner.

Given the context, this verse is saying Israel (the Jews) will be saved in the same manner that the Gentiles are saved, NOT that all of Israel will be saved (at some point in the future).


For some reason, that makes the entire passage harmonize with itself...

The context of Romans 9:25-29 is verses 9:22-24. The non-people who became His people in verses 9:25-26 are the Gentile aspect of “US” (the Church) in verse 9:24, and the “remnant” in verses 9:27-29 are the Jewish aspect of “US” (the Church) in verse 9:24. They are the “remnant” that exists “at the present time” in verse 11:5, who are "according to grace," which is the Jewish aspect of “US” (the Church).

In Romans 11:25, Paul says that part of Israel does not believe in Christ and that the other part of Israel believes in Him UNTIL the Gentiles have believed in Him and have entered (into the part of Israel that believes in Him, Gentile believers joining Jewish believes in the part of Israel that believes in Him), which implies that the part of Israel that had not believed in Him will then likewise believe in Him and will likewise enter into the part of Israel that believes in Him, at which point both parts of Israel (all Israel) will have believed in Him.

In verse 11:26, Paul then states that it is in this manner (the manner just described in verse 11:25) that all Israel (both parts of Israel) will have been saved through belief in Christ, at which point Israel’s transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant will be complete.

These two parts of Israel in Romans 11:25 are the two Israels in verses 9:6-8 (the believing Israel that is the believing part of Israel in verse 11:25) and in verses 9:31-32 and 11:7 (the unbelieving Israel that is the unbelieving part of Israel in 11:25).

Paul talked about how God preserved within Israel true children of Abraham, children of the promise. That while they would fall into disobedience (to give way for the salvation of the Gentiles-9:11) God would ultimately preserve within them a remnant group, to maintain his promise to Abraham. Thus to incorporate them into the covenant of Christ 11:32-For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. That is the mystery of the wondrous God and truly a thing to hope for.

Super Kal said:

Romans 9:27 speaks of a "remnant" of Israel, and with theology based within Eschatology, this remnant will still have to perform blood sacrifices to God, in which God will still be pleased...

now someone PLEASE explain to me how this is at all possible, since the Death of Christ on the cross was enough for everyone, and it is through grace and faith, not works righteousness, that we are saved...

who exactly is this remnant?

Click to expand...

the new covenant of grace is given by Paul in Heb 8:8-12 detailed here:-
http://www.christianforums.com/t7364664/

It is identical to the version given long before Jesus came by Jeremiah 31:31-34 , underlining that grace is for the remnant children of Israel named by Jesus , tribe by tribe, descended from the named sons of Jacob [Rev 7:3-8]

These FEW [literally just tens of thousands - Jude 1:14] are thus the few that find the straight narrow way in this life prior to Jesus return to take those who are saints by then [or by death, if sooner] [Matt 7:14]

What then of the MANY who go by the broad way through destruction in death?

We know that countless many are saved according to Jesus [Rev 7:9-10] , so the MANY are certainly not all lost, as much modern divided Christianity claims!

we know from Jesus that the many who go by the broad way are all resurrected from hell and judged by works :-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

and we know when that is, AFTER the Millennium :-

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

So why are the FEW saved by grace of the new covenant,
http://www.christianforums.com/t7364664/

but the countless MANY saved after [Rev 7:9-10] who went through destruction in death and resurrection from hell clearly are saved by beiing freed from sin by death - as sin's sole wages is death :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Freed from past sin then, countless many who go by the broad way in this life are saved by works after the Millennium [in the righteous new earth kingdom of God]:-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness...

The FEW are translated first ,at Jesus' return, because God requires them to be the kings and priests in His kingdom, to serve the countless many [over 12 billion gentiles] later , as promised long ago to Moses :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Israel were never a holy nation and kingdom of priests under the old covenant , but as Paul and God say in the hew covenant, their children [remnant of their descendants] are forgiven all sins under the old covenant.

Thus Jesus is the prophesied king [Messiah, Christ] who will re-unite the two Houses of divided Israel into a holy nation of priests in God's kingdom, by means of which countless many gentiles will be redeemed by the ministry and rule of the descendants of Jacob [Israel]

stranger:

but the countless MANY saved after [Rev 7:9-10] who went through destruction in death and resurrection from hell clearly are saved by being freed from sin by death - as sin's sole wages is death ... Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. ... Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ... Freed from past sin then, countless many who go by the broad way in this life are saved by works after the Millennium [in the righteous new earth kingdom of God].

Paul:

(ASV) Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. We who died to sin, how shall we any longer live therein? 3 Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with [him] in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of his resurrection; 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin; 7 for he that hath died is justified from sin. 8 But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him ... 11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof: 13 neither present your members unto sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace. ... 17 ... whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; 18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. ... 20 For when ye were servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness. 21 ... the things whereof ye are now ashamed ... the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have .. sanctification, and the end eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jim:

Everything that Paul says in Romans 6 applies only to Christians, who have died to sin through Christ’s death and have been raised to live free of sin through Christ’s resurrection, all of which is the result of God’s grace toward Christians through Christ. Paul is not talking about some other group of people, and he is not talking about salvation through works, because there is no such thing, according to Paul.

In Revelation, all who are not in the book of life are in the lake of fire from the judgment onward, and all who are in the book of life are with God after the judgment.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Click to expand...

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, [every one] whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, [they] whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Click to expand...

The ones in the book of life do not worship the beast, and they participate in the first resurrection, which exempts them from the lake of fire, and they reign with Christ throughout the 1000 years. The rest of the dead are not resurrected until after the 1000 years (the second resurrection), and they end up in the lake of fire. The ones in the book of life live with God after the judgment. Revelation does not describe a third group of people, and nothing in the New Testament teaches that anyone can be saved through works. Everyone who is saved is saved through the Blood of Christ (grace). All of the people in Revelation 7 are washed in His Blood and they drink the water of life. They are not saved by works.

Few find the narrow straight way [Matt 7:14]

Jesus tell us how few [Rev 7:3-8 , also Jude 1:14 , showing there are literally just 144,000 , it is not symbolic because Enoch says there are but tens of thousands of saints with Jesus when he comes]

Thus 144,000 only are saved at Jesus' return, the few , the rest are sinners, not saints and all die as wages of sin, they all go by the broad way through destruction in death...

But Jesus says that countless many of these ,who were sinners until death in this life , are saved afterward [Rev 7:9-10]

Now all these who are not the few, cannot live again until the second resurrection ... that is almost all folks are sinners until death and cannot live until after the Millenium, yet countless many of them are saved , according to Jesus own words [Rev 7:9-10]

Now , as Paul says , all have been paid the wages of sin in death, they are freed of sin by death [Rom 6:7]

They need no grace, they have paid the price in death for sin , IF they live righteously after the Millenium in the then established kingdom, ruled and ministered to by the few and their descendants , then Jesus promises they will be judged by their works , thus their works after resurrection ...

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

of the many [almost all] who remain sinners to death or are still sinners, not saints by Jesus' return, all are destroyed in death on the broad way, but Jesus says countless many of them are saved ... they cannot even start the works by which they are sabed until resurrected at the second resurrection [of the unjust, those unjustified by grace, those not chosen and predestinated to be the FEW priests and kings required to run the kingdom come in which Jesus says many are saved and by living righteously escape a second death as wages of sin in the kingdom]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7350250-2/#post51579767

The only reason that the few have unmerited unconditional forgiveness [grace] is that God had to name someone for sake of showing His powers of prophecy ... He happened to name Israel and they broke His covenant with Him, so he was obliged for His sake , not theirs, to create a new covenant with them where they simply have His laws put in them and shall thus be His people , their will converted [in 144,000] to His will simply by accepting His truth , the actual new covenant of grace is absolutely specific that it is only with those whose fathers broke the old covenant :-

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364664/

Jesus also confirms this in Rev 7:3-8, all the few saints , sealed by the holy spirit of God [not taught by men] , are descendants of the sons of Jacob, by name , just as the promise was carried down through the Hebrews through Moses and the other blessed figures featuring in the history of Israel in scripture :-

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The few of Israel Matt 7:14 saved by grace simply cannot be turned into the countless many of all nations judged by works which Jesus says are saved [Rev 7:9-10] ... but not saved until the few are ready to minister to and rule the many in the kingdom after the Millenium [when over 12 billion will be resurrected]

Consider then why God prepares the kingdom with the few ruling and ministering as priests? -who do they rule . who do they minister to , if not to the countless many whom Jesus says are saved after them ... clearly there are those who still follow Satan ,who is released at the second resurrection too , and for them a second death for sin, but countless many are saved then too, by works, grace never needed to apply to them.

Consider too why, if God pre-judged all sinners in this life, why bother to set up priests when the priests already know Him ? [Heb 8:8-12 , they do not teach each other because God put His law in them, they have no further need of teaching]

Why resurrect 12 billion sinners from this world just to kill them again ????

Why set up a perfect priesthood and kings and not let them minister and rule in turn, just as Jesus ministered to them and ruled them in this life ? [so they were the kingdom of God here, but the kingdom of God doesn't come to the many until after the second ressurection...

Many lived only brief lives in this world , stillbirths, children that die after a few days, months , years , many people already died in this life never even having heard of Jesus... their first chance to be saved comes only after they are resurrected after the Millennium.

stranger:

Why resurrect 12 billion sinners from this world just to kill them again ????

Jim:

Because they have to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

According to your question, none of the ones cast into the lake of fire should have been raised in the second resurrection, and yet they were.

Apparently, you disagree with the Bible on how things should work. Although you are free to dislike what Bible says, you are not free to pretend that the Bible does not say a thing when you don't like what it says.

Jim1 said:

stranger:

Why resurrect 12 billion sinners from this world just to kill them again ????

Jim:

Because they have to be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

According to your question, none of the ones cast into the lake of fire should have been raised in the second resurrection, and yet they were.

Apparently, you disagree with the Bible on how things should work. Although you are free to dislike what Bible says, you are not free to pretend that the Bible does not say a thing when you don't like what it says.

Click to expand...

You misunderstood my point. I am not questioning the bible, I am just pointing out that it says something othere than your interpretation of it BECAUSE by your way of reading it , God has already judged sinners by the time they die in this life ... so why would he then resurrect them to judge them again and kill them again if there were no chance of mercy...
It is your idea that God's mercy does not endure for ever , not mine. scripture says God mercy does endure for all time, your view of salvation makes mercy pointless after death as a sinner in this life .

I just thought you might reconsider in light of these contradictions in your beliefs, that's all... there is a more consistent way of viewing scripture in which it all fits together as one truth as necessary for the truth of God , but it means reproving religious tradition to the scripture to understand why God saves the few first [Matt 7:14, Rev 7:3-8] and the many of the many who go the broad way through destruction in death, after the Millenium [Rev 7:9-10]

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

destruction ain't the end of salvation you see , far from it, most go thsi way to Jesus [Rev 7:9-10] ,only few go the narrow way to Jesus [Matt 7:14]

stranger:

... by your way of reading it , God has already judged sinners by the time they die in this life ...

Jim:

Not so. The unsaved dead await judgment. When they are raised in the second resurrection, that is when they are judged according to their works and cast into the lake of fire, as explicitly stated in the Bible. The unsaved are in one sense already judged in that they have not believed in Christ (John 3:18), but in another sense their judgment according to their works will not occur until the last day (John 5:28-29).

stranger:

Jesus tell us how few [Rev 7:3-8 , also Jude 1:14 , showing there are literally just 144,000 , it is not symbolic because Enoch says there are but tens of thousands of saints with Jesus when he comes].


Revelation:

1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants ... 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia ... 6 ... he made us [to be] a kingdom, [to be] priests unto his God and Father ... 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice ... 11 ... What thou seest, write in a book and send [it] to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father. ...

3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. ... 21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

5:9 ... thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood [men] of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, 10 and madest them [to be] unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they will reign upon earth. 11 ... many angels round about the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands ...

6:9 ... I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held ...11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course].

7:3 ... Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel. ... 9 ... I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands ... 11 ... all the angels were standing round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God. 12 ... These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they? ... 14 ... These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ...16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun strike upon them, nor any heat: 17 for the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

9:3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts ... 4 ... that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads.

13:7 ... it was given unto [the beast] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, [every one] whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.

14:1 ... I saw ... the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads. ... 3 and they sing ... a new song before the throne ... and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, [even] they that had been purchased out of the earth. 4 ... These [are] they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, [to be] the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. 9 ... If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 ... he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever ... they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

16:13 ... spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty. 15 (Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walked naked, and they see his shame.) 16 And they gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew Har-magedon.

17:12 ... ten kings ... receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour. ... 14 These shall war against the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings; and they [also shall overcome] that are with him, called and chosen and faithful.

19:7 ... the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright [and] pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. ... 11 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteous he doth judge and make war. ... 14 ... the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white [and] pure. ... 19 ... I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. 20 ... the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet ... they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone. 21 ... the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth ...

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. ... 12 ... I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne ... 13 ... they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire. 15 ... if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 ... I saw a new heaven and a new earth ... 3 ... Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God: 4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. ... 6 ... I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 ... the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [shall be] in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. ... 23 ... the city hath no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine upon it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp thereof [is] the Lamb. ... 27 ... there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.

22:1 ... a river of water of life ... proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb ... 2 ... on this side of the river and on that was the tree of life ... 3 ... there shall be no curse any more: and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be therein: and his servants shall serve him ... 4 ... his name [shall be] on their foreheads. 5 ... they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light ... 6 ... the Lord ... sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass12 Behold, I come quickly ... 14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right ... to the tree of life, and my enter in by the gates into the city. ... 17 ... he that is athirst, let him come: he that will, let him take the water of life freely.

Jim:

Revelation divides people into good guys and bad guys.

1. The good guys are the servants of God, who wear white robes washed in the Blood of the Lamb, and who have the seal of God’s name on their foreheads, and whose names are written in the Book of Life, and who will participate in the first resurrection, and who will accompany Christ when He returns to earth, and who will reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years, and who are destined for the eternal city.

2. The bad guys are the other guys, who worship the Beast, and who have his number on their foreheads or hands, and who will participate in the second resurrection, and who are destined for the lake of fire.

In addition to it being said in Revelation 7:1-8 that 12,000 servants of God are to be sealed from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, it is also said in verses 7:9-17 that God’s servants are to be from every nation, tribe, people and tongue and that their number is to be too large to count. All of them will participate in the first resurrection, and all of them will accompany Christ when he returns to earth, and all of them will reign with Him for a thousand years, and all of them will live with Him in the eternal city.

stranger (quoting Paul):

... 1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ... destruction ain’t the end of salvation you see ...

Paul

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ. ... 3 for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men? ... 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation ... 13 ... the day shall declare it ... and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire. ... 22 all [things] are yours; 23 and ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

(ASV) 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even among the Gentiles, that one [of you] hath his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he that had done this deed might be taken away from among you. ... 5 ... deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. ... 9 I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; 10 not at all [meaning] with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: 11 but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. ... 13 ... Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.

(ASV) 2 Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obeyeth not our word by this epistle, note that man, that ye have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed.

Jim:

I don’t know what your point is. All Paul is talking about is shunning believers who are engaging in blatant sin in order to protect the body of believers from the sin and in order to shame the rebellious believer to repentance. In the end, he may suffer loss and have no reward, but at least his spirit will be saved, yet so as by fire.

However, anyone who dies as an unbeliever cannot be saved after he dies. He will not participate in the first resurrection, but he will participate in the second resurrection, and he will be judged according to his works, and he will be cast into the lake of fire.