How do you know that god is moral?

Ectezus said:

Many topics on this forum are about whether there is a god or not. But what about your judgment on determining that he's actually worth worshipping?
Why not worship Satan instead (hypothetically if you don't believe he really exists) for example.

1) Do you think god programmed you to know he's the good guy or does he allow you to form your own opinion about him with your free will?

2) What is your criteria for determining that your god is moral?

- Ectezus

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All I can do is make a judgement based on the actions of Jesus of Nazareth.

Morality consists of principles that distinguish between right and wrong or good and bad behavior. Now if I permitted something bad to exist when I had the power to eliminate it one would be justified in questioning my morals. And I think it's reasonable to apply this same assessment to god. If evil exists and God is all powerful and could eliminate it but has chosen not to, there must be a very good reason. So if god has chosen to let evil exist then evil must be good. But this is not what we're told. We're told that evil is bad. So what does this make god in terms of a moral entity?

Hmm. Three hours have passed, there have been 44 views, and no more posts. Evidently this is a) a boring issue, b) a difficult issue, c) an embarrassing issue.

I'm reminded of the book by Robert Heinlein, Job: A Comedy of Justice. In this book, a person who works for a fundamentalist Christian organization ends up being tested -- he is a second Job, if you will. As a Christian, he looks at the trials as having some purpose and maintains his staunch belief in God. At the end of his trial he is caught up in the rapture and goes to heaven, where he is told he is a saint.

Once in heaven, he seeks for the woman who became his companion during his trials and finds out that she is not in heaven. Not wanting to stay in heaven if she is not there, he travels to hell to find her (since, based on what God has stated, that is where she must be). Once in hell, he finds that God lied, that he is not the "only" God but merely one of many. And, since his companion had believed in Odin, she had gone to Valhalla. He further found out that the devil was not evil -- in fact the devil was actually the one "person" that actively helped him at a crucial point during his trial.

While I can see why many Christians might be offended by the book, it is an interesting read and definitely shows how God -- despite all that is claimed in the Bible -- could actually be the "bad guy".

And as for the "four hours has passed", it is the weekend and far fewer people seem to post here (and post less frequently).

I would assume that the Christian god would be inherently moral, and whatever attributes it possesses are moral. If our morals disagree with those, then we are wrong.

HeelyJoe said:

I would assume that the Christian god would be inherently moral, and whatever attributes it possesses are moral. If our morals disagree with those, then we are wrong.

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That would be a reasonable assumption were it not for the points previously brought up.

Washington said:

So if god has chosen to let evil exist then evil must be good. But this is not what we're told. We're told that evil is bad. So what does this make god in terms of a moral entity?

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Ponder this quote:

"All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing
this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill
of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the
want of skill is." - Tao Te Ching

If no beauty existed, would there be ugly? Likewise, if no ugly existed, would there be beauty? Therefore, can beauty exist without ugly?

This brings us to the question, can evil exist without good?

Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God’s purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin. But let me offer you the following facts for your consideration: God has control over Satan and all evil. Notice what God said to the serpent in Genesis 3:15: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed, it shall bruise [literally, crush] thy head.” Now this will take place in accord with God’s purpose, for Paul writes in Romans 16:20, “Now the God of peace will be crushing Satan under your feet swiftly.” Why does God wait to crush the head of the serpent? Why does He not crush him on the spot? No, there is still a need for the work of the serpent in God’s plan and purpose. Genesis 3:14 also reveals that God has control over the serpent, for God pronounced a curse upon him and said, “Upon thy belly shalt thou go and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.” This certainly tells us that God has control over the movement of the serpent. He can only go as, and where, God permits. He is anything but free in his activities and he cannot defy the God Who made him. Read the first two chapters of Job and see how God restrained Satan in his dealings with this patriarch. He could go just so far and no further. And what did Satan’s evil upon Job produce? Why, it just proved God’s word to be true. God had said that Job was righteous, and all the evil that Satan wrought but heralded the fact that God is true and that His word is immutable.

Evil has its underlying purposes in the will of God. While, yes, evil is bad and should be avoided, it is in evil that most good is formed. We cannot see past our own finite lives, but an omniscient infinite creator sees all. As C.S. Lewis puts it, "pain is God's megaphone to warn a morally deaf world." It is in evil and opposition that our true character is revealed.

Washington said:

That would be a reasonable assumption were it not for the points previously brought up.

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Eh, it is "moral" so long as you define morality as many Christians do -- that "morality" is what God says. Therefore, it doesn't matter if God is "wrong", since his wrong opinion is God's that makes it "moral". Or so the circular reasoning goes.

Ectezus said:

Many topics on this forum are about whether there is a god or not. But what about your judgment on determining that he's actually worth worshipping?
Why not worship Satan instead (hypothetically if you don't believe he really exists) for example.

1) Do you think god programmed you to know he's the good guy or does he allow you to form your own opinion about him with your free will?

2) What is your criteria for determining that your god is moral?

- Ectezus

Click to expand...

well if there is a god it gave me enough free will to tell that the ones ive read about so far are horrible beings. And any being that demands worship is not worthy of it.

Ben-AG said:

Evil has its underlying purposes in the will of God. While, yes, evil is bad and should be avoided, it is in evil that most good is formed. We cannot see past our own finite lives, but an omniscient infinite creator sees all. As C.S. Lewis puts it, "pain is God's megaphone to warn a morally deaf world." It is in evil and opposition that our true character is revealed.

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I don't get it. If God uses evil to work good, then evil isn't actually evil but is actually good, isn't it?

How can anyone believe that the God of the OT is a moral being? The following are excerpts from the website Evil bible.com; that shows God to be a very immoral entity to say the least:

Abortion:
Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.”

Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children.God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. And the Christians have the audacity to say god is pro-life. How and the hell is it that Christians can read passages where God allows pregnant women to be murdered, yet still claim abortion is wrong?
Infanticide:
1 Samuel 15:3 God commands the death of helpless "suckling" infants. This literally means that the children god killed were still nursing.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 Here god is praised for slaughtering little babies.
Psalms 137:9 Here god commands that infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

The murdering of children:
Leviticus 20:9 “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah killed his young daughter (his only child) by burning her alive as a burnt sacrifice to the lord for he commanded it.
Psalms 137:8-9 Prayer/song of vengeance “0 daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”
2 Kings 6:28-29 “And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him today, and we will eat my son tomorrow. So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son.”
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
Judges 19:24-29 “Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place. And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.” To put it very bluntly this poor, young lady was murdered by her mate for being raped.
Exodus 12:29 God killed, intentionally, every first-born child of every family in Egypt, simply because he was upset at the Pharaoh. And god caused the Pharaoh’s actions in the first place. Since when is it appropriate to murder children for their ruler’s forced action?
Exodus 20:9-10 God commands death for cursing out ones parents Joshua 8 God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai. They were all slain in the ambush that was planned by god.
2 Kings 2:23-24 The prophet Elisha, was being picked on by some young boys from the city because of his bald head. The prophet turned around and cursed them in the Lords name. Then, two female bears came out of the woods and killed forty-two of them. You would think that God could understand that sometimes the youthful make childish jokes. Calling someone “bald head” is far from being worthy of death.
Leviticus 26:30 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
1 Samuel 15:11-18 God repents of having made Saul king since Saul refused to carry out God’s commandments (i.e., Saul refused to murder all the innocent women and children.) At least god realizes what an immoral, murderous pig he is on this one.
I Kings 16:34 Laying the foundation for a city using your firstborn child and using your youngest son to set up the gates.
Isaiah 13:15-18 If God can find you, he will “thrust you through,” smash your children “to pieces” before your eyes, and rape your wife.
Jeremiah 11:22-23 God will kill the young men in war and starve their children to death.
Jeremiah 19:7-9 God will make parents eat their own children, and friends eat each other.
Lamentations 2:20-22 God gets angry and mercilessly torments and kills everyone, young and old. He even causes women to eat their children.

Child abuse:
Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.
I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man. I look upon his suggestion with far more revulsion then I give accredit to Susan Smith.
Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children.
Matthew 19:29 If you really loved Jesus then he insists that you abandon your wife and children for him. Only that way will he allow you to go to heaven. (That is if you meet his other hefty requirements, don’t slip through the loopholes, and ignore the contradictions.)
Mark 7:9 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law.


Can anyone truly believe that one who commands such atrocities to happen; is a benevolent and kind God?
I think not

Yeah, if I was a Christian I'd have chucked out the OT on the first read. I don't really understand why Christians want to keep it around, it's full of atrocities and boring genealogies and when compared to Jesus' teachings it's mostly confusing. While at it, I'll follow with the book of revelations. It's never a good thing to give zealous people apocalyptic reading material.
I suspect that those people who put the bible together weren't thinking very clearly.

Ben-AG said:

This brings us to the question, can evil exist without good?

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Probably. If everything in life was undesirable, inappropriate, and not benificial (no existence of good what-so-ever) then I can well imagine that purposeful harm (evil) could also exist. But what is your point here?

Evil is a problem only to those who fail to see God’s purpose in it and who refuse to believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin.

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So if you understand god's purpose in his retention of evil, then someone who purposely slaughters your children would not be a problem. Gotta say that's a pretty cold.

God has control over Satan and all evil.

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Is it your understanding that people only commit evil acts because Satan makes them?

While, yes, evil is bad and should be avoided, it is in evil that most good is formed.

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????? So if most good is formed in evil deeds why would one want to avoid it? And why would you then call it bad?

Evil has its underlying purposes in the will of God.

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And that purpose is? If it's to bring people to him through Jesus then his scatter-shot approach is very uncaring and damaging to those unaware of this avenue of relief. And, assuming that you are among those who "believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin" then evil will never touch you?

Washington said:

So if you understand god's purpose in his retention of evil, then someone who purposely slaughters your children would not be a problem. Gotta say that's a pretty cold.

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No. Like I said, it is to be avoided. I would never wish evil on my worst enemy.

Washington said:

Is it your understanding that people only commit evil acts because Satan makes them?

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People commit evil acts because they choose to. Satan is the voice whispering in your ear telling you that it's okay to do a crime or commit a sin.

Washington said:

????? So if most good is formed in evil deeds why would one want to avoid it? And why would you then call it bad?

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Evil is not the only medium in which God accomplishes good. You must understand, God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He gave people free-will to choose between good and evil and knows our decisions before we make it. And, when we choose to pick evil over Him, no doubt, it saddens Him. He hates evil and sin because it doesn't want to coexist with us, it wants to consume us. But, God in his infinite power and wisdom uses the evil we choose to affect people beyond our scope of understanding and for good beyond our scope of understanding as well.

Washington said:

And that purpose is? If it's to bring people to him through Jesus then his scatter-shot approach is very uncaring and damaging to those unaware of this avenue of relief. And, assuming that you are among those who "believe that God will bring blessings to all mankind through His dealing with evil and sin" then evil will never touch you?

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People are broken by our own choice. We have a choice between good and evil. Christians, of course, are presented this choice as are non-Christians. The difference comes in whether or not one recognizes this decision and the choice they make.

Ben-AG said:

No. Like I said, it is to be avoided. I would never wish evil on my worst enemy.

People commit evil acts because they choose to. Satan is the voice whispering in your ear telling you that it's okay to do a crime or commit a sin.

Evil is not the only medium in which God accomplishes good. You must understand, God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He gave people free-will to choose between good and evil and knows our decisions before we make it. And, when we choose to pick evil over Him, no doubt, it saddens Him. He hates evil and sin because it doesn't want to coexist with us, it wants to consume us. But, God in his infinite power and wisdom uses the evil we choose to affect people beyond our scope of understanding and for good beyond our scope of understanding as well.

People are broken by our own choice. We have a choice between good and evil. Christians, of course, are presented this choice as are non-Christians. The difference comes in whether or not one recognizes this decision and the choice they make.

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You have a good day now.

Ectezus said:

Yes I agree, but that doesn't answer both the questions. How do you determine those actions are actually moral?

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A degree of bootstrapping, I suppose. Do his actions fit what I already understand to be moral? If not, on critical examination do I find that his actions make more moral sense than what I already understood to be moral or not? And additionally, does he actually manage to live the moral standard, or just talk about it?