So are you going to ignore scripture? What does 1 Corth. 3: 5-10 mean? "the man will be saved, by fire" Explain to me what Paul is saying to us.
Upvote
0
Porgatory...Real or myth.
- Thread starter WarriorOfGrace
- Start date
- Status
So are you going to ignore scripture? What does 1 Corth. 3: 5-10 mean? "the man will be saved, by fire" Explain to me what Paul is saying to us.
VOW
Moderator
- Feb 7, 2002
- 6,912
- 15
- 71
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
To Dan:
In previous postings in the Protestant/Christian/Jewish Discussion, the "Judgment Seat of Christ" as believed by Protestants was compared to Purgatory, and the suggestion was made that they are one and the same, with different names attached to them.
Purgatory isn't a PLACE so much as a PROCESS. We have our tickets to Heaven, stamped by Jesus. However, when we die, we still will have some stain of sin upon our souls. Purgatory is the process by which we are CLEANSED, so we are fit to be in the presence of God. God cannot abide sin, and until we are cleansed we cannot enter Heaven. Compare it to being invited to a banquet, indeed, the Banquet of the Lamb. There is a seat at the table for us, but we must "wash up" before we can sit.
THAT is what the passage in 1 Corinthians is describing. Paul says the works of straw and wood (the stains of sin) will be burnt away with fire, leaving only the gold and precious jewels (our souls) behind. Thus cleansed, we will then be permitted into Heaven, to glorify God for eternity.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
In previous postings in the Protestant/Christian/Jewish Discussion, the "Judgment Seat of Christ" as believed by Protestants was compared to Purgatory, and the suggestion was made that they are one and the same, with different names attached to them.
Purgatory isn't a PLACE so much as a PROCESS. We have our tickets to Heaven, stamped by Jesus. However, when we die, we still will have some stain of sin upon our souls. Purgatory is the process by which we are CLEANSED, so we are fit to be in the presence of God. God cannot abide sin, and until we are cleansed we cannot enter Heaven. Compare it to being invited to a banquet, indeed, the Banquet of the Lamb. There is a seat at the table for us, but we must "wash up" before we can sit.
THAT is what the passage in 1 Corinthians is describing. Paul says the works of straw and wood (the stains of sin) will be burnt away with fire, leaving only the gold and precious jewels (our souls) behind. Thus cleansed, we will then be permitted into Heaven, to glorify God for eternity.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
Upvote
0
Scripture doesn't teach "Sola Scriptura".
"But if I am delayed, this letter will let you know how we should conduct ourselves in God's household, which is the CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT OF THE TRUTH." 1 Tim 3:15
-notice St.Paul says that the church is the pillar of truth, not Scriptures. Jesus left a teaching church from which flowed the New Testament. We believe in God's Word alone ie: the Bible and the Church together
-Jesus never wrote a word, exept in the sand.
See also:
1. Eph 2:20 - You too, are built upon the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets, the cornerstone being Christ Jeuss himself." Eph 2:20
2.Acts 1:20 - "....It is also written, 'May someone else take his place of service."
3.Acts 4:14 - "Do not neglect the spiritual gift that is in you, which was given to you when the prophets spoke and the elders laid their hands on you."
4.Acts 14:23 - "In each church they appointed elders, and with prayers and fasting they commended them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust."
5.2 Tim 2:2 - "TAKE THE TEACHINGS THAT YOU HEARD ME PROCLAIM IN THE PRESENCE OF MANY WITNESSES, AND ENTRUST THEM TO RELIABLE PEOPLE, WHO WILL BE ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS ALSO."
6.Titus 1:5 - "I left you in Crete, so that you culd put in order the things that still needed doing and APPOINT ELDERS IN EVERY TOWN."
7.2 Tim 1:13 - "HOLD FIRMLY TO THE TRUE WORDS THAT I TAUGHT YOU, AS THE EXAMPLE FOR YOU TO FOLLOW...."
I hope you get my point. The Bible itself points to a teaching tradition that is Oral. The Bible is important but the authority of the Church came first and exists until today. Everytime you agree that the books of the NT are cannonical, you are affirming the authority of the Catholic Church. There were approx 120 books to choose from and the Church council at the end of 300 A.D. choose only 27 books for the NT. From my understanding, this list or cannon had to be approved by the Pope prior to circulation.
Can you please give me the verse number for "Absent of the body present with Christ," for I do believe that it is misquoted.
Also, please tell me why if hades is eternal hell, it get's thrown into gehenna at the end of the world? Rev 20:14 "Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire." (Otherwise translated, "then death and hades were thrown into gehenna.)
Remember, Sola Scriptura is a fairly new teaching. The Catholic Church has been teaching otherwise since the beginning. There are many good reasons why it doesn't work:
1. Most people couldn't read. How could they decide for themselves what the Scriptures meant if they couldn't read them.
2. It was the Catholic Church who preserved the Bible until the time of the Printing Press in the 1400's. Until the printing press was invented, all copies of the Bible were copied by hand by monks in rooms called "Scriptoriums." They had no artificial light, and candles were a fire hazard so they spent the daylight hours handwriting Scriptures.
3. If all copies of the Bible were handwritten then they were very rare and very expensive. Too expensive for any peasents to own, probably too expensive for most people too own. Which is also one of the main reasons why there is such a large collection of artwork and statues, that is how many of the people learned the Bible stories.
There's more, but maybe we can discuss it later.
Thanx,Luv
Theresa
"But if I am delayed, this letter will let you know how we should conduct ourselves in God's household, which is the CHURCH OF THE LIVING GOD, THE PILLAR AND SUPPORT OF THE TRUTH." 1 Tim 3:15
-notice St.Paul says that the church is the pillar of truth, not Scriptures. Jesus left a teaching church from which flowed the New Testament. We believe in God's Word alone ie: the Bible and the Church together
-Jesus never wrote a word, exept in the sand.
See also:
1. Eph 2:20 - You too, are built upon the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets, the cornerstone being Christ Jeuss himself." Eph 2:20
2.Acts 1:20 - "....It is also written, 'May someone else take his place of service."
3.Acts 4:14 - "Do not neglect the spiritual gift that is in you, which was given to you when the prophets spoke and the elders laid their hands on you."
4.Acts 14:23 - "In each church they appointed elders, and with prayers and fasting they commended them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust."
5.2 Tim 2:2 - "TAKE THE TEACHINGS THAT YOU HEARD ME PROCLAIM IN THE PRESENCE OF MANY WITNESSES, AND ENTRUST THEM TO RELIABLE PEOPLE, WHO WILL BE ABLE TO TEACH OTHERS ALSO."
6.Titus 1:5 - "I left you in Crete, so that you culd put in order the things that still needed doing and APPOINT ELDERS IN EVERY TOWN."
7.2 Tim 1:13 - "HOLD FIRMLY TO THE TRUE WORDS THAT I TAUGHT YOU, AS THE EXAMPLE FOR YOU TO FOLLOW...."
I hope you get my point. The Bible itself points to a teaching tradition that is Oral. The Bible is important but the authority of the Church came first and exists until today. Everytime you agree that the books of the NT are cannonical, you are affirming the authority of the Catholic Church. There were approx 120 books to choose from and the Church council at the end of 300 A.D. choose only 27 books for the NT. From my understanding, this list or cannon had to be approved by the Pope prior to circulation.
Can you please give me the verse number for "Absent of the body present with Christ," for I do believe that it is misquoted.
Also, please tell me why if hades is eternal hell, it get's thrown into gehenna at the end of the world? Rev 20:14 "Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire." (Otherwise translated, "then death and hades were thrown into gehenna.)
Remember, Sola Scriptura is a fairly new teaching. The Catholic Church has been teaching otherwise since the beginning. There are many good reasons why it doesn't work:
1. Most people couldn't read. How could they decide for themselves what the Scriptures meant if they couldn't read them.
2. It was the Catholic Church who preserved the Bible until the time of the Printing Press in the 1400's. Until the printing press was invented, all copies of the Bible were copied by hand by monks in rooms called "Scriptoriums." They had no artificial light, and candles were a fire hazard so they spent the daylight hours handwriting Scriptures.
3. If all copies of the Bible were handwritten then they were very rare and very expensive. Too expensive for any peasents to own, probably too expensive for most people too own. Which is also one of the main reasons why there is such a large collection of artwork and statues, that is how many of the people learned the Bible stories.
There's more, but maybe we can discuss it later.
Thanx,Luv
Theresa
Upvote
0
VOW
Moderator
- Feb 7, 2002
- 6,912
- 15
- 71
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
To Theresa:
Not only were the Bibles too EXPENSIVE for the peasants to own, the peasants couldn't READ. They were too busy trying to merely survive to bother with reading, an occupation only of the rich.
Peace,
~VOW
Not only were the Bibles too EXPENSIVE for the peasants to own, the peasants couldn't READ. They were too busy trying to merely survive to bother with reading, an occupation only of the rich.
Peace,
~VOW
Upvote
0
Hold on, so you're saying that a whole realm of the Spirit world just *blink* stoped existing?? can you give scriptural or historical proof that it no longer exists?
Tell me, if I being a believer die with unrepented sin, what happens?
Upvote
0
Br. If you accept Christ as your Savior, all of your sins are forgiven. Yes, you will be able to repent if you die, but your sin was already taken care of on the cross. Remember, Jesus became sin so that we may live.
Again, here is what I believe about Abraham's Bosom.
Following His crucifixion and prior to His resurrection, Jesus descended to a place in the heart of the earth known as Hades (New Testament) or Sheol (Old Testament). At that time, there were two areas in Hades. One area was known as Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) and the other area was the area of the unsaved (Luke 16: 19-26). It was to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise), where Old Testament saints (people of faith in God) were held captive awaiting atonement of their sin debt, that Jesus descended. He went there to proclaim victory over sin and death on the cross of Calvary as the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world (1 Peter 4:6). When He ascended to heaven forty days after His resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10; Acts 1:9-11), Jesus took these Old Testament saints (those held captive in Abraham's Bosom: Paradise) to heaven with Him (Ephesians 4:8). Paradise is now in heaven. Jesus did not go into the area of the unrighteous when He descended to Hades; only into the area of the righteous.
I hope the verses in here help out.
God Bless
Daniel
Again, here is what I believe about Abraham's Bosom.
Following His crucifixion and prior to His resurrection, Jesus descended to a place in the heart of the earth known as Hades (New Testament) or Sheol (Old Testament). At that time, there were two areas in Hades. One area was known as Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) and the other area was the area of the unsaved (Luke 16: 19-26). It was to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise), where Old Testament saints (people of faith in God) were held captive awaiting atonement of their sin debt, that Jesus descended. He went there to proclaim victory over sin and death on the cross of Calvary as the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world (1 Peter 4:6). When He ascended to heaven forty days after His resurrection (Matthew 28:1-10; Acts 1:9-11), Jesus took these Old Testament saints (those held captive in Abraham's Bosom: Paradise) to heaven with Him (Ephesians 4:8). Paradise is now in heaven. Jesus did not go into the area of the unrighteous when He descended to Hades; only into the area of the righteous.
I hope the verses in here help out.
God Bless
Daniel
Upvote
0
VOW
Moderator
- Feb 7, 2002
- 6,912
- 15
- 71
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
To Dan:
Believing in just the Bible is non-Scriptural.
And what did the Apostles teach from? There was no assembled "New Testament" until the fourth century.
The entire concept of "the Bible is all you need" is a totally man-made teaching, invented by Martin Luther.
Further, you must understand that the Bible is open to many, many interpretations. The verses that we have provided to you which support the teaching of Purgatory were understood in that fashion for fifteen hundred years. It was only with the Protestant Reformation that Purgatory was found to be "unScriptural," as you put it.
Purgatory doesn't PAY for sins. It in no way lessens the forgiveness we have gained through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. However, the chances are good you will die with unrepented sins upon your soul. And you are also tained by the STAIN of sins. Look at it this way: You have an engraved invitation to the Banquet of the Lamb in Eternity. Jesus Himself gave you the invitation, and you DO have a seat in Heaven.
However, when you die, you are still soiled with remnants of this life. Earth is a sinful place, and even though we are inheritors of Heaven, we have some of the dust clinging to us. God will not permit any sin to be in His presence. We are "dirty." Purgatory cleanses us of any remaining stains we may have upon us, so we are fit to be in the presence of God.
It's like a little kid called in from playing outside to sit at a big holiday feast with all the relatives. The kid has to go to the bathroom first to wash his face and hands, so he is presentable at the table.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul likens this to being purified by fire. Our sins are the sticks and straw and wood, and they will be burned away, leaving only the precious metals which comprise our souls.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
Believing in just the Bible is non-Scriptural.
And what did the Apostles teach from? There was no assembled "New Testament" until the fourth century.
The entire concept of "the Bible is all you need" is a totally man-made teaching, invented by Martin Luther.
Further, you must understand that the Bible is open to many, many interpretations. The verses that we have provided to you which support the teaching of Purgatory were understood in that fashion for fifteen hundred years. It was only with the Protestant Reformation that Purgatory was found to be "unScriptural," as you put it.
Purgatory doesn't PAY for sins. It in no way lessens the forgiveness we have gained through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. However, the chances are good you will die with unrepented sins upon your soul. And you are also tained by the STAIN of sins. Look at it this way: You have an engraved invitation to the Banquet of the Lamb in Eternity. Jesus Himself gave you the invitation, and you DO have a seat in Heaven.
However, when you die, you are still soiled with remnants of this life. Earth is a sinful place, and even though we are inheritors of Heaven, we have some of the dust clinging to us. God will not permit any sin to be in His presence. We are "dirty." Purgatory cleanses us of any remaining stains we may have upon us, so we are fit to be in the presence of God.
It's like a little kid called in from playing outside to sit at a big holiday feast with all the relatives. The kid has to go to the bathroom first to wash his face and hands, so he is presentable at the table.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul likens this to being purified by fire. Our sins are the sticks and straw and wood, and they will be burned away, leaving only the precious metals which comprise our souls.
Peace be with you,
~VOW
Upvote
0
Hoonbaba
Catholic Preterist
Amen! But Christ calls us to remain in him (John 15:1-5), since if we don't, then we're not bearing fruit...which also means believers would be cut off (John 15:6). Ever wonder why Paul says to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling? (Phil 2:12)
Because salvation wasn't only a past event (Eph 2:8)
It's a present reality (1 Cor 1:18)
And a future reality (Mk 13:13, Rom 13:11, Heb 9:28)
So catholics teach that santification and justification go hand in hand.
-Jason
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Many theologians would agree, others would not. I do not believe the Church has officially stated her opinion on the matter, as she has never said whether Purgatory is a place or a state, for certain.
God Bless,
Neal
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
