Does God grant faith, repentance and belief? Or does man do it on his own?

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CmRoddy

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Does God grant faith, repentance and belief? Or does man do it on his own?

This is a big subject that needs to be addressed. Some will say that God is the one who grants salvation to His people and others say that God made people savable but it is up to the individual person to choose. Could the Calvinist view be correct? Is it possible that God only grants repentance and faith to some and not others? Or is the Arminian view of the autonomy of man correct? Well, let’s look at some Scripture to figure this out.

Some Arminians point to Romans 4:5 and they say that Abraham was the one who believed (once again exalting man). They will say that his belief was "counted to him as righteousness before God. Well, we wholeheartedly agree because that is what Romans 4:5 says. But is it safe to assume that Abraham believed as a result of his own will or was it God working in him? The Arminian might also point to verses like “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name” (John 1:12), "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15), and “So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12). But do these really mean that man chooses out of his own free will? Do these (and others used by Arminians) teach that God gives people the choice? As Calvin said, "Interpret Scripture with Scripture” and that is exactly what we should do.

For now, let’s assume that it was Abraham's work. If you read Genesis, you could possibly come to that conclusion. But, if one keeps on reading through the Bible, one will find a whole different meaning. One gets to 2 Chronicles 30:6-12 and you see that God, through Hezekiah, was calling the people to repentance and to "return to the LORD God... that He may return to you." Let's look at the passage.

2 Chronicles 30:6-12 (NASB)

6The couriers went throughout all Israel and Judah with the letters from the hand of the king and his princes, even according to the command of the king, saying, "O sons of Israel, return to the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, that He may return to those of you who escaped and are left from the hand of the kings of Assyria.
7"Do not be like your fathers and your brothers, who were unfaithful to the LORD God of their fathers, so that He made them a horror, as you see.
8"Now do not stiffen your neck like your fathers, but yield to the LORD and enter His sanctuary which He has consecrated forever, and serve the LORD your God, that His burning anger may turn away from you.
9"For if you return to the LORD, your brothers and your sons will find compassion before those who led them captive and will return to this land For the LORD your God is gracious and compassionate, and will not turn His face away from you if you return to Him."
10So the couriers passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them.
11Nevertheless some men of Asher, Manasseh and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.
12The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD.

So the people in v. 10 " laughed them to scorn and mocked them" and they did not repent. However, we see in v. 11 that "some men" humbled themselves and went to Jerusalem. But v. 12 changes everything. Look at what it says closely; "The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD."

The "also" in v. 12 clues us in to the fact that God's hand was what enabled the men in v. 11 to return to Jerusalem. There is no denying that. So we see in the OT that God commands something from His people, but He also grants what He commands. We see conditional statements being made all the time, but based on this verse and others, one should never assume that God commands something from us and leaves us to fulfill that command.

Now, one may say "But that is only one passage." Actually, we don't believe it is. In fact, we think there are a lot more that teach that God is the one who grants repentance and faith in people. Let's look at a few of them.

Deuteronomy 5:29 (NASB)
'Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!

Now, the literal translation says "who will give them such a heart". We again see that the heart will be given to them in order to fear God and keep His commandments.

Deuteronomy 29:2-4 (NASB)
2And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land;
3the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders.
4"Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.

V. 4 is the key in this passage. Moses is talking to the people of Israel and says that God “has not given you [them] a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." Once again, the ability to know, see, and hear are given by God.

Deuteronomy 30:5-6 (NASB)
5"The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.
6"Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

V. 5 talks about God bringing Israel into the land of their fathers. However, v. 6 is key. It says that God will be the one to circumcise their hearts "to love the LORD your [their] God." Again we see God commanding what He will and granting what He commands.

Jeremiah 32:38-40 (NASB)
38"They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40"I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

Here we have a tremendous passage on this subject. V. 38 is something God will accomplish, not simply make possible. It doesn't say "I will probably be their God." No, it says "Theyshall be my people, and I will be their God." V. 39 is another example of God "giving them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me [God] always." For what reason? "For their own good." Now v. 40 says that God will make an everlasting covenant with them and God "will put the fear" of Him in their hearts "so that they will not turn away" from Him. Once again we see God commanding what He wills and granting what He commands.

Ezekiel 11:19-20 (NASB)
19"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
20that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.

Both verses speak clearly on this subject. God is saying in v. 19 that He "will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them." This is referring to regeneration. God takes out the "heart of stone" and gives them a "heart of flesh." What is the reason for doing this? What will result? Well, v. 20 tells us "that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them." Walking in the statutes of God and keeping His commands are the result of being given a heart of flesh, not the other way around. And we also see the same thing in v. 20 here as in the Jeremiah passage above. "They will be My people, and I shall be their God." It doesn't say "maybe" or "possibly" or "perhaps".
 

CmRoddy

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Ephesians. 2:8-9 (ESV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
By grace refers to God's favor upon those who have transgressed his law and sinned against him. But grace may also be understood as a “power” in these verses. God's grace not only offers salvation but also secures it. Saved refers to deliverance from God's wrath at the final judgment (Rom. 5:9); “by grace you have been saved” is repeated from Eph. 2:5 for emphasis. The verb form for “have been saved” (Gk. sesōsmenoi, perfect tense) communicates that the Christian's salvation is fully secured.
through faith. Faith is a confident trust and reliance upon Christ Jesus and is the only means by which one can obtain salvation.
this. The Greek pronoun is neuter, while “grace” and “faith” are feminine. Accordingly, “this” points to the whole process of “salvation by grace through faith” as being the gift of God and not something that we can accomplish ourselves. This use of the neuter pronoun to take in the whole of a complex idea is quite common in Greek (e.g., 6:1); its use here makes it clear that faith, no less than grace, is a gift of God. Salvation, therefore, in every respect, is not your own doing.
Source: ESV Study Bible

Any Greek scholar can see this.

Let me give you another source. This one from The Potter's Freedom by James White.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
"The Greek term for "that" is the neuter singular demonstrative pronoun. The basic rule of thumb is to look for a singular neuter noun in the immediate context as the antecedent of the pronoun. Yet, there are no neuter singular nouns in the first phrase of Ephesians 2:8. "Grace" is feminine singular; "have been saved" is a masculine participle; "faith" is feminine singular. So to what does "that" refer?
The simple answer is: the entirety of the phrase "for by grace you have been saved through faith." It is good Greek grammar to use a neutral pronoun to "wrap up" a phrase or a series of thoughts into a single whole. Paul's point is that the entirety of the work of salvation does not find its basis in men but in God: true salvation is the gift of God, not a work of man. All of it is free, all of it is divine, not human" (White 295-296).
As can be plainly seen based on the Greek grammar, the entire first part of Eph. 2:8 is a gift. The grace and salvation are just as much a gift as the faith that man practices.

1 John 2:27 (NASB)
27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

We see here that those who "abide in Him" have been taught by God. If you want to claim that God "teaches everyone" (which the Arminian would have to do in order to be consistent), then everyone would be saved and abide in Him. Why? Because John 6:45 tells us that "everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me [Jesus]." So again, God anoints and teaches those whom He wishes.

Romans 12:3 (NASB)
3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

This is a pretty straight forward passage. Why do people believe? Because "God has allotted to each a measure of faith." Now, if the Arminian wants to say that a) God truly does desire all men to be saved (which I will do another short writing about) and b) allotted everyone with a measure of faith (which the Arminian would have to affirm if he want to be consistent) then does that mean that God doesn't know how much faith to allot a particular person in order to save them? That would logically be the case if the two premises were true. But of course, there are those who won't be saved. So the only logical conclusion is that God has not allotted each person a measure of faith, only those whom He chose from the foundation of the earth (Eph. 1:4) and appointed to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13).

Philippians 1:29 (NASB)
29For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Yet another very straight forward passage saying God is the one who grants people to believe in Him; and not only to believe, but to suffer for Christ.

John 10:24-28 (NASB)
24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

This passage is also very powerful and straight forward. The people are asking Jesus if He is truly the Messiah and He tells them "I told you, and you do not believe." Well, why don't they believe? V. 26 tells us it is because they are not of His sheep. Notice what it doesn't say; it in no way says "You aren't of my sheep because you don't believe." It says that they don't believe because they are not of His sheep. Why is this important? Because Jesus' sheep hear His voice and follow Him, as v. 27 says.

How does one become a sheep? Well, if you continue reading, v. 29 says "My Father, how has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Who is the "them" that is given to Christ? The sheep. John 6:37 tells us that all that the Father gives to Jesus will go to Him. Only those who are given to Christ believe.

2 Timothy 2:24-26 (NASB)
24The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Here we have a combination between those whom God calls to preach the gospel and those whom God is reaching. I know I have seen people say "If people are predestined, then why should we do evangelism?" Well, this passage tells us. We are to be "patient when wronged" and "able to teach." We are to have gentleness when correcting. Why should we do all of this? So that God may perhaps "grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth." We see, yet again, that God is the one granting repentance. They don't repent apart from God granting it.

Hebrews 12:2 (NASB)
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

This tremendous passage speaks volumes in just a few clauses. It clearly teaches that Jesus is the "author" and He is also the "perfecter" of faith. Now, how can Jesus be both the author and the perfecter of faith if some are damned? One has to either believe that all will eventually be saved (Universalism) or that Jesus is only the author and perfecter of the faith of those whom He chose from the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4) and appointed to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13).

1 John 5:1 (NASB)
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

One thing I want to note about this passage is that the literal Greek translation says "of God he hath been begotten" or "has been born of God." This is saying, given the grammatical structure, that those who believe have been born of God. It doesn't say that they are born of God (born again) because they believe. Also the "has been born" is in the perfect tense in the Greek, meaning that it was a past event that continues on into the present. Note again, it doesn't say that they are born again because they believe, they believe because they are born again.

Now, a test for consistency would be to read 1 John 2:2. It says: "If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him."

This uses the exact same grammatical structure as 1 John 5:1. If one were to hold that believing results in being born of God, then one would have to be consistent and say that works also result in being born of God. Of course, any orthodox protestant would deny this outright. But why do so many deny the reality of 1 John 5:1? I think it is because they simply don't want the text to say what they don't like.

Acts 13:48 (NASB)
48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

This passage also speaks volumes. Notice what it says "and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." It doesn't say "As many as believed have been appointed to eternal life", which is what the Arminian interpretation would have to believe. Luke could have gone without saying the last part of the sentence. He could have gone without saying "as many as had been appointed," but the inspired writer penned these words for a reason, and that is to tell us that those who have been appointed believe.

1 Corinthians 1:22-24 (NASB)
22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

This is another great passage of discussion for this subject. Look at what it says in v. 22. The Jews "ask for signs and the Greeks search for wisdom." What is the result? V. 23 tells us that Christ crucified is a "stumbling block" to the Jews and "foolishness" to the Gentiles. However, to those "who are called", it becomes the "power of God and the wisdom God." Now if the Arminian wants to say that "all are called in the same way" (which he would have to say in order to stay consistent) then he would have a big problem because Romans 8:30 doesn't allow those who are called to not be saved. It says " and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." This is an unbroken chain. So are all called? No, and those who are called will be justified and they will be glorified.

In conclusion, one should never assume that when the Bible says that someone believed that person believed on his own. You should never assume that God commands repentance and just leaves people to fulfill that command.

As St. Augustine said, "Lord, command what You will; but grant what You command."
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Let me use this illustration....


My older sister and her husband had their first child - a beautiful little girl - six months ago. I was at the hospital when she was born and saw her when she was less than 10 minutes old. My action was as it always is at the sight of a newborn: one of pure amazement. Such seems like one of the most amazing miracles of God!!! To think, God made this - in all it's amazing, incredible, mind-boggling complexity - beautiful and awesome to behold! How else could ANYONE respond but with praise and thanksgiving to the God of love and creation who did all this?! What else could ANYTHING think but that this is GOD'S doing, GOD'S gift?! And did God plan and will all this? I firmly believe the answer is yes - this is all apart of His GRACE.


Now, all that said and firmly believed, does that mean that Mom and Dad did nothing, that God placed the fetus in my sis' womb by fiat, feed the developing child with nothing coming from Mom, and then took it out by fiat and handed the precious gift to the nurse? No. Most of us over the age of 10 anyway know what my sis and brother-in-law did. But we affirm that GOD made it "work" (LOL).

We are not justified by grace alone, we are justified by the grace of God in Christ through faith in Christ. Although God CAN (always silly to argue over what God CAN do) create faith by fiat, I don't know of a case where He has done that. God uses the means of grace. In the BROADEST sense, this is ANYTHING which God might/can use for His purposes. There is an interplay of what is DONE by people (both Christians and the one who, by God's grace, WILL be a Christian). But, faith dawns! A beautiful miracle!!!!!!!! Now, whom do we thank for that miracle? Well, I suppose we could say a word of thanks to her parents and grandparents, to her Sunday School teachers and pastor, but ultimately - we say thanks to God!! This is GOD'S miracle. Do we fully understand the dynamics of this? No. Do we understand exactly how the interplay happened? No. Do we need to understand these things? No. What matters is this and this alone: GOD performed a miracle. A miracle of LIFE. We no more "cause" ourselves to be born again than we caused ourselves to be born the first time. LIFE is always the miracle of God. A miracle God performs through MEANS.





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CmRoddy

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Let me use this illustration....

My older sister and her husband had their first child - a beautiful little girl - six months ago. I was at the hospital when she was born and saw her when she was less than 10 minutes old. My action was as it always is at the sight of a newborn: one of pure amazement. Such seems like one of the most amazing miracles of God!!! To think, God made this - in all it's amazing, incredible, mind-boggling complexity - beautiful and awesome to behold! How else could ANYONE respond but with praise and thanksgiving to the God of love and creation who did all this?! What else could ANYTHING think but that this is GOD'S doing, GOD'S gift?! And did God plan and will all this? I firmly believe the answer is yes - this is all apart of His GRACE.


Now, all that said and firmly believed, does that mean that Mom and Dad did nothing, that God placed the fetus in my sis' womb by fiat, feed the developing child with nothing coming from Mom, and then took it out by fiat and handed the precious gift to the nurse? No. Most of us over the age of 10 anyway know what my sis and brother-in-law did. But we affirm that GOD made it "work" (LOL).

We are not justified by grace alone, we are justified by the grace of God in Christ through faith in Christ. Although God CAN (always silly to argue over what God CAN do) create faith by fiat, I don't know of a case where He has done that. God uses the means of grace. In the BROADEST sense, this is ANYTHING which God might/can use for His purposes. There is an interplay of what is DONE by people (both Christians and the one who, by God's grace, WILL be a Christian). But, faith dawns! A beautiful miracle!!!!!!!! Now, whom do we thank for that miracle? Well, I suppose we could say a word of thanks to her parents and grandparents, to her Sunday School teachers and pastor, but ultimately - we say thanks to God!! This is GOD'S miracle. Do we fully understand the dynamics of this? No. Do we understand exactly how the interplay happened? No. Do we need to understand these things? No. What matters is this and this alone: GOD performed a miracle. A miracle of LIFE. We no more "cause" ourselves to be born again than we caused ourselves to be born the first time. LIFE is always the miracle of God. A miracle God performs through MEANS.

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So, all I saw in this whole post was synergism. You seem to be confused. First you say that it was a work of God and people, but then you say it was only a work of God...?

I understand where your argument is coming from, but the fact of the matter is that the saving faith that people have is the result of God changing their hearts. Yes, the person acts upon that faith and believes onto salvation, but they would never have done so if God had not changed their heart and given them a new spirit.

Why? Because men are haters of God (Rom. 1:30), we exchange the glory of God for other things (Rom. 1:25), we do not honor Him as God (Rom. 1:21), we suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom. 1:18), we encourage others to do evils against God (Rom. 1:32), we are hostile toward God and do not and cannot submit to God (Rom. 8:7-8), we are enemies of God (Rom. 5:20), not one man seeks for God or is righteous (Rom. 3:11-12), men love darkness rather than light (John 3:19), the natural man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), we are dead in our sin (Eph. 2:1), from the heart of man comes evil thoughts (Mark 7:21), we are slaves to sin (Rom. 6:20), we are children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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Does God grant faith, repentance and belief? Or does man do it on his own?

I don't think these questions take into account second causes. What is the nature of faith? What is the nature of repentance?

Faith means to trust in someone or something. Repentance means to turn from one's ways. God works in and through individuals in order to bring them to a point of repentance and trust in Jesus.

This is a big subject that needs to be addressed. Some will say that God is the one who grants salvation to His people and others say that God made people savable but it is up to the individual person to choose. Could the Calvinist view be correct? Is it possible that God only grants repentance and faith to some and not others? Or is the Arminian view of the autonomy of man correct? Well, let’s look at some Scripture to figure this out.

Calvinists, Arminians and other Evangelicals all hold that God "grants salvation" - they all say salvation is by grace through faith. Arminians are not heretics or non-christians. They stand within the circle of historic Christianity.

Calvinists hold to both God's sovereignty and human responsibility. If a person is responsible, then that implies autonomy and choices. God works through second causes. The nature of repentance and faith comes down to the individual - it is the individual who repents of their sins and trusts in Jesus.

Some Arminians point to Romans 4:5 and they say that Abraham was the one who believed (once again exalting man). They will say that his belief was "counted to him as righteousness before God. Well, we wholeheartedly agree because that is what Romans 4:5 says. But is it safe to assume that Abraham believed as a result of his own will or was it God working in him?

Your first sentence is in conflict with your last sentence. Does "God working in him" mean Abraham believed or not?

What is the difference between "Abraham believed" and "God working in him?"

Rom 4:3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

I'm sure you agree that Rom 4:3 does not "exalt man." It also does not say God forced Abraham to believe, nor does it say that God was obligated to declare Abraham righteous.


LDG
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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So, all I saw in this whole post was synergism. You seem to be confused. First you say that it was a work of God and people, but then you say it was only a work of God...?

Then you "read" it wrongly. Try again, lol.

No, I said NOTHING about it being God and OUR work. I said God normally works through means - and the exact dynamics of such isn't explained to us.



I understand where your argument is coming from, but the fact of the matter is that the saving faith that people have is the result of God changing their hearts. Yes, the person acts upon that faith and believes onto salvation, but they would never have done so if God had not changed their heart and given them a new spirit.

... exactly as I said.






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the particular baptist

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Then you "read" it wrongly. Try again, lol.

No, I said NOTHING about it being God and OUR work. I said God normally works through means - and the exact dynamics of such isn't explained to us.

I always thought scripture teaches us that the means is the preaching of the Gospel. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, no ?
 
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JDS

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There is a blind spot that causes the Calvinist driver to drive recklessly and swerve into other doctrines. This blind spot is the regeneration of men since the resurrection only. They constantly quote verses having to do with the replacing of the heart of stone with the heart of flesh from passages like Ez 16 without taking into account they are actually quoting a prophecy that was fulfilled by the sending of the Spirit from heaven in Acts 2. Before that there was no one who possessed the Holy Spirit as an integral part of their being. This is what it means to be born again and it is a new covenant promise. When one is born again, he becomes a child of God. This is the reason that no man between Adam and Christ was called a son of God and Jesu was careful to not call the disciples sons in John 15. He called them servants and friends but it was not until after his resurrection and theu had recieved his Spirit that they were called sons of God. Read Ro 8 here and 1 Jn 3:1,2. Adam began as the son of God and lost the Spirit by sinning (He was not born again, he was created) and Jesus Christ makes it possible to restore the image of God by washing away the sin in his blood of everyone who will come to him in faith.If we could just resolve this doctrine with them we would acieve a great milestone and there would be hope for more clarification.
 
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CmRoddy

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There is a blind spot that causes the Calvinist driver to drive recklessly and swerve into other doctrines. This blind spot is the regeneration of men since the resurrection only. They constantly quote verses having to do with the replacing of the heart of stone with the heart of flesh from passages like Ez 16 without taking into account they are actually quoting a prophecy that was fulfilled by the sending of the Spirit from heaven in Acts 2. Before that there was no one who possessed the Holy Spirit as an integral part of their being. This is what it means to be born again and it is a new covenant promise. When one is born again, he becomes a child of God. This is the reason that no man between Adam and Christ was called a son of God and Jesu was careful to not call the disciples sons in John 15. He called them servants and friends but it was not until after his resurrection and theu had recieved his Spirit that they were called sons of God. Read Ro 8 here and 1 Jn 3:1,2. Adam began as the son of God and lost the Spirit by sinning (He was not born again, he was created) and Jesus Christ makes it possible to restore the image of God by washing away the sin in his blood of everyone who will come to him in faith.If we could just resolve this doctrine with them we would acieve a great milestone and there would be hope for more clarification.

And... this does nothing to disprove my point at all.

You have not interacted or dealt with the passages presented at all. They clearly tell us that those who believe do so solely because God enabled and granted them to do so.
 
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JDS

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And... this does nothing to disprove my point at all.

You have not interacted or dealt with the passages presented at all. They clearly tell us that those who believe do so solely because God enabled and granted them to do so.


I wasn't addressing your comments! You have a cheering section. You don't need me! Besides, LDG had some comments about them.
 
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JDS

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The gospel of God is the good news/glad tidings that THE faith has come in the person of the Spirit of Jesus Christ and is available , not just to the Jews, but to the whole world. It is a precise gospel dedicated and delivered through the apostle Paul. It is the theme, clearly stated, in Rom 1. It is a phrase that is used 7 times in scripture and 3 times it is call by Paul "my gospel". I would remind everyone here that God's words are inspired and nouns and pronouns are chosen by God and he makes no mistakes. One must examine every word. The book of Ephesians is the mystery of Christ revealed through the apostle Paul AFTER the Jews had rejected their Messiah and God had included the gentiles for the purpose ogf provoking the Jews to jealousy. Predestination, the elect remnant, election and sanctification of the Spirit are all a matter of this gospel of God and hidden mystery of Christ. I will quote a few verses without commentary from the only English translation that carries the authority of God, the KJV. I will expound on this more as needed.

.Ro 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you–ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
 
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beloved57

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Some Arminians point to Romans 4:5 and they say that Abraham was the one who believed (once again exalting man). They will say that his belief was "counted to him as righteousness before God. Well, we wholeheartedly agree because that is what Romans 4:5 says.

You must be careful here, because if not, you fall into the same trap as the arminaian..what does rom 4: 5 teach ?

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

abrahams faith wasnt counted as righteousness, but the object of his faith was, that is the Lord Jesus christ our righteousness..

God given faith revealed to him that he was justified by the righteousness of another..and he believed it..for God freely justifieth the ungodly based upon their election and Jesus christ imputed righteousness..
 
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beloved57

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Yes, Faith and Repentance comes with the Love Gift of Jesus christ to Gods elect..rom 8:


31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

All things pertaining to a life of Godliness as peter expresses it:

2 pet 1:

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Thats included, godly sorrow..2 cor 7:

Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry[aorist passive] after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Now, how else can one get godly sorrow or manifest it, save they had already been made godly by regeneration ?

a ungodly man cant manifest godly sorrow, for the flesh cant produce such things..

And faith is given to the elect to believe..phil 1:

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

In giving Jesus, all salvation is ensured to the elect to whom He was given..

everything is ensured for complete experiential salvation in this life and the one to come..
 
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heymikey80

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I don't think these questions take into account second causes. What is the nature of faith? What is the nature of repentance?

Faith means to trust in someone or something. Repentance means to turn from one's ways. God works in and through individuals in order to bring them to a point of repentance and trust in Jesus.
I think the "on his own" tends to cover for this. Admittedly, if someone didn't think about second causes or attribute human will as an independent cause, they might miss that. And some have missed that.
Calvinists, Arminians and other Evangelicals all hold that God "grants salvation" - they all say salvation is by grace through faith. Arminians are not heretics or non-christians. They stand within the circle of historic Christianity.
I think the discussion has spun far enough out recently here that we're not talking Arminius any more. we're talking Pelagius. If there's unity over this point, I'd be interested to see the unity expressed in something other than opposition to this point. I know you're not expressing opposition, and this is often a red herring for Arminian argumentation, especially Wesleyan.

On the other hand, there's another red herring: Pelagians using an Arminian label.
Calvinists hold to both God's sovereignty and human responsibility. If a person is responsible, then that implies autonomy and choices. God works through second causes. The nature of repentance and faith comes down to the individual - it is the individual who repents of their sins and trusts in Jesus.
Mmm, here, not so sure. Sure, God works through second causes. But the cause of repentance and faith doesn't come from the individual, left to himself.

Arminians, granted, either operate on a pendulum-balance or on prevenient grace, leaving the human will free and capable of good. And generally Arminians have expressed this as a universal grace. With Calvinists this operates differently, and the thought of using "cause" to identify the operation would probably not be accurate.
 
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