Discussion on YHWH

The Gregorian · Apr 27, 2009

Most people know that God HAS a divine name, the tetragrammeton, YHWH. It occurs thousands of times in the hebrew scriptures, and is usually translated as LORD. However, in translations such as the King James, it translates four times as "Jehovah."

... Now, I'm a JW... and I still get people who have studied the bible for years say "Oh, you're a Jehovah?" ... that's like walking up to a non-denominational Christian and say "Oh, hey, you're a Jesus?"

... now, I know this isn't a place to debate doctrine, but I think this to be a tame enough subject that it should be seen as fellowship:

I'll assume YHWH is translated as "LORD" out of respect, not to use his name in vain... however, in the times it is used, what pronounciation do you prefer, and why? Jehovah vs. Yahweh vs. (insert a better option here).

... keep in mind, even monty python pronounces it "Jehovah"
YouTube - monty python stoning clip

Or, do you think that the name SHOULD be just ignored entirely and it shouldn't matter how it's pronounced? Regardless of any doctrinal differences... how does the rest of Christianity view the name of the Father? And why do so many blood people have no idea what the name of their own God is? Honestly, I've had baptised Christians ask me "What's a Jehovah?" ... and they're... baptised? And they weren't kidding?

(For the record, if you want to abbreviate JW... stick with "You're a witness?" Not "You're a Jehovah?" Makes much more sense.)

k2svpete · Apr 27, 2009

Abbreviate JW? People must be lazy to try and shorten that!

As far as names go, any of the options above are appropriate but context would give the guide as to what is most appropriate.

The Gregorian · Apr 27, 2009

k2svpete said:
Abbreviate JW? People must be lazy to try and shorten that!

Well, I'm a "Jehovah's Witness" ... in text, shortens to JW just fine, but it sounds strange to say "JW" verbally. So, people often shorten it to "You're a Jehovah" instead of "you're a witness." It'd be like shortening mainstream Christianity to "You're a Jesus." It's just something that got me thinking about what others think of the divine name... whether it should be used or not. Why so many Christians don't know "what a Jehovah is."

k2svpete · Apr 27, 2009

I use 'JW' verbally, as do many others I know.

Hentenza · Apr 27, 2009

Mod Hat On

Thread moved to UT.

Ichabod 2 · Apr 29, 2009

In biblical usage there is much in a name! In Bible times names were chosen with great care and were frequently given by prophetic utterance or under divine inspiration so that the names actually revealed the nature, character, attributes, and destiny of the person, and thus carried a message to all who spoke or used that name.

In a very real sense the "name" of a being is regarded as being a real part of the person. In a certain sense there can be no separation whatsoever between a man’s name and what he is as a person. In the scriptures the innermost being of a man is expressed in his name. That is why Esau declares of his conniving brother, "Is he not rightly named Jacob (supplanter)? For he has supplanted me these two times" (Gen. 27:36). After wresting with the angel of the Lord, however, Jacob underwent a change of attitude and alteration of character which was accompanied by a change of name. Having seen the "face" or presence of God he was no longer the same man that he had been before his encounter with the Lord. Since name and character are absolutely identified there had to be a change in Jacob’s appellation! The angel of the Lord, therefore, said, "Thy name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel (Prince): for as a prince thou hast power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (Gen. 32:28).

"I will set him on high because he has known my name" (Ps. 91:14). To know His name is to become, in union with Him, the name-nature of God in every hour and in every way. To know His name is to enter in to the pure inner life of God, and exude His nature, His life, His character and all else that He is. To know means more than mere intellectual understanding or carnal knowledge. It means "intimate union" as when "Adam knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain" (Gen. 4:1). Some people think because they use or pronounce the names Yahweh, El Elyon, Yahshua, and all the other Hebrew names they have dug out of the concordance, that this truly honors the Lord, makes the use of these names magical, procures favor with God, or is a mark of spirituality. People without a revelation from the Lord, or participation in His life, are disposed to go back and use the "letter" of that given to past generations of men of God. Some even become so radical that they re-write the Bible, inserting the Hebrew names in the New Testament text, although they do not appear in the ancient manuscripts!

The Psalmist says, "And they that know Thy name shall put their trust in Thee" (Ps. 9:10). The message is clear: "They that have experienced the inworking, the development and formation of Thy nature will confidently trust in Thee." If this has not been your experience yet — that is, the inworking and formation of His nature within — then you do not yet know the name of the Lord though you may be zealous to consistently use the Hebrew words Yahweh, Yahshua, and all the other name forms in the Old Testament.

Again the scripture declares that "the name of Yahweh is a strong tower." There are many precious revelations coming forth these days concerning the names of God, and the depth of meaning therein. Some immediately get caught up in the externals, with an emphasis on the mechanics — the spelling, syllables, and pronunciation of the names — dealing with the outward or "letter" of the Word. But it is the "letter" that killeth — that is, there is no life in those things! They strike no chord deep in my spirit. In fact, they leave me somewhat cold and uninspired. The "spirit" of the Word gives life! The spirit is the substance, the essence and reality of His nature that the outward name reveals. As Ray Prinzing has so aptly written, "Of this we are certain, there is a walk that is ‘not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life’ (II Cor. 3:6). When certain truths are set down as a doctrine, and one receives only the letter thereof, it does not serve to gender life within, it only becomes one more burden to bear, adding to the load of traditions and commandments. But when the Spirit of God illumines the inner man, quickens the heart to receive that Word of Life within, it is not some doctrine to contend for, but it is a LIFE TO BE LIVED."

So the Lord gives this promise to the overcomer: "I will write upon him the name of my God." Is God going to literally write upon the overcomer the Hebrew letters of the name Y-A-H-W-E-H? Is this some form of tattoo we are to have burned into our flesh? Certainly not! Realizing the awesome glory and power that was given to Moses by the Lord when He proclaimed His name to him, we can well understand the significance of "the name of my God" which is to be written upon all who overcome. It is certainly not the Hebrew name of the Father, nor is it a new spiritual name that some are now using for themselves. Rather, it is the impartation of HIS CHARACTER AND AUTHORITY! Let us clearly understand the deep truth of God’s Word! When He proclaims or writes His name upon His called and chosen elect, He is in fact imparting to them His honor, His authority, His nature, and His power. It has nothing to do with letters of the alphabet or phonics!

Names of God

ELOHIM: (GOD) Ex.33:34
God’s goodness, his nature (name, character, authority)

YAHVAH, YAHVAH-EL of compassion and favor, Slow to anger & abundant in loving kindness & faithfulness: keeping loving kindness to a thousand generations, forgetting iniquity and transgression and sin, though leave not utterly unpunished. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon sons’ sons, unto a third & forth generation. Ex. 34: Rotherham

The 1st four names of God are revealed in Genesis
1st chapter only God (Elohim) is used. This is the name we should know above all other names.

ELOHIM Heb. To “swear”, It describes one who stands in a covenant-relationship ratified by an oath.

Judgment: Every time God judges a matter it was not from anger as humans know it, but from zeal to show forth His righteousness. Yes deprived those wicked people of life on this earth for it is His right to withdraw that life

God is not only teaching His Word but also His Nature.

Jehovah T’ Sidkinu, The LORD OUR Righteousness (Jer. 23:6)
Jehovah M’ Kaddesh, The Lord Who Sanctifies (Lev. 20:7)
Jehovah Shalom, The Lord our peace (Judges 6:24)
Jehovah Shammah, The Lord our ever Present God (Ezek. 48:35)
Jehovah Rapha, The Lord our Healer (Ezek. 15:26)
Jehovah Jireh, The Lord our provider (Gen. 22:14)
Jehovah Nissi, The Lord our Victory (Ex. 17:15)
Jehovah Rohi, The Lord our Shepherd (Ps. 23:1)
Jehovah T’sur, The Lord our Strength (Ps. 19:14)

cyberlizard · Apr 29, 2009

i always pronounce the tetragrammaton as HaShem in general conversation, though I write it as YHVH. In prayer I sometimes use HaShem and sometimes Adonai, but mostly HaShem.

I find reading the new testament that the number of circumlocutions used to avoid its usage is remarkable...

Steve

p.s. I do not think the early church tended to pronounce the tetragrammaton either, but I base this belief on second temple culture, convention and the fact that endless disagreements are recorded in the gospels between Jesus and elements with pharasaism but not of these arguments appears to be about the pronunciation of the divine name.

The Gregorian · Apr 30, 2009

Mods? Why was this moved? The name YHWH is in "orthodox" bibles such as the King James version, asking why it's not used in many churches, or how other churches pronounce it isn't exactly blasphemous.

RebYosef · Apr 30, 2009

The Gregorian said:
And why do so many blood people have no idea what the name of their own G-d is? Honestly, I've had baptised Christians ask me "What's a J---v-h?" ... and they're... baptised? And they weren't kidding?

This should not shock you. The "J" sound is nearly non-existant in Ancient Northwestern Semetic languages, even in the loanwords from other cultures. The Scholarship about this has been out for some time.

Ichabod 2 said:
The 1st four names of G-d are revealed in Genesis
1st chapter only G-d (Elokim) is used. This is the name we should know above all other names.

I would think this had more to do with who redacted Beresis, rather then some hidden message about what we should call HaShem.

The Gregorian · Apr 30, 2009

RebYosef said:
This should not shock you. The "J" sound is nearly non-existant in Ancient Northwestern Semetic languages, even in the loanwords from other cultures. The Scholarship about this has been out for some time.

So, should it be pronounced "Yahweh?" You see what taking out the vowels did? Now no one knows how to pronounce it! lol.

Yahweh turning into "Jehovah" isn't much different than Yeshua turning into "Jesus." Closest name would be "Joshua" ... and that still has a J. Jesus comes from a translation of a translation. Aramaic->greek->english it makes sense... but aramaic->english, Yeshua should be "Joshua." But then people would get confused with O.T. Joshua.

How would you directly translate YHWH into an english pronounciation?

I don't know a lot about the hebrew language, but I know yiddish is very similar to German, which I speak some of. In German J makes a "y" sound... so translating YHWH could make sence as "Jehovah" with a german pronounciation "Yehofah" ... but J's make different sounds in german/english/spanish... and roman characters don't exist at all in many eastern languages (middle/far eastern languages, which don't originally use roman characters.... hebrew being one of them. lol.)

The Gregorian · Apr 30, 2009

I understand not pronouncing it out of respect, however, do you believe there is no pronunciation at all? Should the pronunciation not even be known? Should it be forgotten?

Isn't HaShem just a title, similar to "lord?" If you were to read aloud psalms 83:18... would you say "That men may know that thou, who's name alone is HaShem (or adonai)..."

Would you say his name is the title? In which case, would that not be dishonest... because his NAME is YHWH... however that is to be pronounced.

RebYosef · Apr 30, 2009

The Gregorian said:
So, should it be pronounced "YHWH?" You see what taking out the vowels did? Now no one knows how to pronounce it! lol..

I will not speculate on how it should be pronounced.

YHWH turning into "JHWH" isn't much different than Yeshua turning into "Jesus."

"Yeshua" is middle Aramaic transliteration. "Jesus" is a Latin.

Closest name would be "Joshua" ... and that still has a J. Jesus comes from a translation of a translation. Aramaic->greek->english it makes sense... but aramaic->english, Yeshua should be "Joshua." But then people would get confused with O.T. Joshua.

The "J" sound comes from "Latinizing" a semetic word into a Latin based one.

How would you directly translate YHWH into an english pronounciation?

I do not.

I don't know a lot about the hebrew language, but I know yiddish is very similar to German, which I speak some of. In German J makes a "y"

Yiddish is based of High German with Hebrew characaters and about 40% Hebrew vocabulary.

sentipente · May 1, 2009

I think it is presumptuous to say that the tetragrammaton YHWH is the divine name of the Creator. At the burning bush the Creator did not introduce Moses with a name. He simply introduced Himself. Moses asked for a name because he wanted to be able to distinguish between the Egyptian deities and this supreme deity. It is interesting that he was given a name. YHWH is not a name. I AM is not a nam. I AM is a verb. YHWH is a state of being. We miss the point when we make the claim that YHWH is the name of the Creator.

2ducklow · May 1, 2009

sentipente said:
I think it is presumptuous to say that the tetragrammaton YHWH is the divine name of the Creator. At the burning bush the Creator did not introduce Moses with a name. He simply introduced Himself. Moses asked for a name because he wanted to be able to distinguish between the Egyptian deities and this supreme deity. It is interesting that he was given a name. YHWH is not a name. I AM is not a nam. I AM is a verb. YHWH is a state of being. We miss the point when we make the claim that YHWH is the name of the Creator.

this one is too easy.

[SIZE=+0](Rotherham) Exodus 6:3 I appeared, therefore, unto Abraham unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as GOD Almighty,--although, by my name Yahweh was I not made known to them; [/SIZE]

The Gregorian · May 6, 2009

RebYosef said:
I will not speculate on how it should be pronounced.

So, do you think it simply has no pronunciation? Do you think people should not be interested in what the name is? Should it be forgotten and lost further than it already is? You know most of Christianity actually thinks "YHWH" MEANS "lord?"

"Yeshua" is middle Aramaic transliteration. "Jesus" is a Latin.

Iesus is latin. "Jesus" is a transliteration of the latin transliteration. "Yeshua" is at least a direct transliteration. "Joshua" would be an appropriate translation. [/quote]

I think it is presumptuous to say that the tetragrammaton YHWH is the divine name of the Creator. At the burning bush the Creator did not introduce Moses with a name. He simply introduced Himself. Moses asked for a name because he wanted to be able to distinguish between the Egyptian deities and this supreme deity. It is interesting that he was given a name. YHWH is not a name. I AM is not a nam. I AM is a verb. YHWH is a state of being. We miss the point when we make the claim that YHWH is the name of the Creator.

I love the story of the burning bush because it shows an almost humorous/sarcastic side to God. Moses was looking for a name because he just wasn't sure "which" God he was bowing to. God replied "I'm the one who IS" or "I'm the one that actually exists!" "I am" was not a name, like you said. He was stating that he is the one who IS, unlike all the "gods" people have made up to try to avoid him.

(Which really strikes my nerve when people point to Jesus using the phrase "ego eimi" and say "See? Jesus said "I am." And that's God's name, therefore Jesus is God! ... no...)

The Gregorian · May 6, 2009

2ducklow said:
this one is too easy.

[SIZE=+0](Rotherham) Exodus 6:3 I appeared, therefore, unto Abraham unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as GOD Almighty,--although, by my name Yahweh was I not made known to them; [/SIZE]

Or the host of other verses, such as psalms 83:18... "That men may know that thou, who's name alone is YHWH"

The OT repeatedly specifically states that God's NAME is YHWH. However, specifically Psalms 83:18... usually translated as "that men may know that thou, who's name alone is the LORD" ... That's a pretty big slap in the face, no?

And... I dun wanna be the one trying to slap God in the face. He's totally got a damage shield. Like... AoE, DC 101 roll or die fort. save... and you're at an infinitely negative penalty because he's God. This guy... could pwn the ICW in one round with a natural 1... kthxbai.

(10 points to the first person nerdy enough to understand all of that. 20 points if you get the ICW reference)

Sorry... I'll go to bed now.

sentipente · May 6, 2009

2ducklow said:
this one is too easy.

[SIZE=+0](Rotherham) Exodus 6:3 I appeared, therefore, unto Abraham unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as GOD Almighty,--although, by my name Yahweh was I not made known to them; [/SIZE]

Do you have His sworn statement that he actually said that? Do you believe everything you read as being factual? Let's do just little bit of independent thinking.

The Gregorian · May 6, 2009

sentipente said:
Do you have His sworn statement that he actually said that? Do you believe everything you read as being factual? Let's do just little bit of independent thinking.

It's in the bible, and we believe the bible to be unchanged. Different translations may word things more or less accurately, and it can be misinterpreted... but we have no choice but to believe the bible has remained overall intact. Is there any reason to believe the texts have all been altered? ... And that it would be consistantly altered throughout the OT where people repeatedly say "Your name is YHWH"

yeshuachrist · May 6, 2009

i think before moses, GOD was only known as GOD to the people, argueable only a few prophets knew him as lord. after moses, and during moses GOD was known as LORD and GOD both a personal god and an all powerful god of authority. replacing the pharaoh who was fake with christ who was legimate eventually.

CHRIST is the most accurate description of GOD, given as LORD and GOD. That the bible can give, any of the other names are therefore not necessary, and are simply words used to emphasis in what manor CHRIST is speaking.

is CHRIST speaking as lord? or is CHRIST speaking as GOD? and those words can also denote time period, as in old and new testament. In that sense they are accurate.

BUT NOT IN THE SENSE ITS DOING ANY SPECIAL FAVOR IN DESCRIBING GOD AS GOD OR GOD AS LORD, we have the name CHRIST for that. so en essense everything else can be called in "excess".

The Gregorian · May 7, 2009

yeshuachrist said:
CHRIST is the most accurate description of GOD, given as LORD and GOD. That the bible can give, any of the other names are therefore not necessary, and are simply words used to emphasis in what manor CHRIST is speaking.

Which is my biggest problem with replacing God's name with an interchangeable title, like "lord." "Christ" is not a name. "Christ" is the messiah, who was sent by God.

Yes, God is referred to as "lord" ... Jesus, the Christ, is also referred to as "lord" ... that doesn't mean "God is Christ."

A tuna is a fish, a salmon is a fish, but a tuna is not a salmon.

This isn't a trinity debate... so let's leave the relationship between the Father and anyone else out of the conversation.

The point is the FATHER has a name... Why is it hidden?

And why do "Christians" ask "What's a Jehovah?"

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