On Protestant Missionaries in EO Nations

I guess I would have to reserve judgment until I new more about their approach. But, I can certainly see how we could apply methods used by others to our understanding. It's completely pragmatic. IF it is shown that they have useful methods for remembering and applying verses and they don't indoctrinate anything other than the fact that the Scriptures are an unrivaled written tool in the Church that should be appreciated and USED (and not only gazed at like a beautiful piece of art as often happens in many Orthodox Cultures, something that is NOT Orthodox) certainly we can learn from them and, in doing so, evanglize to them. I have no doubt that such a relationship CAN be symbiotic and can bring may of these sincere people to the faith.

Either way, something needs to be done in the Motherlands to bring cradles truly INTO the LIFE of the Church and joy of the resurrection.

What is being done in Russia for example? I don't know. I am told there are some impressive priests here or there but I wonder what is being done by the Metropolia of Moscow to combat this Churchwide. Not to just bring people to the doors of the building on Easter and when their mother dies for a Panakhida, but to make them realize what it means that Christ is Risen from the Dead, and why it matters that we all study the Scriptures? Im not saying that nothing is being done on an official level, I just don't know. Any insight? Dont get me wrong. We Orthodox have our own great problems to do deal with and I am the last to say that WE know what's going on. But the fact is that as the OP said, nominalism is a HUGE issue in Russia and it seems other Orthodox countries and protestant missionaries are able to attract many of these nominals into being practicing protestants. Ive met many and these aren't people who continued to do it just fro the free English lessons or food. Maybe that's how it started,b ut sooner or later they are convinced that the Scriptures matter and when they look at their own Church, that same love for the Scriptures is not so apparent. I'm not saying they are wrong, but certainly they are percieving SOMETHING real. I think the Church may be a little our of practice in educating her people on using the Scriptures, in a practical way.

While I think we need to be careful when seeking out the help of non-Orthodox, we also need to be careful of thinking that there is nothing we can gain from a practical point of view (not doctrinal).

Joshua

The navs want to work, in EO countries, not AGAINST the Church but WITH it (to re-invigorate it, rather than convert it).

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I pray that the EO populations of countries will not be tempted to leave the Church but rather to become better Orthodox Christians

Mike

Unfortunately it's more likely that the Protestants will simply take what they see as useful, and use it against the Church, as an attempt to convert Orthodox Christians, or establish pseudo-Orthodox sects...

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I hope they do not try that, some Protestants have tried things like that in the American South-West to convert Latino immigrants to Evangelicalism

Joshua G. said:

I guess I would have to reserve judgment until I new more about their approach. But, I can certainly see how we could apply methods used by others to our understanding. It's completely pragmatic. IF it is shown that they have useful methods for remembering and applying verses and they don't indoctrinate anything other than the fact that the Scriptures are an unrivaled written tool in the Church that should be appreciated and USED (and not only gazed at like a beautiful piece of art as often happens in many Orthodox Cultures, something that is NOT Orthodox) certainly we can learn from them and, in doing so, evanglize to them. I have no doubt that such a relationship CAN be symbiotic and can bring may of these sincere people to the faith.

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I grew up reading scripture everyday, I was educated in the evangelical faith by 2 Bible college educated parents, etc... Simply in a year of listening to the readings and prayers during the Liturgy in an Orthodox Church and I learned more than my entire evangelical life prior.

Yes, it's good to encourage people to read/listen to the scriptures more, but that opportunity is already available in our own Church.

Joshua G. said:

Either way, something needs to be done in the Motherlands to bring cradles truly INTO the LIFE of the Church and joy of the resurrection.

What is being done in Russia for example? I don't know. I am told there are some impressive priests here or there but I wonder what is being done by the Metropolia of Moscow to combat this Churchwide. Not to just bring people to the doors of the building on Easter and when their mother dies for a Panakhida, but to make them realize what it means that Christ is Risen from the Dead, and why it matters that we all study the Scriptures?

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At least those people are coming once a year. Most people in our society don't come at all.

Furthermore, you ask what is being done in Russia? Just look at how the Russian Church has progressed since communism... For 70 years the Church was oppressed, athiesm was the state religion, kids were indoctrinated into athiest ideals, etc... - yet today, the majority (I've heard around 70&#37 self-identify as Orthodox, even if they might not come to the services as much as is ideal, that's still huge...

Joshua G. said:

Im not saying that nothing is being done on an official level, I just don't know. Any insight? Dont get me wrong. We Orthodox have our own great problems to do deal with and I am the last to say that WE know what's going on. But the fact is that as the OP said, nominalism is a HUGE issue in Russia and it seems other Orthodox countries and protestant missionaries are able to attract many of these nominals into being practicing protestants.

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Yes, nominalism is a problem in traditional Christian countries. However secularism is also a huge problem in our country - I don't know a single person my age (outside of those at our parish) who attends church. Actually, I'm not sure I know ANYONE (including my parents who claim to be evangelicals) who goes to church at all... (outside of our parish of course) Furthermore, just look at the state of Western Christianity. Yes, the Orthodox Church has it's problems, but honestly, it's doing alright considering the situation in the rest of Christendom.

And you say you've seen some protestants who are able to turn nominal Orthodox Christians into practicing protestants (not sure what that means, as most Protestants don't have anything to 'practice'), well I've also seen many cradle Orthodox who left the faith come back to it. Or many who were nominal start practicing their faith. All those I grew up with in the evangelical church are now athiest/agnostic - including myself for many years.

Joshua G. said:

Ive met many and these aren't people who continued to do it just fro the free English lessons or food. Maybe that's how it started,b ut sooner or later they are convinced that the Scriptures matter and when they look at their own Church, that same love for the Scriptures is not so apparent. I'm not saying they are wrong, but certainly they are percieving SOMETHING real. I think the Church may be a little our of practice in educating her people on using the Scriptures, in a practical way.

While I think we need to be careful when seeking out the help of non-Orthodox, we also need to be careful of thinking that there is nothing we can gain from a practical point of view (not doctrinal).

Joshua

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There is nothing we can gain. What can we gain from Buddhism, Islam, or Taoism? About the same we can gain from Protestantism...

And I'm not sure why you say the love for the scriptures is not as apparent in our church. In the Orthodox Church's divine services, the scriptures are read much, much more often than in any evangelical church, and much more reverently as well.

i suppose that's a tricky thing to deal with.
my humble opinion is that if the official Church sees useful methods in other christian dogmas She could have wise Orthodox people look into them and come up with suggestions.
but having protestants or whoever else teach orthodox is certainly not wise.
if i was to teach a protestant about scripture i will most obviously put my orthodox beliefs and understanding into it.

my 2 cents..

I must agree with others here who are uneasy about this.

It's good the the Navigators obviously have a regard for and appreciate the Holy Tradition of the Church and are willing to learn more about history and their own origins. This will definitely give them more understanding.

At the same time though, Orthodoxy is so different from an evangelical Protestant group such as this and I just think the differences would cause some confusion among the Orthodox and the Navigators. As a result, some people in the Navigators may be mislead about the Orthodox Church's beliefs, or the Navigators may be leading people toward just another Protestant mission in Russia that has gained the sympathy of the Church.

So, we shall see. God's will be done.

When I was Protestant, my non denom church sent missionaries to Catholic and Orthodox countries to 'share the Gospel' with them. Of course, that would be the Protestant gospel. I hope this is not what the Navigators are doing... I don't know much about them, although there is a Nav group at my university. I used to be involved in Campus for Christ, and they definitely do "evangelize", sometimes they evangelize other Chrisitians lol.. they have good motives, of course.. they just don't realize they're already Christian.
I think in a lot of culturally Christian countries, there are many nominal, 'cultural' Christians. It's always good to develop an appreciation of Scripture. But at the same time, becoming Protestant and leaving the Sacraments is not the best solution. So I guess what I'm saying is that I hope the Orthodox and Catholic churches would do more encourage their parishioners to read the Bible..

I just hope the Navigators won't 'evangelize' the people and convert them to Protestantism.

Somehow I missed this post.

Mikeb85 said:

I grew up reading scripture everyday, I was educated in the evangelical faith by 2 Bible college educated parents, etc... Simply in a year of listening to the readings and prayers during the Liturgy in an Orthodox Church and I learned more than my entire evangelical life prior.

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I'm not talking about you or me or most people in this forum. I'm not talking about any individual. I'm talking about countries where it's not unheard of to go to church-going families' houses and they don't know for sure if they have a Bible or not (often due to the effects of communism as my church-going romanian friend in Suceava explained to me after I asked if I could see a Bible and she didn't think she had one). I'm not juding their faith... but certainly renewed interest in the Bible is a good and even vital thing.

Yes, it's good to encourage people to read/listen to the scriptures more, but that opportunity is already available in our own Church.

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In my parish it is and in you parish. But most parishes in the those countries, from what I understand, do not have regular Bible studies or encourage their people to peruse the scriptures daily. We aren't talking about the US here but rather Russia and such.

At least those people are coming once a year. Most people in our society don't come at all.

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And that's wonderful. I mean, if they could only come one time a year... what better day than Pascha! Again, I'm not judging them.

Furthermore, you ask what is being done in Russia? Just look at how the Russian Church has progressed since communism... For 70 years the Church was oppressed, athiesm was the state religion, kids were indoctrinated into athiest ideals, etc... - yet today, the majority (I've heard around 70%) self-identify as Orthodox, even if they might not come to the services as much as is ideal, that's still huge...

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It is huge. Mike, I never said it wasn't. It's monumental. But that doesn't mean that THIS aspect isn't lacking. So, my question is, what is being done not only to draw people into the Church (it is apparent that much is being done) but to re-teach Scriptural appreciation?

Yes, nominalism is a problem in traditional Christian countries. However secularism is also a huge problem in our country - I don't know a single person my age (outside of those at our parish) who attends church. Actually, I'm not sure I know ANYONE (including my parents who claim to be evangelicals) who goes to church at all... (outside of our parish of course) Furthermore, just look at the state of Western Christianity. Yes, the Orthodox Church has it's problems, but honestly, it's doing alright considering the situation in the rest of Christendom.

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Again, Mike, I think you are thinking that I am saying that we are good and they are not. Not at all. This thread is aobut one aspect. It is not about the entire faith, but one aspect of that faith. Appreciation of the Scriptures in a personal way. ie,. reading them on our own (with the guidance of the Church). In fact, I DONT believe we are better off than them for the reasons you mentioned which is why I am very hesitant to quickly claim independence from Patriarchs in other countries... because i don't trust our culture which is mostly completely anti-Orthodox values.

And you say you've seen some protestants who are able to turn nominal Orthodox Christians into practicing protestants (not sure what that means, as most Protestants don't have anything to 'practice'),

Well, my mom is protestant and she does "practice". She prays, she loves, she teaches, she reads the scriptures, she goes to Church every week. That's practicing and is essential. Just because she doesn't light candles and kiss icons doesn't mean she doesn't have anything to "practice".

well I've also seen many cradle Orthodox who left the faith come back to it. Or many who were nominal start practicing their faith. All those I grew up with in the evangelical church are now athiest/agnostic - including myself for many years.

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It seems you have had a very dismal protestant experience and can respect that, although, thankfully I cannot relate. My protestant upbringing was very beneficial and many of my friends and family practice their faith very seriously, in fact, I can only think of one friend who is agnostic.

There is nothing we can gain. What can we gain from Buddhism, Islam, or Taoism? About the same we can gain from Protestantism...

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Hmm... well, I'm not ready to throw the lutheran Church in with religions that deny Christ. I do respect nad agree with your hesitancy, however. it seems to me, though, that we are tlaking about method and not content. More than that, I see good in working with them so that they respect or faith and, in turn, push otherwise nominal Orthdoox to explore their own faith. I do respect that you disagree with this proposition. I'm only saying that it could be good. I dont' know everything about it however I do trust Metropolitan Jonah's judgment (not because of his position but because of his reputation) on this. I'm not saying YOU need to, though.

And I'm not sure why you say the love for the scriptures is not as apparent in our church. In the Orthodox Church's divine services, the scriptures are read much, much more often than in any evangelical church, and much more reverently as well.

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I agree with you. However, a personal appreciation or reading the scriptures in one's own time is not as much a part of the Church life as it is in many Churches and, if done in the light of the Church's wisdom, I think this can only be a beneficial thing. St. John Chrysostom speaks of it as necessary for battling demons, for example. Now, at that time, people didn't have their own copy so I am not sure how they went about this, but it seems apparent that saints have referred to perusing the Scriptures even outside of the context of the Divine Liturgy as important for spiritual regeneration.

Joshua

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Joshua G. said:

Well, my mom is protestant and she does "practice". She prays, she loves, she teaches, she reads the scriptures, she goes to Church every week. That's practicing and is essential. Just because she doesn't light candles and kiss icons doesn't mean she doesn't have anything to "practice".

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Further down your post you mention the Lutheran church, so I'll assume that's what you're talking about here as well? Depending on which Lutheran church they could be quite catholic in belief and practice, or closer to the more evangelical branches... But I'm not talking about the early Protestant churches like the Anglicans or Lutherans, or even the Methodists, but rather churches that would be considered part of the 'Radical Reformation', which is more along the lines of what is considered today 'Evangelical Christian' sects... (which is where, from what I've seen anyway, the Navigators fall doctrinally)

What I meant by my comment, is that for the Evangelical Christian to fully 'practice' their religion is basically Bible study, proselytizing, and doing charitable works. All good things to do, but limited... There's very little to help one improve the state of one's own soul. No concept of theosis or deification, no sacraments, a very limited prayer life (with a different focus), etc... It's a very shallow faith.

Joshua G. said:

It seems you have had a very dismal protestant experience and can respect that, although, thankfully I cannot relate. My protestant upbringing was very beneficial and many of my friends and family practice their faith very seriously, in fact, I can only think of one friend who is agnostic.

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I'm not sure I'd necessarily call it dismal. We had a growing, active church, lots of youth, a good pastor. Both my parents were Bible college educated, I was active in the church as a youth, read the Bible every day, etc... By all standards I got a good Evangelical upbringing, and nothing in my experience was necessarily bad.

But getting back to my earlier point, it's a shallow faith, with theology that is very, very lacking (there's no way to reconcile scripture and history with some of their doctrines, ot their concept of 'The Church'), and a lack of opportunity for spiritual development. They do good outward works, but there's not really any goal, or purpose.

I left that church and Christianity (or what I thought Christianity was at the time) not because of any negative experience, but because I simply could not believe that that is the true faith... They might confess Christ as God, but their Christ is not the same as ours...

Joshua G. said:

I agree with you. However, a personal appreciation or reading the scriptures in one's own time is not as much a part of the Church life as it is in many Churches and, if done in the light of the Church's wisdom, I think this can only be a beneficial thing. St. John Chrysostom speaks of it as necessary for battling demons, for example. Now, at that time, people didn't have their own copy so I am not sure how they went about this, but it seems apparent that saints have referred to perusing the Scriptures even outside of the context of the Divine Liturgy as important for spiritual regeneration.

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I agree that reading the scriptures is a great thing, especially in the context of the Orthodox Church. I would never say someone shouldn't read the scriptures.

But you can learn to memorize text out of a book from a school teacher. Learning from someone whose purpose is to convert people away from your faith IMO is too risky, with little to no reward. What can they teach us that would help us in our own faith? Nothing. My old church also taught us how to systematically memorize the scriptures - but it was a very mechanical process, and didn't do alot to improve understanding or appreciation.

Furthermore, this is important. Everyone in the Evangelical world knows that their 'Church' (or whatever their concept of 'Church' is) is dying... They have all the techniques, outreach, unlimited funding, etc..., that any church could hope for. They do everything they can to reach out, appeal to the youth, modernize, etc..., that is possible to do. Yet their church is on the verge of collapse, it's estimated that in 2 generations the Evangelical world will have only half as many people as it does now... There's a reason for this.

To sum it up, I just don't think anything is lacking in the Orthodox Church, that we'd need to borrow anything. Everything that could possibly be needed for salvation, everything you could ever want to understand about the scriptures, can be found in the tradition of the Orthodox Church.

I wrote a pretty long response and just ended up repeating myself and I don't want to make you do the same. I respect your reservations and oftentimes I would be right on your side. I want to make it clear. I am not saying 'Yes! this is the answer!" I am just saying that it is possible to learn things from protestants as far as methods and pragmatism goes. I agree with you that theology and how to live a Christian life is not something we should ever look out side for. The idea that daily reading of the Scriptures is vital for the soul is NOT something learned from Protestants. That is a purely Orthodox concept that is unfortunately foreign to many post-communist cultures. Reading the way of the Pilgrim we see that this is not just a "good" practice but vital for the growth of the soul.

Anyway, I don't hope to convince you. I just wanted to clarify.

God bless Brother,

Joshua

Seven years ago, I was a history teacher at an Evangelical high school when I converted to Orthodoxy. After much discussion, it was decided that I could keep my job as long as I did not "preach Orthodoxy" to my students. I felt this was only fair and agreed.

But I "preached Orthodoxy" in many ways all the time by the topics I chose to teach. My class lectures were full of references to the Orthodox Church that presented it in a very favorable light. My students came to view Orthodoxy as a delightful religion and would often ask me "What does your church believe about ___________?" and I would cheerfully explain how the EO view differed from the Catholic or Protestant view.

So while I never "preached Orthodoxy," in effect, I did. And I think those well-intentioned Navigators will find themselves "preaching Evangelicalism" even if they don't pass out "The Four Spiritual Laws" tracts.