People unfairly atack muslims

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Futuwwa

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And you prove that you don't know crap about the fallacies you accuse people of. I'm accusing you of committing a fallacy. I would have to do it with the purpose of diverting attention from some fallacy I'm supposedly committing for it to be a tu quoque. In other words, you will have to assume I'm doing tu quoque to be able to prove that I'm doing it, which is known as the cirular argument fallacy.

What is there in the OP that warrants dealing with? The OP makes an assertion, so by commonly accepted rules for argumentation, it is the responsibility of the OP to provide proof. Which it doesn't.
 
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Philothei

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And of course the Koran that states what is states is "irrelevant" per our discussion? That is not enough evidence that was presented numerous times to you? There lies the evidence. Now I know you can always escape this by quequa ;)

Blaming on circular fallacy is easy since you post the same aplogetics known from numerous islamic sites... "we do it because christians do this ALSO" is barely a support for Islam...
 
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TG123

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False dichotomy.
Futuwwa is correct. The Quran to my knowledge approves of war as response to attacks on Muslims. Sounds like the "just war" theory that many believe in in the West.

Christianity unlike Islam and other religions teaches love for enemies. Islam does not teach such a powerful message. However it also does not condone terrorism or spousal abuse.

When are more Christians in the West going to start the terrorism waged by our leaders against Muslims in Iraq and Pakistan and Afghanistan in this mass murder known as the "war on terror"?
 
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TG123

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I wonder why the Middle Eastern leaders who are Muslim fight for laws for spousal rape...which is abuse.

Why is the Middle East so oppressive to women and what is influencing such thought and behavior?

I suspect the Koran.
Ever wonder why there is such a high rate of prostitution, inappropriate contentography, drug use, alcoholism in the United States and Canada? Why US pilots dropped cluster bombs into residential areas of Baghdad they were bombing and why US prisoners have been sexually abused, thrown into walls, near drowned, and in some cases beaten to death?

Do you blame the Bible for that since all American and Canadian leaders identify themselves as Christians and more than 50% of our populations do as well?

Of course not! These things are condemned not condoned by Jesus. Hypocrites twist the Word of God to suit their agendas.

I do not believe that the Quran is the message from God. However it does not justify or propagate most extremist ideas.
 
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SanFrank

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And you prove that you don't know crap about the fallacies you accuse people of. I'm accusing you of committing a fallacy. I would have to do it with the purpose of diverting attention from some fallacy I'm supposedly committing for it to be a tu quoque. In other words, you will have to assume I'm doing tu quoque to be able to prove that I'm doing it, which is known as the cirular argument fallacy.

What is there in the OP that warrants dealing with? The OP makes an assertion, so by commonly accepted rules for argumentation, it is the responsibility of the OP to provide proof. Which it doesn't.

Where is the moderator now?
 
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SanFrank

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Futuwwa is correct. The Quran to my knowledge approves of war as response to attacks on Muslims. Sounds like the "just war" theory that many believe in in the West.

Muslims enjoy killing eachother... this is evident on a daily basis in any muslim country... the bigger the toll the better for the individual doing the killing. A mosque was just bombed yesterday killing 100 or so... the perpetrator is always another muslim.

We see here an example of human behavior in the absence of G*d... in the absence of the Cross. You don't have to be Muslim to kill... you can be any religion or no religion... if you don't have the crucifixion in your heart, revenge is always on your mind.
 
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Futuwwa

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Futuwwa is correct. The Quran to my knowledge approves of war as response to attacks on Muslims. Sounds like the "just war" theory that many believe in in the West.

Actually, that's not why her post was a false dichotomy. You are of course correct in what you say, but the reason for why her post was a false dichotomy is that it assumed that you'd either have to be a "peaceful Muslim" (whatever that may mean) or one of those Muslims who do bad stuff on TV. I am neither.
 
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Futuwwa

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Muslims enjoy killing eachother... this is evident on a daily basis in any muslim country... the bigger the toll the better for the individual doing the killing. A mosque was just bombed yesterday killing 100 or so... the perpetrator is always another muslim.

Oh yeah, yesterday I earned myself some divine brownie points by beheading my aunt, my granny, my mother-in-law and my imam's pet dog.
 
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dnihila

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It seems to me that she points to "interpretation" but the Koran itself contains passages that are by themselves "condeming" and accusing those who are too lukewarm in the faith.... So it can be interpreted any way one wants... It sounds more than confusing to me it sounds like there are peaceful mulsims still there is an overwhelming majority that are "allowed" to proclaim death by sword. And those who do not believe in "by the sword conquering the world and establising Islam" are not effective enough to make a difference. I wonder why is this tolerated by those who are not proclaiming violence?? If Islam is a peaceful religion why all these crimes then? And why they are jutified in Koran? Because they are...
The Holy Quran can never be interpretated by humans. The Only One Who can interpreted the Holy Quran is the Almighty by the other verses in the Holy Quran. So, Verses in the Holy Quran are interpretated by the Holy Quran itself. And that's why there are 72 sects going to Hell.
They played the role of having the authority to interpret the Holy Quran the way they want. Don't they know that the Almighty is aware of what will happen in life till the Judgment Day? Don't they know that when He sent the Holy Quran, He knows very well that its verses are for any place and any time till the end of times? Aren't they supposed to show all the respect to prophet Muhammed ( peace be upon him) whose life and words are the perfect example to follow? Don't they know that by making their own judgements and their own interpretations are stepping on the borders of prophecy that belongs to prophet Muhammed ( peace be upon him)?
Did he command them to do that? Did he tell them that Islam is not perfect and needs someone to complete it? Then, what was his mission about if Islam is uptill now is not perfect?
Don't they remember his life with Jews and Christians and how kind and merciful he was. They also forgot that he didn't send his soldiers to attack but to defend. They also forgot that he asked them not to kill old people, children and women. They forgot that he asked them not to destroy any temple or cut trees. Their short sights made them deny the fact that he sent letters to kings and rulers to invite them to Islam and he never fought people of the Book. He also fought the permenant enemies for all prophets. He wanted Justice to spread when some are wealthy and their nations are dying of poverty and hunger. He wanted to end opression. And if he took money from the Jews or Christians in his community , that was to supply them with protection because Muslims were the ones to guard at those times.
He never tortured or made any a Muslim. He speaks, negotiate, invite and made the war choice his last option. If money and power were his goal, he would of died as a king but he didn't. He never wore gold or diamonds. He never enjoyed life the way people with power do.
But these days, the war in the name of Islam turned to be the cover for drug dealers and Mafias.
 
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TG123

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Muslims enjoy killing eachother... this is evident on a daily basis in any muslim country... the bigger the toll the better for the individual doing the killing. A mosque was just bombed yesterday killing 100 or so... the perpetrator is always another muslim.

We see here an example of human behavior in the absence of G*d... in the absence of the Cross. You don't have to be Muslim to kill... you can be any religion or no religion... if you don't have the crucifixion in your heart, revenge is always on your mind.

Muslims do not enjoy killing each other. They want to live no less than you do, they cry over the bodies of their children the same way you would. The Shia-Muslim hatreds exist in the hearts of extremists but not all Muslims. There was no civil war in Iraq between Sunni and Shia before the Americans decided to invade.

I agree that violence is the result of the rejection of Jesus. The grace that He has given us on the cross is rejected by those who deny His sacrifice, but also by those in the West who call themselves Christians yet by their murderous actions in the Middle East reject His teachings.

The biggest threat to the spread of the Gospel in the Middle East is not Islamic extremists but so-called "Christians" who are waging the "war on terror" and hypocrites in the Southern Baptist Convention and many Evangelical and other church denominations who clap their hands and shout "God bless our troops" as they bomb mosques and hospitals and gun down children at checkpoints in the name of 'democracy'.
 
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Everlasting33

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Ever wonder why there is such a high rate of prostitution, inappropriate contentography, drug use, alcoholism in the United States and Canada? Why US pilots dropped cluster bombs into residential areas of Baghdad they were bombing and why US prisoners have been sexually abused, thrown into walls, near drowned, and in some cases beaten to death?

Do you blame the Bible for that since all American and Canadian leaders identify themselves as Christians and more than 50% of our populations do as well?

Of course not! These things are condemned not condoned by Jesus. Hypocrites twist the Word of God to suit their agendas.

I do not believe that the Quran is the message from God. However it does not justify or propagate most extremist ideas.

The difference is that the Koran actually says for men to "lightly hit" their wives. It also commands other things listed below...so while it may be hypocritical to hit your wives in Christianity, not so for the Koran.




But, I would argue that Muslims are much more zealous in their faith. While this is just my own opinion, I find other faiths (Islam, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons) much more dedicated to their faith than your average Christian.

Because of this, I correlate zealous religious teachings applied to the society in and of itself.

"Part of the problem dates to Muhammad. Even as he proclaimed new rights for women, he enshrined their inequality in immutable law, passed down as God's commandments and eventually recorded in scripture. The Koran allots daughters half the inheritance of sons. It decrees that a woman's testimony in court, at least in financial matters, is worth half that of a man's. Under Shari'a, or Muslim law, compensation for the murder of a woman is half the going rate for men. In many Muslim countries, these directives are incorporated into contemporary law. For a woman to prove rape in Pakistan, for example, four adult males of "impeccable" character must witness the penetration, in accordance with Shari'a.

s Riffat Hassan, professor of religious studies at the University of Louisville, puts it, "The way Islam has been practiced in most Muslim societies for centuries has left millions of Muslim women with battered bodies, minds and souls."
The Women of Islam - TIME

The violence and oppression of Muslim men and women is enough to convince me of its invalid and evil ways and ultimately worshiping a false god.
 
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TG123

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The difference is that the Koran actually says for men to "lightly hit" their wives. It also commands other things listed below...so while it may be hypocritical to hit your wives in Christianity, not so for the Koran.




But, I would argue that Muslims are much more zealous in their faith. While this is just my own opinion, I find other faiths (Islam, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons) much more dedicated to their faith than your average Christian.

Because of this, I correlate zealous religious teachings applied to the society in and of itself.

"Part of the problem dates to Muhammad. Even as he proclaimed new rights for women, he enshrined their inequality in immutable law, passed down as God's commandments and eventually recorded in scripture. The Koran allots daughters half the inheritance of sons. It decrees that a woman's testimony in court, at least in financial matters, is worth half that of a man's. Under Shari'a, or Muslim law, compensation for the murder of a woman is half the going rate for men. In many Muslim countries, these directives are incorporated into contemporary law. For a woman to prove rape in Pakistan, for example, four adult males of "impeccable" character must witness the penetration, in accordance with Shari'a.

s Riffat Hassan, professor of religious studies at the University of Louisville, puts it, "The way Islam has been practiced in most Muslim societies for centuries has left millions of Muslim women with battered bodies, minds and souls."
The Women of Islam - TIME

The violence and oppression of Muslim men and women is enough to convince me of its invalid and evil ways and ultimately worshiping a false god.

I agree that to hit one's wife is terrible, I have a girlfriend who I one day want to marry. I'd never raise my voice at her, forget hit her.

The permission to "lightly hit" one's wife is terrible, but are all of the other horrific facts you mentioned really Islamic? For example is the Pakistani law based on Quran scripture? Or that a woman's testimony in court is equal to 1/2 that of a man? I don't know, I'm asking.

Regarding inheritance, could that be because women in Islamic culture (and also in Europe and North America for many centuries) stay at home while their husbands work?

I know a Muslim woman who I went to university with and now she is married to this Muslim guy. I went to their home and we went out (my girlfriend and I and that family) and I know both her and him fairly well. They have 2 young sons whom they cherish and love. Being in their home you can feel the love and respect she has for him and he for her. I can say that I know that she is not being beaten or dominated or told what to do. She stays at home with the kids, though she used to work after they got married and before they had kids. I have Christian friends who are women and who are stay-at-home Moms too. They don't do it because they're being tyrannized but because they choose to.

Islam does teach falsehoods about Jesus and one can't have eternal life following this religion. There are aspects of Islam that I find to be immoral (such as hitting one's wife, allowing for retaliatory and defensive violence, etc).

If you can back up all of the points you made with Quran or accepted Hadith quotes I'd be interested in reading them.
 
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Futuwwa

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The violence and oppression of Muslim men and women is enough to convince me of its invalid and evil ways and ultimately worshiping a false god.

If it is the consensus of the rest of humanity that Islam is oppressive, then I am an oppressor. I do not ask for permission to practice Islam, I kiss the iron boot.
 
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Futuwwa

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I agree that to hit one's wife is terrible, I have a girlfriend who I one day want to marry. I'd never raise my voice at her, forget hit her.

I hope I would never have to do that. Yet, I recognize that there are specific circumstances that warrant it.

The permission to "lightly hit" one's wife is terrible, but are all of the other horrific facts you mentioned really Islamic? For example is the Pakistani law based on Quran scripture? Or that a woman's testimony in court is equal to 1/2 that of a man? I don't know, I'm asking.

There are five passages in the Quran dealing with witnessing for judicial purposes. Only in one of them does gender matter, and that is when witnessing the entering of economic contracts.

Regarding inheritance, could that be because women in Islamic culture (and also in Europe and North America for many centuries) stay at home while their husbands work?

Well, almost. Women are not prohibited to work by Islam, yet men are levied with a duty to provide for their wives and children, as well as for close female relatives that have no husband or father who provides for them. Men are providers and caretakers of wealth, they're not given a higher inheritance share as a freebie.
 
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TG123

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I hope I would never have to do that. Yet, I recognize that there are specific circumstances that warrant it.



There are five passages in the Quran dealing with witnessing for judicial purposes. Only in one of them does gender matter, and that is when witnessing the entering of economic contracts.



Well, almost. Women are not prohibited to work by Islam, yet men are levied with a duty to provide for their wives and children, as well as for close female relatives that have no husband or father who provides for them. Men are providers and caretakers of wealth, they're not given a higher inheritance share as a freebie.

Hi Futuwwa,

Thank you for the response. I have to ask you though, when you say "specific circumstances that warrant it" what circumstances are you referring to and that what is warranted? Raising your voice at your wife or hitting her??? My girlfriend and I haven't had a fight yet but in extreme circumstances I guess maybe I would yell - provided she was yelling too, I don't think I would ever tell first. But hit her?? Never. What could warrant hitting your wife?

In the passage that claims that gender does make a legal difference, is it indeed true that a woman's vote is 1/2 that of a man? Could I see the passage for that and for the wife hitting (if such a passage exists)?

Thanks for your input on the last point, I was pretty certain the inheritance was given based on responsibility that the guy would have.
 
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Futuwwa

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Thank you for the response. I have to ask you though, when you say "specific circumstances that warrant it" what circumstances are you referring to and that what is warranted? Raising your voice at your wife or hitting her??? My girlfriend and I haven't had a fight yet but in extreme circumstances I guess maybe I would yell - provided she was yelling too, I don't think I would ever tell first. But hit her?? Never. What could warrant hitting your wife?

Persistent grossly immoral behaviour, after having tried in vain every imaginable way to resolve it amiably.

In the passage that claims that gender does make a legal difference, is it indeed true that a woman's vote is 1/2 that of a man? Could I see the passage for that and for the wife hitting (if such a passage exists)?

The Quran search service I'm using appears to be down at the moment, I'll get back to you later.
 
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Foreshadow

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A muslim man beheads his wife for divorsing him and the mans friend is worried that people will unfairly get a bad impression of islam, when islamic law prescribes exactly that.SteynOnline - Home go to steynonline for this and more. styen is a top rate writer who describes his work as
'apocaliptic standup'
I think that extreme Muslims make a bad name for the majority of muslums that are good people.
 
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TG123

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Persistent grossly immoral behaviour, after having tried in vain every imaginable way to resolve it amiably.
OK I have to be honest with you, I don't mean to disrespect your beliefs but I think that is terrible. To hit one's spouse is abuse.
Does Islam also allow the wife to hit her husband if she has caught him engaged in immoral behaviour?



The Quran search service I'm using appears to be down at the moment, I'll get back to you later.
Shukran. :)
 
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