The patience of Job? Or the patience of God?

I think I know what you're saying, but why do I feel that making any response would be like stepping into a minefield?

Arphaxad12 said:

The fact is that Job's terrible attitudes toward the Lord and his greatly overblown assessment of his own righteousness put him in the miserable condition he endured.

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I don't see that in the text. I see:God Himself thought Job was a perfect and upright man. And in Job 1:12 God grants Satan permission to afflict him. Job did not bring it upon himself.

"Why should the righteous suffer?" "Why not?" replied Lewis......"They're the only ones who can handle it." CS Lewis

God Himself declared: "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT" (Job 1:1). "And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a PERFECT and an UPRIGHT man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil?" (Job 1:8).

Why do the righteous suffer? This is the question raised after Job loses his family, his wealth, and his health. Job's 3 friends, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, come to comfort him and to discuss his crushing series of tragedies. They insist his suffering is punishment for sin in his life. Job, though, remains devoted to God through all of this and contends that his life has not been one of sin.

There was NO JUST CAUSE for Job's misfortunes and trials, that God had allowed the devil to afflict Job "WITHOUT CAUSE". The Book of Job helps us to understand the following: Satan cannot bring financial and physical destruction upon us unless it is by God's permission. God has power over what Satan can and cannot do. It is beyond our human ability to understand the "why's" behind all the suffering in the world.

What's interesting is that other biblical writers refer to Job as a real person. Ezekiel refers to Job along with Noah and Daniel (Ezekiel 14:14,20). And James draws upon the example of Job to comfort the suffering, proving the point that God is merciful. He commends the endurance of Job (Jas. 5:11). From the Book of Job, we see that God is in complete control. Satan had neither the power nor the authority to do anything without the permission of God. It was consistent with God's nature and will for him to have allowed those things to happen to Job.

Job, Jonah and others stories to me are literally true according to God's power however seem so "unreal" from sinner (including those who claims to be Christians) point of view. They refuse to accept anything which they cannot understand. Inspiration, Miracles, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Atonement, the Holy Spirit, the Resurrection, the Future State, all these mighty verities are viewed with cold indifference as disputable points, if not absolutely rejected.

Who has not known that some of the minor facts and miracles of the Bible are the ostensible reasons which many assign why they cannot receive the Book as true, and make it their rule of faith and practice. People talk of the ark, and the passage of the Red Sea, and Balaam's ass, and Jonah in the whale's belly, and ask you sarcastically if you really believe such things to be credible and historically true.

In Matthew 12:40 Jesus said, "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Arphaxad12 said:

Hi Everyone

I just thought we should take "a second look" at Job's life, particularly what Elihu, God's representitive, had to say about Job's colossal self-righteousness. Before Job was severely corrected by Elihu and God Himself, Job's terrible attitudes toward the Lord, along with his greatly overblown estimate of himself, were really a perfect "picture" of all miserable Humanity:

Believers frequently bring up Job in their quest to make God responsible for their own mistakes. Little do they remember that God said to Satan: "LOOK, he is (already) in your hand." (parentheses, size and color emphases are my own).

The fact is that Job's terrible attitudes toward the Lord and his greatly overblown assessment of his own righteousness put him in the miserable condition he endured. In fact, even though he openly acknowledged that God could do all things, he never even once asked the Lord to deliver and heal him from his misery.:o

However, the Lord, in His great mercy, did deliver Job from his misery anyway by correcting his lousy attirudes through Elihu (God's representitive) and by speaking directly to Job to humble him. (see Job chapters 32-42).

However, before his correction, Job certainly wasn't bashful in complaining to his friends about what he perceived as God's unfairness in failing to recognize his "exceedingly wonderful righteousness." Here are just a few examples of Job's incredibly pompous estimation of his own goodness, including a backhanded swipe at the Lord's faithfulness:
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Job 29:2-25 Oh that I were as [in] months past, as [in] the days [when] God preserved me;
3 When his candle shined upon my head, [and when] by his light I walked [through] darkness;
4 As I was in the days of my youth, when the secret of God [was] upon my tabernacle;
5 When the Almighty [was] yet with me, [when] my children [were] about me;
6 When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil;
7 When I went out to the gate through the city, [when] I prepared my seat in the street!
8 The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, [and] stood up.
9 The princes refrained talking, and laid [their] hand on their mouth.
10 The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth.

11 When the ear heard [me], then it blessed me; and when the eye saw [me], it gave witness to me:
12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and [him that had] none to help him.
13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.

14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment [was] as a robe and a diadem.
15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet [was] I to the lame.

16 I [was] a father to the poor: and the cause [which] I knew not I searched out.
17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

18 Then I said, I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply [my] days as the sand.
19 My root [was] spread out by the waters, and the dew lay all night upon my branch.
20 My glory [was] fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.

21 Unto me [men] gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel.
22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.
23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide [as] for the latter rain.

24 [If] I laughed on them, they believed [it] not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.
25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one [that] comforteth the mourners.

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he [was] righteous in his own eyes.

(underlines, parentheses and color are my own).
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Here's what Elihu (God's representitive) had to say about Job's lavish self-praise:
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Job 34:1-12 Furthermore Elihu answered and said,
2 Hear my words, O ye wise [men]; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge.

3 For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.
4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what [is] good.

5 For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.
6 Should I lie against my (own) right? my wound [is] incurable without transgression.

7 What man [is] like Job, [who] drinketh up scorning like water?
8 Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men.
9 For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God.

10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, [that he should do] wickedness; and [from] the Almighty, [that he should commit] iniquity.

11 For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to [his] ways.

12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Job 34:35-37 Job hath spoken without knowledge, and his words [were] without wisdom.
36 My desire [is that] Job may be tried unto the end because of [his] answers for wicked men.
37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth [his hands] among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

Job 35:1-8 Elihu spake moreover, and said,

2 Thinkest thou this to be right, [that] thou saidst, My righteousness [is] more than God's?
3 For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? [and], What profit shall I have, [if I be cleansed] from my sin?

4 I will answer thee, and thy companions with thee.
5 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds [which] are higher than thou.
6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or [if] thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?

7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
8 Thy wickedness [may hurt] a man as thou [art]; and thy righteousness [may profit] the son of man.

James 1:13-15 Let no one going through a trial say that God is putting them through that trial. Because God cannot be put through any trial by evil, neither does He put any man through any trials by evil.

14 But every man brings on his own trials when he abandons reason and responds to his own proud desires.
15 Then as he implements those thoughtless, distorted, counterfeit desires, the result is active rebellion against God. And as that active rebellion continues, it brings forth death.

Jam 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. (underlines, parentheses and color are my own).
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So Job learned to sing a new song to the Lord which no mere man except the redeemed can learn :
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Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 96:1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
Psa 98:1 [[A Psalm.]] O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Psa 144:9 I will sing a new song unto thee, O God: upon a psaltery [and] an instrument of ten strings will I sing praises unto thee.
Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.
Isa 42:10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof. (underlines and color are my own).
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Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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At the end of the book, we read this profound statement: "After the Lord had finished speaking with Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite: 'I am angry with you and your two friends, for you have not been right in what you have said about me, as my servant Job was. Now take seven young bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer a burnt offering for yourselves; and my servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer on your behalf, and won't destroy you as I should because of your sin, your failure to speak rightly concerning my servant Job" (Job 42:7-8). They were in error because they ASSUMED that Job SINNED, based on the "evidence" of his sufferings alone. They had NO PROOF of any of Job's alleged sins that they accused him of but they just could not believe that he was blameless, and so they tried with all their might to convict him of sin, when he was blameless. They missed the whole point of Job's sufferings, just as most people do, many Christians assumed that their lack of faith or their sin.