Perhaps you should keep reading, because further down, it says Christ is the SOLE MEDIATOR.
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How can anyone not be Catholic? (Guadalupe)
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Perhaps you should keep reading, because further down, it says Christ is the SOLE MEDIATOR.
seebs
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BTW, to answer your original question, one might be a consistent skeptic, and not yet be convinced of various points of Catholic doctrine. But one might think you're awfully nice people anyway, and exceptionally patient.
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How can Christ be considered the sole mediator when Mary is given the title, mediatrix? Surely the Catholic Church seeks to unite, not divide (or confuse).
If her official title is mediatrix, and you call upon her in prayer as a mediatrix, why does your doctrine say that there is only one mediator? It seems to conflict. It's too bad the church did not choose a different word to describe Mary, like servant,or helper, or a similar easier to understand (but true) word instead of mediatrix, then people would know for sure the true meaning of the word.
It is a known fact that the Catholic Church does not want its Catechism to be reasoned with or interpolated. It is supposed to just be believed and accepted. Therefore, how are people supposed to understand the beliefs of the Church, when the language is not made plain to them through the Catechism?
The arguements you have given are still not sufficient for me to understand why the Church would use two forms of the same word (one masculine and one feminine) to describe two different levels of divinity, if you will (I don't know how else to describe it), when the literal meaning of each word is the same. Please clarify.
Otherwise, I ,and many others, could think that the title of Mary as Mediatrix is what the world teaches:
A rose ,is a rose ,is a rose
If her official title is mediatrix, and you call upon her in prayer as a mediatrix, why does your doctrine say that there is only one mediator? It seems to conflict. It's too bad the church did not choose a different word to describe Mary, like servant,or helper, or a similar easier to understand (but true) word instead of mediatrix, then people would know for sure the true meaning of the word.
It is a known fact that the Catholic Church does not want its Catechism to be reasoned with or interpolated. It is supposed to just be believed and accepted. Therefore, how are people supposed to understand the beliefs of the Church, when the language is not made plain to them through the Catechism?
The arguements you have given are still not sufficient for me to understand why the Church would use two forms of the same word (one masculine and one feminine) to describe two different levels of divinity, if you will (I don't know how else to describe it), when the literal meaning of each word is the same. Please clarify.
Otherwise, I ,and many others, could think that the title of Mary as Mediatrix is what the world teaches:
A rose ,is a rose ,is a rose
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"I think that's probably going to end up like trying to get a clear answer on what the difference between "Jesus" and "God" is. God is God."
Yes. And Jesus is God...and the Holy Spirt is God... and Jesus is in the Holy Spirit as well. Three in ONE. Holy Trinity.
and on and on and on and on and on.....
Don't understand Unitarians though......
I guess it's a little like that arguement that says "my way or the highway" too. Do I really want to send anyone who disagrees with me to the highway? Of course not! There would be a total traffic jam!
How would I ever get my Christmas shopping done?
God Bless all of you.
Yes. And Jesus is God...and the Holy Spirt is God... and Jesus is in the Holy Spirit as well. Three in ONE. Holy Trinity.
and on and on and on and on and on.....
Don't understand Unitarians though...... I guess it's a little like that arguement that says "my way or the highway" too. Do I really want to send anyone who disagrees with me to the highway? Of course not! There would be a total traffic jam!
How would I ever get my Christmas shopping done? God Bless all of you.
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The term Mediatrix for Mary is used in the same manner which Paul calls himself a steward of God's grace. We each, as Christians, are given the Great Commission to spread God's word, and are given the grace to accomplish this task, and indeed share the grace that we have been given with others. We believe that Mary, as the Mother of Christ, prays for the souls of each of us, thus, through her prayers, she plays a role in the dispensation of God's grace. We each do this to various extents. I hope and pray that my prayers and actions have been effective at sharing the grace of God with others. I pray that I may act as a good steward of the grace that God has given me, and may share it through prayer and deed with all of those I meet. I am not the source of grace, nor am I the one that brought it to mankind, nor is Mary the source nor harbinger of God's grace. Neither of us won it for mankind and redeemed us, but it should be the prayer of each of us that to the weak we become weak, that we might win the weak. That we become all things to all men, that we might by all means save some (1 Corinthians 9:22). Wow... That we might save some. How great is the glory and mercy of God that He allows us to become a part of His body, and help spread the salvation of Christ to others. In all cases it is Christ who does it, and all the glory is His... Nonetheless, how great is he that he allows us, His children, such a great role in His Kingdom.
God Bless,
Neal
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Two reasons.
First, sociological conditions are not conducive at this time. (Of course, they are not conducive toward what I am interested in as well)
Second, ecclesiology is, in my mind, the key to unity between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communions, and on this question, Orthodoxy is more open to variations which would allow for a compromise solution between the two. This is mostly due to the less developed character of Orthodox ecclesiology (call them stuck in the past if you like, but on this issue it is a boon to finding agreement since an underdeveloped ecclesiology can be more accommodating to other traditions than one that is highly developed and dogmatized)
As I see it, the reason solutions between the two communions are so difficult to resolve is that they do not appeal to one tradition, but to two parallel, but potentially complimentary, traditions. Thus both have historical precedence for the developments that have occurred in their respective communions. What is then needed is a bridge between these two traditions, a convergence where they can meet each other in fraternal unity founded upon love, and not one communion having to submit to the other, which has been the method of union in the past.
These two traditions are the natural outgrowth of the Gospel message being adapted to different societies. In the case of east and west, this occurred with the move in the west toward the Latin language, and Latin terminology which carried with them Latin concepts which shaped the Apostolic kergyma to fit the Latin mindset. With these came different perspectives on the content of that message, different questions which lead to different answers.
One beautifully clear example is the introduction of Latin jurisprudent terminology and concepts to aid in the explication of soteriology. This development created the context by which a Pelagian controversy could occur, thus introducing questions that the East had not considered due to the greater emphasis of the ontological aspect of soteriology in the Greek language and culture. This evoked the incredible response and counter response of the 5th century which was to dictate the terms and terminology of Western soteriology for both Catholicism and Protestantism to this very day.
Another example is in ecclesiology and how the historical isolation of Rome as the only Apostolic see in the West made it the primary bishopric for Latin and the West. From this develops an understanding of Rome's role in the Church which, while not wholly in conflict, is different than what was understood in the East where sees of Apostolic foundation were much more common. This is why westerners who may have shared with the East similar concerns about conducting Church affairs in the fraternal affections of conciliarity (such as Cyprian) espouse similar ecclesiological principles as the East currently does, while there can be found eastern those who took a congenial view toward Roman primacy when such primacy fulfilled it's role as protector of orthodoxy (Athanasius comes to mind).
There are many more examples which one could draw forth to illustrate these parallel traditions which co-existed to varying degrees for the first 1000 years of Christianity, thoughts on Spirituality, with the wests greater demarcation between sacred and secular, made for a contributing factors in the Wests fall to the barbarian incursions beginning in the late 4th century and the Eastern half of the empire continuing for another 1000 years after that.
That is why I have great respect for Catholicism, and yet am not Catholic.
First, sociological conditions are not conducive at this time. (Of course, they are not conducive toward what I am interested in as well)
Second, ecclesiology is, in my mind, the key to unity between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox communions, and on this question, Orthodoxy is more open to variations which would allow for a compromise solution between the two. This is mostly due to the less developed character of Orthodox ecclesiology (call them stuck in the past if you like, but on this issue it is a boon to finding agreement since an underdeveloped ecclesiology can be more accommodating to other traditions than one that is highly developed and dogmatized)
As I see it, the reason solutions between the two communions are so difficult to resolve is that they do not appeal to one tradition, but to two parallel, but potentially complimentary, traditions. Thus both have historical precedence for the developments that have occurred in their respective communions. What is then needed is a bridge between these two traditions, a convergence where they can meet each other in fraternal unity founded upon love, and not one communion having to submit to the other, which has been the method of union in the past.
These two traditions are the natural outgrowth of the Gospel message being adapted to different societies. In the case of east and west, this occurred with the move in the west toward the Latin language, and Latin terminology which carried with them Latin concepts which shaped the Apostolic kergyma to fit the Latin mindset. With these came different perspectives on the content of that message, different questions which lead to different answers.
One beautifully clear example is the introduction of Latin jurisprudent terminology and concepts to aid in the explication of soteriology. This development created the context by which a Pelagian controversy could occur, thus introducing questions that the East had not considered due to the greater emphasis of the ontological aspect of soteriology in the Greek language and culture. This evoked the incredible response and counter response of the 5th century which was to dictate the terms and terminology of Western soteriology for both Catholicism and Protestantism to this very day.
Another example is in ecclesiology and how the historical isolation of Rome as the only Apostolic see in the West made it the primary bishopric for Latin and the West. From this develops an understanding of Rome's role in the Church which, while not wholly in conflict, is different than what was understood in the East where sees of Apostolic foundation were much more common. This is why westerners who may have shared with the East similar concerns about conducting Church affairs in the fraternal affections of conciliarity (such as Cyprian) espouse similar ecclesiological principles as the East currently does, while there can be found eastern those who took a congenial view toward Roman primacy when such primacy fulfilled it's role as protector of orthodoxy (Athanasius comes to mind).
There are many more examples which one could draw forth to illustrate these parallel traditions which co-existed to varying degrees for the first 1000 years of Christianity, thoughts on Spirituality, with the wests greater demarcation between sacred and secular, made for a contributing factors in the Wests fall to the barbarian incursions beginning in the late 4th century and the Eastern half of the empire continuing for another 1000 years after that.
That is why I have great respect for Catholicism, and yet am not Catholic.
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That fact that you are confused is both understandable and unfortunate. Hopefully the fact that Catholics (well most of us) are not confused, should provide some comfort to your concerns.
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KC Catholic
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Swalker...I understand your confusion and the need to clarify the difference.
I honestly can't think of what else I can say that would pass as an explaination. I do know as convert to Catholicism I cannot see what the issue is with Mary as a servant to God..assisting us by praying to God, to Jesus for us in our hour of need.
I just can't see the issue....Christ is the truth, the way and the light and no one comes to the Father execpt through him. He made that clear and the church supports that statement. Mary assists us in praying right along side us to our lord. She is his mother and as such...mothers tend to have some influence with their children.
Hth...
I honestly can't think of what else I can say that would pass as an explaination. I do know as convert to Catholicism I cannot see what the issue is with Mary as a servant to God..assisting us by praying to God, to Jesus for us in our hour of need.
I just can't see the issue....Christ is the truth, the way and the light and no one comes to the Father execpt through him. He made that clear and the church supports that statement. Mary assists us in praying right along side us to our lord. She is his mother and as such...mothers tend to have some influence with their children.
Hth...
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How about this as the final answer to the question, "How can anyone not be Catholic?"
Not everyone wants to be catholic!
Not everyone wants to be catholic!
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KC Catholic
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I'll tell you a good place you can find statements made by the various popes of history. Please take it with a grain of salt, it is not very pro-catholicism. Just for the record, if anyone thinks this needs to be taken off, then by all means do so, I do not agree with alot of the contents of the site, but it does have alot of information about quotes, etc. by papal authorities, if you can get by the anti-catholic jargon. www.Jesus-is-lord.com
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Wolseley
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I should go to Jesus-is-lord.com to find quotes from Catholic Pontiffs?
Sure.
By the way, my car had a dead battery earlier today....could you recommend a good radiometric astronomer to replace it for me?
Oh, and I'd like to file a lawsuit against somebody, so if you could recommend a good maxofillial surgeon, that'd help me.
And I need to replace some shingles on my house, so if you could give the number of any marine biologists you know......
Sure.
By the way, my car had a dead battery earlier today....could you recommend a good radiometric astronomer to replace it for me?
Oh, and I'd like to file a lawsuit against somebody, so if you could recommend a good maxofillial surgeon, that'd help me.
And I need to replace some shingles on my house, so if you could give the number of any marine biologists you know......
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KC Catholic
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Not that I need the attention, but I was curious about any thoughts on the line of reasoning I had provided.
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I would tend to agree. I believe actually sitting down to dialouge would to both sides a world of good. I am glad to see very positive movement in that direction has occurred within the past month.
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seebs
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I can only remember two, off the top of my head - Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the Virgin Mary. I forget what the other one was. And, of course, the place to find them is Wols. He knows everything.
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Who would want to become a member of a church that declares it's leader to be infallible and for hundreds of years prohibited the circulation of the Bible.
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