What if the Church were wrong once?
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Hoonbaba
Catholic Preterist
Hi Lambslove,
The Catholic church put the New Testament together. Scary thought isn't it?
All protestants are at mercy of the Catholic Church for putting the NT together.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if some protestants start saying, "Catholics altered the NT to create their own 'man-made' doctrines', as if to say the NT isn't the 'true' NT.
God bless!
-Jason
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Yes, in which case you couldnt trust anything Jesus told you! You might have to pray to Mecca five times a day to be saved or something like that, heh.
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I've never been clear on the infallibility thing; it could well be part of Tradition, rather than in Scripture.
Curiously, my willingness to believe that there could be "errors" (however trivial) in Scripture leaves me believing that Sacred Tradition is a good source of information, even though I don't believe it to be infallible either.
Curiously, my willingness to believe that there could be "errors" (however trivial) in Scripture leaves me believing that Sacred Tradition is a good source of information, even though I don't believe it to be infallible either.
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Hoonbaba
Catholic Preterist
Hi VOW,
As you know, I firmly disagree =P I don't think Jesus lied, but rather church may've misunderstood a few things about the end times, like the fact that Jesus said he would come in the lifetime of the apostles (Matt 16:27-28), within their generation (Matt 24:30,34), etc
In anycase, I don't want to get into this again, I think we've discussed this plenty of times
God bless!
-Jason
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I didn't say that everything about the Catholic church was wrong. I just know of enough stuff to make me walk away from it. Stuff that contradicts what I know the Bible says.
And the Catholic version of the Bible has things like the book of Judith, in which a widow seduces a man, then murders him, and she is regarded as a hero. It is not what I think God would find honorable. The entire OT was put together by Jews, not Catholics. Catholics put together the Apochrypha and the NT. The Apochrypha is meaningless. It adds nothing of value to the Bible. But the NT agrees with the teachings of the OT and the prophesies of Christ, so I'm fine with using it and considering it the word of God.
Again, I never said that everything about Catholicism is in error, just that enough of it is that I am no longer a Catholic.
And the Catholic version of the Bible has things like the book of Judith, in which a widow seduces a man, then murders him, and she is regarded as a hero. It is not what I think God would find honorable. The entire OT was put together by Jews, not Catholics. Catholics put together the Apochrypha and the NT. The Apochrypha is meaningless. It adds nothing of value to the Bible. But the NT agrees with the teachings of the OT and the prophesies of Christ, so I'm fine with using it and considering it the word of God.
Again, I never said that everything about Catholicism is in error, just that enough of it is that I am no longer a Catholic.
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Again, we are talking about the New Testament, not the Old Testament, which contains the supposed Apocrypha. And it was early Jewish believers that used the Septanguit, but that is irrelevant anyway. We are talking about the NT and what Jesus told us.
Why do you trust what the Church deemed worthy, in the 300s, when it had the official name of Catholic?
Why do you trust what the Church deemed worthy, in the 300s, when it had the official name of Catholic?
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Actually, the whole OT is from Hebrew scriptures, not just the septuagint, and it is revelant. As I said, I trust the NT because it agrees with the OT in every important way. I believe the words of Christ recorded in the NT are consistent with the character of God. That is why I believe it, not because some church fathers said so.
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How do you think that the NT was put together, if not by "some church fathers" saying what is Canon, and what isnt?
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Hoonbaba
Catholic Preterist
Is the church NOT the pillar and foundation of truth? (1 Tim 3:15)
Also, I came across a NT reference to the Apocrypha:
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[Taken from James Akins' website:]
For example, Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament "Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life" (Heb. 11:35).
There are a couple of examples of women receiving back their dead by resurrection in the Protestant Old Testament. You can find Elijah raising the son of the widow of Zarepheth in 1 Kings 17, and you can find his successor Elisha raising the son of the Shunammite woman in 2 Kings 4, but one thing you can never find -- anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi -- is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection. If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament -- in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.
The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7, where we read that during the Maccabean persecution, "It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and cords, to partake of unlawful swine's flesh. . . . ut the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, 'The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us . . . ' After the first brother had died . . . they brought forward the second for their sport. . . . he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, 'You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life'" (2 Macc. 7:1, 5-9).
One by one the sons die, proclaiming that they will be vindicated in the resurrection. "The mother was especially admirable and worthy of honorable memory. Though she saw her seven sons perish within a single day, she bore it with good courage because of her hope in the Lord. She encouraged each of them . . . [saying], 'I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws,'" telling the last one, "Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God's mercy I may get you back again with your brothers" (2 Macc. 7:20-23, 29).
-----------------------------------------------------
God bless!
-Jason
Also, I came across a NT reference to the Apocrypha:
-----------------------------------------------------
[Taken from James Akins' website:]
For example, Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament "Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life" (Heb. 11:35).
There are a couple of examples of women receiving back their dead by resurrection in the Protestant Old Testament. You can find Elijah raising the son of the widow of Zarepheth in 1 Kings 17, and you can find his successor Elisha raising the son of the Shunammite woman in 2 Kings 4, but one thing you can never find -- anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi -- is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection. If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament -- in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.
The story is found in 2 Maccabees 7, where we read that during the Maccabean persecution, "It happened also that seven brothers and their mother were arrested and were being compelled by the king, under torture with whips and cords, to partake of unlawful swine's flesh. . . . ut the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, saying, 'The Lord God is watching over us and in truth has compassion on us . . . ' After the first brother had died . . . they brought forward the second for their sport. . . . he in turn underwent tortures as the first brother had done. And when he was at his last breath, he said, 'You accursed wretch, you dismiss us from this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life'" (2 Macc. 7:1, 5-9).
One by one the sons die, proclaiming that they will be vindicated in the resurrection. "The mother was especially admirable and worthy of honorable memory. Though she saw her seven sons perish within a single day, she bore it with good courage because of her hope in the Lord. She encouraged each of them . . . [saying], 'I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave you life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws,'" telling the last one, "Do not fear this butcher, but prove worthy of your brothers. Accept death, so that in God's mercy I may get you back again with your brothers" (2 Macc. 7:20-23, 29).
-----------------------------------------------------
God bless!
-Jason
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I do think that is how it was put together. And again, I have never believed that everything catholics do is wrong. I believe that there are a lot of wrong teachings that do not have a scriptural basis, and not everything that catholicism put into the Bible is scripture, but I do believe that because the NT agrees with the OT in every important way and with the known character of God, it can be regarded as gospel.
I don't know how many other ways I can say it.
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This is basically a summary of 4 Maccabees (in which each son's death is described in gory, graphic, and excrutiating detail). I wonder why 4 Macc wasn't accepted into the canon?
-Chris
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VOW
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To Lambslove:
The Deuterocanonical books of the Septuagint were not rejected by the Jews until after the Resurrection of Christ. Their rejection was political in nature, because the Deuteros gave too much credence to those "upstart Christians."
Wolseley has provided numerous postings showing where the Deuteros have been paraphrased in the NT, by the Apostles, and also by Jesus Himself. This is indicative that the Apostles had access to those very books of Scripture.
Claiming the Deuteros are only available in Greek is not a valid reason to discredit the books, because recent discoveries in the Holy Lands have shown these books to also have been available in Hebrew as well.
As far as the "improper behavior" of Judith, I think all of us can find examples of blatant immorality throughout the generally accepted Old Testament books. David is a prime candidate, for having an affair with Bathsheba and then arranging her husband's death. Wise ruler Solomon had his moments of brilliance, but his marriages to pagan wives and keeping of pagan concubines corrupted him towards the end of his life, and he died unreconciled to God.
The Deuteros also contain the wonderful, Proverbs-like book of Wisdom, and the touching lovestory in Tobit. The Susanna chapters of Daniel have a nail-biter suspense story where the good guy (rather, good girl) manages to triumph at the last moment.
I love the Deuteros, can you tell?
Peace,
~VOW
The Deuterocanonical books of the Septuagint were not rejected by the Jews until after the Resurrection of Christ. Their rejection was political in nature, because the Deuteros gave too much credence to those "upstart Christians."
Wolseley has provided numerous postings showing where the Deuteros have been paraphrased in the NT, by the Apostles, and also by Jesus Himself. This is indicative that the Apostles had access to those very books of Scripture.
Claiming the Deuteros are only available in Greek is not a valid reason to discredit the books, because recent discoveries in the Holy Lands have shown these books to also have been available in Hebrew as well.
As far as the "improper behavior" of Judith, I think all of us can find examples of blatant immorality throughout the generally accepted Old Testament books. David is a prime candidate, for having an affair with Bathsheba and then arranging her husband's death. Wise ruler Solomon had his moments of brilliance, but his marriages to pagan wives and keeping of pagan concubines corrupted him towards the end of his life, and he died unreconciled to God.
The Deuteros also contain the wonderful, Proverbs-like book of Wisdom, and the touching lovestory in Tobit. The Susanna chapters of Daniel have a nail-biter suspense story where the good guy (rather, good girl) manages to triumph at the last moment.
I love the Deuteros, can you tell?
Peace,
~VOW
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None of the above:
The Church CANT be wrong in matters of faith and morals.
If it were:
-The Holy Spirit failed (The HS will guide you into all truth)
-St. Paul lied
-Christ lied
-The bible is wrong in a matter of faith and morals (1 Tim 3:15 - then the Holy Spirit, the divine writer of the bible, lied)
I think ill stick with my choice, that the Church CANT be wrong.
The Church CANT be wrong in matters of faith and morals.
If it were:
-The Holy Spirit failed (The HS will guide you into all truth)
-St. Paul lied
-Christ lied
-The bible is wrong in a matter of faith and morals (1 Tim 3:15 - then the Holy Spirit, the divine writer of the bible, lied)
I think ill stick with my choice, that the Church CANT be wrong.
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I guess, I haven't found anything that I think would be false if there could be errors, as long as the core truths of Christianity are correct. Could you be more specific in which passages (or sources, within sacred tradition) would be contradicted by such an error?
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the church cannot be wrong in matters of faith and morals? what if a pope was wrong in matters of faith and morals? what if a pope were condemned as a heretic?
BTW - according to Vatican I, only Papal Bulls and Briefs are by their nature eligable for consideration as statements of infallibility.
BTW - according to Vatican I, only Papal Bulls and Briefs are by their nature eligable for consideration as statements of infallibility.
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That reminds me, I'm still a little unclear. When someone says "The Catholic Church teaches that...", how exactly do I know whether it's dogma, doctrine, or just devotional, and what were the other categories I forgot?
e.g., let's say I find an "official" Catholic statement on some matter, only I'm *really* sure it's wrong. How do I tell whether this means that the Church is not, in fact, infallible, or only that they have a teaching which needs revision?
e.g., let's say I find an "official" Catholic statement on some matter, only I'm *really* sure it's wrong. How do I tell whether this means that the Church is not, in fact, infallible, or only that they have a teaching which needs revision?
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I seem to recall there's a couple variants on that claim. I've seen convincing counterarguments for several. I guess you'd have to name a pope and the heresy you heard he was accused of to get the details.
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