"inappropriate contentography degrades Women"

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sidhe

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Well yes, relevant, in so much as I'm interested in how you research such companies and how you came to your conclusions about "ease" of sex in the monogamous Judeo-Christian culture etc.
I suppose I'm always interested in how people make ethical decisions. There's always the off-chance I might learn something :)

Oh, that's different. :)

I make my decisions based on the extent to which I a) follow my will, and b) interfere with other peoples. Now, therefore, in this situation, while Girls Gone Wild and the exploitation of drunk college kids is highly distasteful, Belladonna Productions - run by a woman who early in her career had a nervous breakdown on a 20/20 special about inappropriate contentography, who now makes fetish inappropriate contentography and calls for "women, any shape, size, or color, or anyone halfway there via surgery" to audition for her - is fine, because the director/owner really loves what she creates, and I've seen enough of the bloopers to see that there's a positive, fun atmosphere on the sets.

Similarly, I eat a lot of free-range, organic, and fair trade foods. I try to make my own clothes (or buy secondhand). I support good public education and universal health care so that people have an opportunity to do what they want.

I also don't assume that I know what's best for people individually. Each person can make their own decisions and take accountability for their own actions in the end. ;)

My contention is that if more people thought about the ethics or inappropriate contentography and applied the same ethics to it that they do to their everyday life, there would be a significantly diminished market.

Have you seen the working conditions in China? I don't think it'd make a big difference. If people don't care about where their shoes come from (despite their ethical standards), why do you think they'd be concerned about where their inappropriate content comes from?

This pales into insignificance though compared to my next point, which is that if more women knew more about the actual workings of the industry and what it can do to those who "choose wrongly" (out of those who choose freely) there would be a substantially diminished workforce and a significant reduction of suffering and regret.

Be that as it may, you'd have to show the actual workings of the industry (the legitimate industry) rather than the studies of prostitution and illicit operations.

Making it illegal whilst there is still a significant (ie. multi billion dollar) market for it would be a disaster and would increase human suffering.

Sex sells. To make it not sell, you'd have to make it totally unappealing.

Prohibition, as illustrated in your own country, simply teaches a populace that crime pays but organised crime pays really, really well.

^_^

Are you talking about Prohibition, or the war on drugs? ;)
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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I used Prohibition (ie 1920s alcohol prohibition) as to my (untutored) reading on the topic it is the the best documented mistake a nation can make regarding making something illegal and it marks an important point in the history of organised crime.
Re the so-called unwinnable "war on drugs", don't get me started. It seems that people are not willing to learn the lessons of history. The revenue made by scumbags through my own government's persistence to keep easily produced substances illegal is absurd. If I was of a more paranoid mind, I would think there is some sort of conspiracy; but as it stands I think it is merely politicians' hypocrisy and a populace who believe keeping drugs illegal means their kids won't get them. Until of course they do.

Anyhoo, all interesting but off-topic.

People have to make their own decisions, I agree completely. But often people don't have all the information to make such a decision and tend to be unwilling to critical appraise such information if it conflicts with their pleasure. inappropriate content is a particularly insidious example because it is marketed so cleverly and sex is such a powerfully motivating force in human nature. Mix it with money and some people simply don't care if its ethical or not.

You illustrate my point beautifully regarding working conditions in China. If more people knew about such conditions and more people cared enough to vote with their wallet, then working conditions in China would improve.

You obviously have thought about things. Many people simply don't.
 
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sidhe

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I used Prohibition (ie 1920s alcohol prohibition) as to my (untutored) reading on the topic it is the the best documented mistake a nation can make regarding making something illegal and it marks an important point in the history of organised crime.
Re the so-called unwinnable "war on drugs", don't get me started. It seems that people are not willing to learn the lessons of history. The revenue made by scumbags through my own government's persistence to keep easily produced substances illegal is absurd. If I was of a more paranoid mind, I would think there is some sort of conspiracy; but as it stands I think it is merely politicians' hypocrisy and a populace who believe keeping drugs illegal means their kids won't get them. Until of course they do.

Anyhoo, all interesting but off-topic.

People have to make their own decisions, I agree completely. But often people don't have all the information to make such a decision and tend to be unwilling to critical appraise such information if it conflicts with their pleasure. inappropriate content is a particularly insidious example because it is marketed so cleverly and sex is such a powerfully motivating force in human nature. Mix it with money and some people simply don't care if its ethical or not.

You illustrate my point beautifully regarding working conditions in China. If more people knew about such conditions and more people cared enough to vote with their wallet, then working conditions in China would improve.

You obviously have thought about things. Many people simply don't.

The solution then, really, is to teach people to think about things on more than a superficial level and consider the plight of their fellow man - that's what I was driving at. Treating anything else is treating a symptom, not the root cause - greed, selfishness (of the negative kind), lack of empathy, and lack of logical thinking
 
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morningstar2651

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How about I research my own topics, and you research yours. You make lots of wild claims, but you have no substantial evidence.

Have some scholarly research:

The Trials of Frederick Hollick: Obscenity, Sex Education, and Medical Democracy in the Antebellum United States
"Haynes presents the trials of Frederick Hollick and explores the sexual politics inherent in the popular health movement, which dominated discussions of American medicine for the first half of the nineteenth century. Usually understood primarily as a form of widespread resistance to medical professionalization, the movement also developed into the first wave of public sex education in America. Therefore, popular health can properly be understood as a social movement that brought sexuality into the public sphere, often appropriating a medical idiom to challenge conservative sex and gender arrangements."
Perversion for Profit: Citizens for Decent Literature and the Arousal of an Antiinappropriate content Public in the 1960s
"For instance, Janice Irvine has shown how battles over sex education beginning in the 1960s ultimately played into the conservative agenda after conservative leaders distorted the terms of the debate.6 Opposition to inappropriate contentography, too, followed this pattern, as members of the postwar liberal consensus found themselves pinned down by their vigilant defense of civil liberties even as they generally supported obscenity laws and thus unable to respond adequately to conservative attacks.7 CDL led the way in showing conservative politicians how to frame inappropriate contentography as a one-sided issue that demonized any potential opposition and displaced the politics of the New Deal era with polarizing social issues, a tactic numerous New Right politicians eagerly utilized. Though abortion had historically been identified as a Catholic issue, after the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision it became a focal point in the politicization of evangelical Protestants, and by the 1980s opposition to abortion rights resided at the center of conservative politics.152 Simultaneously, the demonization of feminism and the Equal Rights Amendment became a major component of conservative gender politics, as Phyllis Schlafly's Stop-ERA campaign of the mid-1970s warned the world of unisex toilets and women forced into masculinity.153 Finally, homophobia developed as a permanent staple of the New Right in the late 1970s, as several gay rights ordinances were recalled in cities across the nation; Anita Bryant's Save Our Children crusade, which began in 1977, issued baseless threats that young boys could be "turned" gay through "deviant" influences, while conservatives in 1978 attempted to pass a state law preventing homosexuals from teaching in California.154 These themes continued to reverberate through New Right discourse for decades and could still be witnessed in the 2004 election, as President George W. Bush spoke in coded language during the presidential debates to appease antichoice activists, while conservatives sponsored a national moral panic over gay marriage that resulted in several states passing restrictive constitutional amendments."
inappropriate contentography-blocking software may also block health information sites
[Carol Richardson] and colleagues simulated adolescents' searching and browsing on the internet, and compiled results from 24 health information searches and six inappropriate contentography searches. They classified the results as health information or inappropriate contentography, and also identified the top adolescent health information sites. Then, they tested six popular blocking products at three levels of restrictiveness. At the least restrictive setting, configured to block only inappropriate contentography, 89% of inappropriate contentography and only 1.4% of health sites were blocked; at moderate settin 90% of inappropriate contentography sites and 5% of health sites were blocked; at the most restrictive settings, health information blocking increased "substantially" to 24%, but inappropriate contentography blocking increased only slightly, to 91%. There was little variability among products (JAMA 2002; 288: 2887-94).
Letting It All Hang Out: Mardi Gras Performances Live and on Video
Mayer examines Mardi Gras as a commodified spectacle of female nudity in live performance, softcore video, and tourism. Mardi Gras brings together entrepreneurs and consumers in ways that reveal gender, race, and class relations not only in today's U.S. but also in America's consumption of its global Others.
 
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keith99

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Oh, that's different. :)

I make my decisions based on the extent to which I a) follow my will, and b) interfere with other peoples. Now, therefore, in this situation, while Girls Gone Wild and the exploitation of drunk college kids is highly distasteful, Belladonna Productions - run by a woman who early in her career had a nervous breakdown on a 20/20 special about inappropriate contentography, who now makes fetish inappropriate contentography and calls for "women, any shape, size, or color, or anyone halfway there via surgery" to audition for her - is fine, because the director/owner really loves what she creates, and I've seen enough of the bloopers to see that there's a positive, fun atmosphere on the sets.

I know Kristine Imboch (Lorelei is her real name and that part is well known public knowledge) pretty well and through her and Jon Woods (her boyfriend) a lot of other people in the production of fetish films.

All the fetish film producers I have met are both into it themselfs and ethical people. That does not mean all in the industry are. It seems the ethical ones tend to group as do the less ethical ones.

And it seems Fetish reference sites discriminate against men. I should have credits in 3 films, but they never show up. They were all helping out Lorelei and Jon in films that had (for fetish films) large casts. BTW I think they were all for Harmony films, a company I called the 'R' rated fetish company. Bare breasts were as far as they went nuditywise.
 
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sidhe

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I know Kristine Imboch (Lorelei is her real name and that part is well known public knowledge) pretty well and through her and Jon Woods (her boyfriend) a lot of other people in the production of fetish films.

All the fetish film producers I have met are both into it themselfs and ethical people. That does not mean all in the industry are. It seems the ethical ones tend to group as do the less ethical ones.

And it seems Fetish reference sites discriminate against men. I should have credits in 3 films, but they never show up. They were all helping out Lorelei and Jon in films that had (for fetish films) large casts. BTW I think they were all for Harmony films, a company I called the 'R' rated fetish company. Bare breasts were as far as they went nuditywise.

I only ever helped with live shows. All I got was a waived cover charge and a $15 tab at the bar. However, they held them at a bar where I knew the bartender (see an earlier post concerning the total destruction of an apartment...that guy was the bartender) - he considered it to be "All You Could Drink - $10" for me. The other $5 went towards the eventual "I need another pack of smokes." ;)

I made bondage pants out of military surplus gear. They were awesome - the straps were actual towing straps rated at over 5K pounds, and could be used to suspend someone. I lost them. :(
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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How about I research my own topics, and you research yours. You make lots of wild claims, but you have no substantial evidence.

Have some scholarly research:

The Trials of Frederick Hollick: Obscenity, Sex Education, and Medical Democracy in the Antebellum United States
"Haynes presents the trials of Frederick Hollick and explores the sexual politics inherent in the popular health movement, which dominated discussions of American medicine for the first half of the nineteenth century. Usually understood primarily as a form of widespread resistance to medical professionalization, the movement also developed into the first wave of public sex education in America. Therefore, popular health can properly be understood as a social movement that brought sexuality into the public sphere, often appropriating a medical idiom to challenge conservative sex and gender arrangements."
Perversion for Profit: Citizens for Decent Literature and the Arousal of an Antiinappropriate content Public in the 1960s
"For instance, Janice Irvine has shown how battles over sex education beginning in the 1960s ultimately played into the conservative agenda after conservative leaders distorted the terms of the debate.6 Opposition to inappropriate contentography, too, followed this pattern, as members of the postwar liberal consensus found themselves pinned down by their vigilant defense of civil liberties even as they generally supported obscenity laws and thus unable to respond adequately to conservative attacks.7 CDL led the way in showing conservative politicians how to frame inappropriate contentography as a one-sided issue that demonized any potential opposition and displaced the politics of the New Deal era with polarizing social issues, a tactic numerous New Right politicians eagerly utilized. Though abortion had historically been identified as a Catholic issue, after the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision it became a focal point in the politicization of evangelical Protestants, and by the 1980s opposition to abortion rights resided at the center of conservative politics.152 Simultaneously, the demonization of feminism and the Equal Rights Amendment became a major component of conservative gender politics, as Phyllis Schlafly's Stop-ERA campaign of the mid-1970s warned the world of unisex toilets and women forced into masculinity.153 Finally, homophobia developed as a permanent staple of the New Right in the late 1970s, as several gay rights ordinances were recalled in cities across the nation; Anita Bryant's Save Our Children crusade, which began in 1977, issued baseless threats that young boys could be "turned" gay through "deviant" influences, while conservatives in 1978 attempted to pass a state law preventing homosexuals from teaching in California.154 These themes continued to reverberate through New Right discourse for decades and could still be witnessed in the 2004 election, as President George W. Bush spoke in coded language during the presidential debates to appease antichoice activists, while conservatives sponsored a national moral panic over gay marriage that resulted in several states passing restrictive constitutional amendments."
inappropriate contentography-blocking software may also block health information sites
[Carol Richardson] and colleagues simulated adolescents' searching and browsing on the internet, and compiled results from 24 health information searches and six inappropriate contentography searches. They classified the results as health information or inappropriate contentography, and also identified the top adolescent health information sites. Then, they tested six popular blocking products at three levels of restrictiveness. At the least restrictive setting, configured to block only inappropriate contentography, 89% of inappropriate contentography and only 1.4% of health sites were blocked; at moderate settin 90% of inappropriate contentography sites and 5% of health sites were blocked; at the most restrictive settings, health information blocking increased "substantially" to 24%, but inappropriate contentography blocking increased only slightly, to 91%. There was little variability among products (JAMA 2002; 288: 2887-94).
Letting It All Hang Out: Mardi Gras Performances Live and on Video
Mayer examines Mardi Gras as a commodified spectacle of female nudity in live performance, softcore video, and tourism. Mardi Gras brings together entrepreneurs and consumers in ways that reveal gender, race, and class relations not only in today's U.S. but also in America's consumption of its global Others.
Well done.
You win the irrelevance trophy for non-contribution 2009.

The above may be evidence. What it is actually of is another matter.
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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The solution then, really, is to teach people to think about things on more than a superficial level and consider the plight of their fellow man - that's what I was driving at. Treating anything else is treating a symptom, not the root cause - greed, selfishness (of the negative kind), lack of empathy, and lack of logical thinking

Exactly. Where did I ever suggest anything else?
You are obviously mistaking me for someone who takes a prohibitionist stance because I happen to see the damage that the industry causes to many people involved in it.

inappropriate content invovles people engaging in sexual acts that, at least part of the time they do not want but will perform if they are getting paid.
There is plenty of anecdotal testimony regarding the damage this causes some of those people who "made the wrong choice".
There are peer-reviewed studies that show a significant increase above control population for DSM defined psychiatric disorders in women who engage in sex they do not want for financial reward in prostitution.
We haven't spoken yet about the prevelance of (in some cases potentially fatal) diseases such as Hep B, HIV and cervical cancer that are known to be increased by sex without condoms. A practice that even the high end, shiny legitimate inappropriate content companies perpetuate.

Greed, lack of empathy, selfishness and lack of critical thinking all play a significant part for many in maintaining their patronage of a substantial amount of inappropriate content.
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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And yes, there may be times when I would want to be intimate with my significant other even if he were not in the mood & I am sure he would admit to vice versa. There are times we do things for each other out of need or consideration, not desire.

And that's exactly the same as inappropriate content isn't it?
That isn't even an answer to the question I asked.

Regarding the consumer not having any ethical responsibility ... well that's your opinion. I think it's fair to point out that such an attitude lacks a certain degree of empathy though.
 
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sidhe

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I'm doing a little reading this morning. This one is pretty long but worth a look. It's not only the article but the referances provide a good reading list. Unfortunately, I don't have the time today.

inappropriate contentography as a public health issue
http://ped.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/15/1/11

Decent article, but for one issue: it equates "inappropriate contentography user" with "man," and makes a number of other assumptions concerning the viewing of erotic material. I think this article:

Lubey, K. (2006, Summer2006). Spectacular Sex: Thought and Pleasure in the Encounter with inappropriate contentography. Differences: A Journal of Feminist Cultural Studies, 17(2), 113-131. Retrieved March 22, 2009, doi:10.1215/10407391-2006-005

It's not available without a subscription, unfortunately, but it addresses the idea of the stereotypical inappropriate contentography viewer.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Yeah, the Victorian myth of essentially asexual women becoming victimized by predatory, hirsute males on the prowl still perpetuates itself. Today, being male is almost universally equated with being sexually aggressive.

Funny, really, if we consider that up to the 19th century, literature focused on the "harlot"-aspect of femininity rather than the "perpetual virgin": European literature, philosophy and theology from antiquity to early modern times is riddled with references to woman-as-temptress, corrupter of men, gateway of hell, source of sin. Virtually every church father commented negatively on the subject of women - as did a number of "classic" philosophers such as Aristotle (who essentially considered women "defunct" men of little use, who lacked the "life force" to push out their inverted penises - honestly!) or Galen (who thought that the uterus was a parasitic animal infesting female nether parts, making women act erratically and irrationally).
 
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ApostateForGoodReason

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My only issue is that the consent dynamic in sex should be based on the fact that both parties want to have sex.
Would you like to have sex with someone who freely admitted that they did not want to have sex with you?

This is the question you asked & I did answer it. I do not have an issue with people consenting for reasons other than desire. There are situations I can imagine in which I would have relations with an undesiring & yet, consenting partner.
 
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ApostateForGoodReason

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Regarding the consumer not having any ethical responsibility ... well that's your opinion. I think it's fair to point out that such an attitude lacks a certain degree of empathy though.

I said nothing about ethical responsibility. I said consumers nor employers are responsible for the emotional or psychological health of people who choose their work - whatever work that may be.

I don't find inappropriate contentography to be neccesarily unethical. If I found it to be so & chose to do nothing - then you could tell me I lack empathy.
 
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sidhe

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Yeah, the Victorian myth of essentially asexual women becoming victimized by predatory, hirsute males on the prowl still perpetuates itself. Today, being male is almost universally equated with being sexually aggressive.

Funny, really, if we consider that up to the 19th century, literature focused on the "harlot"-aspect of femininity rather than the "perpetual virgin": European literature, philosophy and theology from antiquity to early modern times is riddled with references to woman-as-temptress, corrupter of men, gateway of hell, source of sin. Virtually every church father commented negatively on the subject of women - as did a number of "classic" philosophers such as Aristotle (who essentially considered women "defunct" men of little use, who lacked the "life force" to push out their inverted penises - honestly!) or Galen (who thought that the uterus was a parasitic animal infesting female nether parts, making women act erratically and irrationally).

That's really a big part of the issue - the women in inappropriate contentography are seen as victims, in part, because they can't possibly want to do any of those things. Therefor, there must be an element of coercion, they must be being manipulated and abused, and someone needs to help them, because they can't help themselves. The view is really just a continuance of the virgin-harlot stereotype - any woman worth saving is involved unwillingly, and any woman involved willingly isn't worth saving.

My partner pulled up an interesting article yesterday which mentioned that a high-end stripper at a classy establishment can easily make $100K a year, and some make in the neighborhood of $300K. For dancing without clothes, something I would do for free because I find it incredibly fun, save I don't look like a stripper, and I'm phenomenally uncoordinated.

ETA: Not, IMHO, that anyone needs saving from anything. People are capable of their own decisions.
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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I said nothing about ethical responsibility. I said consumers nor employers are responsible for the emotional or psychological health of people who choose their work - whatever work that may be.
Read those sentences through a couple of times. Hear that noise?

What exactly do you regard as the ethical responsibility a consumer to the workforce who provide the goods or service?
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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This is the question you asked & I did answer it. I do not have an issue with people consenting for reasons other than desire. There are situations I can imagine in which I would have relations with an undesiring & yet, consenting partner.

That is indeed the question I asked? Why didn't you post the answer you gave as well?

Fortunately Alzheimer's hasn't set in yet, so I'll paraphrase it.
You said there are conceivably times when you may want to have sex but your significant other may not and that sometimes motivation for having sex could be consideration or love.

Hmmm. Not really what we are talking about is it? Absolutely nothing to do with the consent dynamic in inappropriate content and not an answer to my question.
Do you ever pay your "significant other" to have sex with you?
 
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Oneofthediaspora

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... the women in inappropriate contentography are seen as victims, in part, because they can't possibly want to do any of those things. Therefor, there must be an element of coercion, they must be being manipulated and abused, and someone needs to help them, because they can't help themselves. The view is really just a continuance of the virgin-harlot stereotype - any woman worth saving is involved unwillingly, and any woman involved willingly isn't worth saving.

Oh yeah?
Who's attitude is this exactly?

My attitude is as follows (again) a lot of people make very bad choices in life at a very early age. For many, these can have serious detrimental long-term effects. I don't want to provide the financial incentive for such people to make these choices. I suspect I'm not alone in this. A lot of people who consume inappropriate content never, ever get to speak to someone who has been involved in the industry about what goes on. Except maybe through fanboy websites and AVN awards, which I suspect you would agree is nothing more than an arm of marketing.

Now, do you have any peer-reviewed studies to suggest that there is any evidence that this psychological attitude you describe is in any way representative? Until then it is nothing but conjecture and therefore something to be dismissed as the sort of theory one might pick up from reading rather biased and agenda-driven books.
 
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sidhe

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Oh yeah?
Who's attitude is this exactly?

My attitude is as follows (again) a lot of people make very bad choices in life at a very early age. For many, these can have serious detrimental long-term effects. I don't want to provide the financial incentive for such people to make these choices. I suspect I'm not alone in this. A lot of people who consume inappropriate content never, ever get to speak to someone who has been involved in the industry about what goes on. Except maybe through fanboy websites and AVN awards, which I suspect you would agree is nothing more than an arm of marketing.

Now, do you have any peer-reviewed studies to suggest that there is any evidence that this psychological attitude you describe is in any way representative? Until then it is nothing but conjecture and therefore something to be dismissed as the sort of theory one might pick up from reading rather biased and agenda-driven books.

Again, your view is also purely conjecture. ;)

And read the paper by Luben I cited earlier, it touches on the multiple levels of sexism that end up being inherent in any research into inappropriate contentography. So, in this case, at least, mine isn't purely conjecture. It's sexism against men as much as women - women are victims in inappropriate contentography, and men are unthinking, unfeeling, idiotic brutes who have zero self-control and use inappropriate contentography to justify their inherent desire to dominate and rape women. Luben merely confronts the fact that people are individuals capable of both fully-reasoned decisions and suspension of disbelief, and generally are not sociopaths.

Also, were I talking about you, I'd have addressed you. I'm not keen on sidelong comments.
 
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