A Question to Pre Tribbers

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Tamara224

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Ooops...looks like I've got myself in a mess here...should've known better, lol.

Maybe I should just quietly tip toe away?

The point is, I really don't know if people who are dead can exist as spirits apart from their bodies.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So spirit and dust together become a living soul,
so a dead soul must be dust without the spirit?

Hmm....so can the dead exist apart from their bodies (now dust)??

Bob Frantz

Well, this type of reasoning is interesting, but what does Scripture say about it?


1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. (2 Corinthians 5)

21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Philippians 1)

13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. (2 Peter 1)

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). In it both Lazarus and the rich man died and were buried and they went to Sheol. They existed apart from their bodies. (Keep in mind that this story happened before Jesus rose again and 1 Cor 15 tells us that Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the resurrection - meaning that Jesus was the very first person to be resurrected in an imperishable body.)
 
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zeke37

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Your question is based on two assumptions, neither of which is correct.

By assumptions, I mean conclusions based on what you obviously think that words say, but which they do not actually say.

The first of these is that the Lord comes to the earth in 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Yhe passage in question says nothing about him actually touching down on the surface of the earth. Instead, it says we meet him in the air. He comes to the earth when he comes in power and glory. But this is not stated, and the opposite is implied, in 1 Thess 4.
certainly, the promise to all of us Christians, the HOPE part, is a resurrected life on earth....verse13-14 set the time frame as when the dead are raised, and prove that they come to earth, 'cause it is our Hope, told multiple times.

The second of these assumptions is that this is the same event as that described in Mark 1:26-27.

In 1 Thes 4, the Lord Himself comes, and there is no word of angels even being involved. In Mark 13, the gathering is done by angels.

This only two of the many (somewhere around 20 or thirty) distinct differences between the two future comings of the Lord described in scripture.
Gathering to Christ, between those from heaven, and those alive on earth....

sounds like the same time to me!
 
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Bobgf

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Well, this type of reasoning is interesting, but what does Scripture say about it?


1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7We live by faith, not by sight. 8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.9So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. (2 Corinthians 5)

21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (Philippians 1)

13I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. (2 Peter 1)

Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). In it both Lazarus and the rich man died and were buried and they went to Sheol. They existed apart from their bodies. (Keep in mind that this story happened before Jesus rose again and 1 Cor 15 tells us that Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the resurrection - meaning that Jesus was the very first person to be resurrected in an imperishable body.)

Yep, I've been down that road. I've seen those very same passages of scripture discussed before, pages and pages ad nauseam and without much resolution. lol.
 
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Tamara224

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Yep, I've been down that road. I've seen those very same passages of scripture discussed before, pages and pages ad nauseam and without much resolution. lol.

So, what are you saying? That the answer is unknowable because foolish people foolishly argue against the plain meaning of Scripture?

Seriously. This is lame. The verses are unambiguous. A person would have to be taught how to misunderstand them.
 
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Biblewriter

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certainly, the promise to all of us Christians, the HOPE part, is a resurrected life on earth....verse13-14 set the time frame as when the dead are raised, and prove that they come to earth, 'cause it is our Hope, told multiple times.


Gathering to Christ, between those from heaven, and those alive on earth....

sounds like the same time to me!

You are getting farther and farther from the truth (hence the headline, from the children's game of hide and seek).

There is not even one scripture in the entire Bible that says that God promises us a resurrected life on this earth. This is, in fact, diametrically opposed to the promise of John 14:2-3, "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
 
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zeke37

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You are getting farther and farther from the truth (hence the headline, from the children's game of hide and seek).

There is not even one scripture in the entire Bible that says that God promises us a resurrected life on this earth.
ok then....wow, are you serious? I guess we really are pretty far apart in understanding.

This is, in fact, diametrically opposed to the promise of John 14:2-3, "In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

so where is Christ going to be??? why, here...forever and ever....

And where is His Father's house? You assume (you love using that word) that it is JUST heaven...the heaven of today...but we know that heaven shall be here with earth...a rejuvinated earth, where God will live with His children forever

Christ was IMO also speaking of a Spiritual undestanding...a place in thinking and love, that we can come to...Christianity...

Christ left to prepare that reality...where like minds can be together with Him....(where ever that is physically) and that reality has it's conclusion right here on earth...

it is a state of being....

what were you trying to show me? You said, No promise of a resurrection on earth? Are you serious? really?
 
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zeke37

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where is Christ Coming to?


23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

4 winds, as in Rev7...
where are these 4 winds blowing, earth right? and who is the 144,000 sealed and where are they sealed? Earth right?
and where is Christ seen with those virgins? On Mt Zion right?
and is'nt there a great earthquake when His feet touch the ground, that makes a way for the elect to go to Him???

every mountain shakes...



na, it's here on earth
 
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Ghost air

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where is Christ Coming to?

...na, it's here on earth

I agree that Christ is coming to earth when He returns from the wedding...

Don't you zeke... ?

If we make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God, then we can see that Christ is coming to meet His church in the air, to take them into the wedding, and that He will be coming with these saints when He comes to deliver Israel.
 
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zeke37

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I agree that Christ is coming to earth when He returns from the wedding...

Don't you zeke... ?

uhhh, no!...the Wedding is held here on earth, at Mt Zion, with ALL of the elect...both those dead in Christ who come from heaven with Him, and those elect alive on earth who they are joined to.... The firstfruits.

when they are Gathered together.....here. You thiunk the marriage happens before He returns, while I know that the marriage happens when some of those many waters are gathered to Him at His return.

no pre trib sorry! Been there, done that.

If we make a distinction between the Israel of God and the church of God, then we can see that Christ is coming to meet His church in the air, to take them into the wedding, and that He will be coming with these saints when He comes to deliver Israel.
I realize you opinion, but you must understand that there is no distinction between the God of Israel and the church. There is but ONE GOD. Any promise that God makes, He keeps...whether it be to Ancient Israel's descendants or to the Believers in Christ(who for many, are the same...)

the gathering of Israel, is the gathering of the elect firstfruits, detailed for us in Rev7. they are believers in Christ before the 4 winds blow the tribulation...there are 12,000 Messianic Jews.... NOT 144,000 converted JEWS....and they are Sealed before the trib winds blowing begins.

who ever taught you that the Coming in Mar13:24-27 is not the same as the gathering of the elect church members,1Thes4:13-18 was wrong. It is at the same time. It is with the DEAD in Christ that He comes, not some fantasy pre trib group.
 
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Ghost air

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uhhh, no!...the Wedding is held here on earth.

zeke... it's obvious that your opinion and my own differ as to where the wedding is.

I simply believe it's in heaven because of many reasons which I have already shared... and I understand your opinion that the wedding is on earth... I simply disagree...

We can leave it at that.
 
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