A Question to Pre Tribbers

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zeke37

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if you use 1Thes4:17's "harpazō" as a pre trib event, then how do you explain the dead coming with God at that time....for the resurrection as promised in verses 13-14.

G726
ἁρπάζω

har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.


14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

Ghost air

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if you use 1Thes4:17's "harpazō" as a pre trib event, then how do you explain the dead coming with God at that time....for the resurrection as promised in verses 13-14.

Not sure what you're asking exactly zeke... but it says that the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST and that those who are alive and remain will be caught up TOGETHER with them to meet the Lord in the AIR.

The dead IN CHRIST applies to Christians...
 
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Tamara224

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pre tribbers say that 1Thes4's "caught up" is the pre trib rapture.

How can that be the pre trib rapture, if the Dead are Coming with God as promised in verses13-14 for the Resurrection

wouldn't that be the post trib rapture?

:confused: I still don't understand what you're asking.

Are you saying there aren't any dead Christians before the Tribulation?


 
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zeke37

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ok...it's really not that hard of a question...

first...are you pre trib?


second, do you believe that the catching up to Christ, taught of in 1Thes4:17, is pre tribulation(before the antiChrist and tribulation hour), or post tribulation (after), or somewhere in the middle?





third, if you are pre trib, and you do believe that the catching up in 1Thes4:17 is pre trib...before the antiChrist and tribulation hour, then what about the promise of God, about the dead coming back to earth for the resurrection in 1Thes4:13-14...which is the beginning of the subject matter for our discussion.

verses13-14 make this teaching about the catching up to Christ, to be at post trib, not pre trib...

and I wanted some opinions about that.





and virtually ALL of the pre tribbers that I have conversed with over the years, claim this as a pre trib even...while I claim that it is a post trib even bcause of verse 13,14....


so, when do the dead get raised? pre trib or post trib?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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both, Zeke.

Those who are resurrected and raptured in the 5th seal before wrath begins in the 6th seal have endured the tribulation that began when Christ ascended and continues to this day. Those who are tested through the wrath of God will be resurrected (but not raptured) after Christ comes and destroys the evil, binds the devil which is after the 7th seal.
 
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zeke37

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13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



is this pre trib or post trib?
 
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HisdaughterJen

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I just wanted a strait answer....

wow




when the dead believers are brought back to earth for their resurrection in 1Thes4:13-14, is that a pre trib event? or is that a post trib event

it cannot be both.

It is post trib...meaning AFTER 2000 years since Christ and BEFORE the 1260 day wrath of God during the first 3 1/2 years of the millennium.
 
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Hockey_Fan

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I just wanted a strait answer....

wow




when the dead believers are brought back to earth for their resurrection in 1Thes4:13-14, is that a pre trib event? or is that a post trib event

it cannot be both.

Pre-trib.

Jen defines 'tribulation' a little bit differently, that 'tribulation' is occuring now.
 
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Tamara224

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ok...it's really not that hard of a question...

Well, I'm sure that in your head it seems simple... but you're not communicating it very well. I cannot read your mind, you have to fill in the blanks. :)

first...are you pre trib?


second, do you believe that the catching up to Christ, taught of in 1Thes4:17, is pre tribulation(before the antiChrist and tribulation hour), or post tribulation (after), or somewhere in the middle?

That's the same question asked twice.

The answer to both is that I lean towards the belief in a pre-Tribulation rapture.



third, if you are pre trib, and you do believe that the catching up in 1Thes4:17 is pre trib...before the antiChrist and tribulation hour, then what about the promise of God, about the dead coming back to earth for the resurrection in 1Thes4:13-14...which is the beginning of the subject matter for our discussion.


I believe the verses speak for themselves.

16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

They describe the dead coming back with Christ to be raised first and the living caught up in the air (i.e. raptured) with them to meed Christ in the air.


verses13-14 make this teaching about the catching up to Christ, to be at post trib, not pre trib...

Those verses say absolutely nothing about the Tribulation and therefore absolutely nothing about whether the rapture takes place before or after the Tribulation. Those verses only say that both the dead and living are raptured. They don't say when.


and virtually ALL of the pre tribbers that I have conversed with over the years, claim this as a pre trib even...while I claim that it is a post trib even bcause of verse 13,14....

What I don't understand about your position is how you're making the leap from the dead being raised first to that equaling a post-trib rapture. There's no logical connection there between the two.


so, when do the dead get raised? pre trib or post trib?

The dead in Christ at the time of the rapture get raised pre-trib. Those who die in Christ during the Tribulation get raised post-trib.
 
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zeke37

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Pre-trib.

Jen defines 'tribulation' a little bit differently, that 'tribulation' is occuring now.
so then, you think that the promise made to us Christians, about the dead in Christ....a teaching that we are to have hope in....about God coming here and bringing the dead here to be raised to life on earth..., mentioned in verses13-14, happens before the antiChrist comes?

you think that the dead are raised/ressurected to life on earth BEFORE the antiChrist and the tribulationhour?
really?
ok...it's really not that hard of a question...
Well, I'm sure that in your head it seems simple... but you're not communicating it very well. I cannot read your mind, you have to fill in the blanks. :)

sorry, my apologies.
first...are you pre trib?


second, do you believe that the catching up to Christ, taught of in 1Thes4:17, is pre tribulation(before the antiChrist and tribulation hour), or post tribulation (after), or somewhere in the middle?
That's the same question asked twice.
well, I asked it the first time, but obviously not well enough.

The answer to both is that I lean towards the belief in a pre-Tribulation rapture.
third, if you are pre trib, and you do believe that the catching up in 1Thes4:17 is pre trib...before the antiChrist and tribulation hour, then what about the promise of God, about the dead coming back to earth for the resurrection in 1Thes4:13-14...which is the beginning of the subject matter for our discussion.


I believe the verses speak for themselves.
so if they speak for themselves, then how do you think that the time of their raising is pre tribulation?

wouldn't their raising be the same time as the other mentionings of the raising/resurrection that happens after the tribulation??? Say in Mar13:24-27 to name but one? Post trib?

wouldn't 1Thes4:13-18 coincide with Mar13:24-27?



They describe the dead coming back with Christ to be raised first and the living caught up in the air (i.e. raptured) with them to meed Christ in the air.
so you think that the dead need to be raised first...and gathered with the alive elect, and then leave the planet for the tribulation, back to presumably heaven....and then come back after, right?


reason with me...


where are the dead before that time? until then? They are in HEAVEN with Him...1Thes4:13-14...and many other places...

1Cor15 teaches that they(the dead) already have a body in heaven...a heavenly body...or spirit/"pneuma" in Greek (like pneumatic tires)...see the connection to "air"...it is the spiritual/heavenly body...

when you die, you get that body...that's what you exist with in heaven...


verses13-14 (1Thes4) makes it clear that the dead COME WITH HIM from heaven for the promise to be raised....on earth.

they are already with Him in heaven before this...and waiting to come back...and they are already in that spiritual/air body that souls have in heaven, and their promise is to be raised to life again, on earth forever...in that same body...the mystery change of 1Cor15.

raised here on earth again...that is the promise...and that promise of the resurrection is shown in scripture over and over again, as you know...and it is always post tribulation.

now, when do the dead get raised to life on earth again??? post trib, just as this teaches.
verses13-14 make this teaching about the catching up to Christ, to be at post trib, not pre trib...
Those verses say absolutely nothing about the Tribulation and therefore absolutely nothing about whether the rapture takes place before or after the Tribulation. Those verses only say that both the dead and living are raptured. They don't say when.
they say that the rapture is at the same time as the elect dead are raised to life on earth. A gathering between..those in heaven/the dead in Christ...and those on earth/alive at that time
to be gathered into a great cloud of witnesses(Heb11-12);

just as in Mar13:24-27.

the elect alive, are changed (avoiding physical death) into that spiritual body/air, at that time(1Cor15)....for the gathering...also known as the rapture...which is when the dead are raised to life on earth again, as is OUR promise....hence the OP.

and virtually ALL of the pre tribbers that I have conversed with over the years, claim this as a pre trib even...while I claim that it is a post trib even bcause of verse 13,14....
What I don't understand about your position is how you're making the leap from the dead being raised first to that equaling a post-trib rapture. There's no logical connection there between the two.
I think I explained that well enough above.

read Mar13:24-27...that is what is happening here.
so, when do the dead get raised? pre trib or post trib?
The dead in Christ at the time of the rapture get raised pre-trib. Those who die in Christ during the Tribulation get raised post-trib.
interesting, not that I agree... I think that is tradition of men/women. No offense, as I held that view for a time.
 
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Biblewriter

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Your question is based on two assumptions, neither of which is correct.

By assumptions, I mean conclusions based on what you obviously think that words say, but which they do not actually say.

The first of these is that the Lord comes to the earth in 1 Thess. 4:13-18. Yhe passage in question says nothing about him actually touching down on the surface of the earth. Instead, it says we meet him in the air. He comes to the earth when he comes in power and glory. But this is not stated, and the opposite is implied, in 1 Thess 4.

The second of these assumptions is that this is the same event as that described in Mark 1:26-27.

In 1 Thes 4, the Lord Himself comes, and there is no word of angels even being involved. In Mark 13, the gathering is done by angels.

This only two of the many (somewhere around 20 or thirty) distinct differences between the two future comings of the Lord described in scripture.
 
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Bobgf

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Tamara224 said:
I believe the verses speak for themselves.


16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


They describe the dead coming back with Christ to be raised first and the living caught up in the air (i.e. raptured)with them to meed Christ in the air.

Tamara, I think I understand what you are saying. I've long puzzled over this passage, 1Thes 4:14-17, and haven't yet successfully resolved the issue in my mind.

Now 1Thes 4:14 says that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

So I see two possible scenarios:
1. Jesus will bring with him a previously resurrected group, or
2. Jesus will bring with him the group now resurrected in v16

Well, you can't "bring" someone who is already there. So in order to "bring" someone, that someone has to first "leave".
So for Jesus to "bring" those in v16 with him, Jesus must first "leave" with that group resurrected in v16.

This turn around, first "leaving" with the saints of v16, then "bringing" these same v16 saints, to then resurrect the living saints in v17 will require a finite amount of time. This time gap between v16 and v17 may be only microseconds or it could be years. From these verses alone, we cannot know how long this period will be.

Bob Frantz
 
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Tamara224

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well, I asked it the first time, but obviously not well enough.


Your thread is called "A question for pre-tribbers". Obviously, by attempting to answer it, I am saying that I'm a pre-tribber.


so if they speak for themselves, then how do you think that the time of their raising is pre tribulation?

Because of other passages in Scripture. My belief is not based on one proof text.

wouldn't their raising be the same time as the other mentionings of the raising/resurrection that happens after the tribulation??? Say in Mar13:24-27 to name but one? Post trib?
wouldn't 1Thes4:13-18 coincide with Mar13:24-27?


24"But in those days, following that distress,
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

26"At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.



This passage says nothing about a "catching up". It describes a different event than the one described in 1 Thessalonians. It doesn't even say that the elect are being resurrected at that time - only that they're being gathered. It also says that Christ sends His angels to gather the elect... In 1 Thes 4 it says that the dead and alive in Christ raise to meet Him in the air.


IMHO, it's describing an entirely different event.



so you think that the dead need to be raised first...and gathered with the alive elect, and then leave the planet for the tribulation, back to presumably heaven....and then come back after, right?

I wouldn't say they "need" to. Scripture says they will, though.

Even post-tribbers must logically believe that those who are raptured go meet Jesus in the air and then come back after.

Because that's what the verses plainly say - that we meet the Lord in the air.

Why are you making this so complicated?


reason with me...

I've been trying to...


where are the dead before that time? until then? They are in HEAVEN with Him...1Thes4:13-14...and many other places...

Pre-tribbers agree that the spirits of the dead are either with Christ in Heaven awaiting the resurrection or "sleeping" until that time. (I believe they are in Heaven).


1Cor15 teaches that they(the dead) already have a body in heaven...a heavenly body...or spirit/"pneuma" in Greek (like pneumatic tires)...see the connection to "air"...it is the spiritual/heavenly body...

when you die, you get that body...that's what you exist with in heaven...

:scratch: Wow! So many false assumptions in that little statement.

Let's look at 1 Corinthians 15 and see what it really says:

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
***
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead.
***
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
This is clearly describing a future event. The dead will be (not "have been" but "will be") raised when Christ comes. The dead have not been given their resurrection (imprishable) bodies yet because the resurrection has not happened.


verses13-14 (1Thes4) makes it clear that the dead COME WITH HIM from heaven for the promise to be raised....on earth.
they are already with Him in heaven before this...and waiting to come back...and they are already in that spiritual/air body that souls have in heaven, and their promise is to be raised to life again, on earth forever...in that same body...the mystery change of 1Cor15.

:doh: You're making no sense at all. Why would the dead come back with God to be resurrected if they already had their resurrection bodies? That's ridiculous. And it doesn't line up with what Scripture clearly says.

Are you saying that you think the dead are given temporary bodies in heaven while they wait for their imperishable bodies?

I can't even begin to imagine where you came up with that idea. It certainly isn't found in Scripture.


raised here on earth again...that is the promise...and that promise of the resurrection is shown in scripture over and over again, as you know...and it is always post tribulation.

Yeah, I agree that the promise of the resurrection is shown in Scripture. I don't understand what you're thinking - Do you think that pre-tribbers don't believe in the resurrection? If so, you are seriously lacking in understanding.

The rapture is the same event as the resurrection of the dead in Christ. That is the same event in which we will be given our imperishable (i.e. spiritual) bodies as described in 1 Cor 15.


now, when do the dead get raised to life on earth again??? post trib, just as this teaches.

they say that the rapture is at the same time as the elect dead are raised to life on earth. A gathering between..those in heaven/the dead in Christ...and those on earth/alive at that time


First: As what teaches? Who are you quoting here? That's not Scripture.

Second: That doesn't say squat about the timing of the rapture. Again, all it says is that the living and the dead are both raptured together. It doesn't say when.


to be gathered into a great cloud of witnesses(Heb11-12);

Um... okay.

just as in Mar13:24-27.

Again, Mark 13 doesn't describe the rapture at all - it says nothing about the resurrection, only talks about gathering the elect.

the elect alive, are changed (avoiding physical death) into that spiritual body/air, at that time(1Cor15)....for the gathering...also known as the rapture...which is when the dead are raised to life on earth again, as is OUR promise....hence the OP.

Listen, I really don't know why you have it in your head that pre-tribbers don't take hope in the promise of the resurrection.

I don't understand why you think that believing it happens prior to the tribulation has any bearing whatsoever on our believing that the dead are resurrected.

Nor do I understand how you're making the leap in logic to get from point A (the dead are raised first) to point B (post trib rapture). There's no logical connection.

So, either you're not explaining yourself very well or you don't really understand what the heck you're talking about.



I think I explained that well enough above.

read Mar13:24-27...that is what is happening here.


Well, if you explained it the best you can, then you are apparently blind to the gaping holes in your position.

interesting, not that I agree... I think that is tradition of men/women. No offense, as I held that view for a time.

Of course you once "held that view". Everyone I've ever argued with about pre-trib rapture says they "once held that view". None of them ever show an ability to articulate accurately the position, though, so I presume that either they never understood it in the first place or they never really did "hold that view."
 
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Tamara224

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Tamara, I think I understand what you are saying. I've long puzzled over this passage, 1Thes 4:14-17, and haven't yet successfully resolved the issue in my mind.

Now 1Thes 4:14 says that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

So I see two possible scenarios:
1. Jesus will bring with him a previously resurrected group, or
2. Jesus will bring with him the group now resurrected in v16

Well, you can't "bring" someone who is already there. So in order to "bring" someone, that someone has to first "leave".
So for Jesus to "bring" those in v16 with him, Jesus must first "leave" with that group resurrected in v16.

Why are you assuming that those who come with Jesus are already resurrected?

Isn't it much less complicated to conclude that those Christ brings with Him are the dead which are about to be resurrected?


The verses say that they are coming back in order to be resurrected.

Exactly.

The dead in Christ are spirits in Heaven. They (in spirit form) come with Christ and they are then resurrected - spirit and new imperishable bodies united.


This turn around, first "leaving" with the saints of v16, then "bringing" these same v16 saints, to then resurrect the living saints in v17 will require a finite amount of time. This time gap between v16 and v17 may be only microseconds or it could be years. From these verses alone, we cannot know how long this period will be.

:confused: Living saints can't be resurrected - we are changed but not resurrected. By definition resurrection means that one was dead and comes back to life. In 1 Cor 15 Paul explained that the living are "changed" at the same time (or immediately after) the dead are raised (resurrected).
 
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Bobgf

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Why are you assuming that those who come with Jesus are already resurrected?

Isn't it much less complicated to conclude that those Christ brings with Him are the dead which are about to be resurrected?




Exactly.

The dead in Christ are spirits in Heaven. They (in spirit form) come with Christ and they are then resurrected - spirit and new imperishable bodies united.




:confused: Living saints can't be resurrected - we are changed but not resurrected. By definition resurrection means that one was dead and comes back to life. In 1 Cor 15 Paul explained that the living are "changed" at the same time (or immediately after) the dead are raised (resurrected).


OK, it looks like we should amend 1Thes 4:14 from this:

1Thes 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.


To this:

1Thes 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those [spirits] who have fallen asleep in him.


There, that should do it.

Bob Frantz
 
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Tamara224

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OK, it looks like we should amend 1Thes 4:14 from this:

1Thes 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.


To this:

1Thes 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those [spirits] who have fallen asleep in him.


There, that should do it.

Bob Frantz

Oh, I see. You were being disingenuous when you said you didn't have it figured out yet. What you really meant when you said that you didn't have the issue resolved in your mind was that you do already have the issue resolved in your mind and you won't consider any other possibilities besides the resolution you've already come to. Very good.

How about we change the verse to read the way you're eisegeting it:

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him [and have been resurrected already because only those with bodies can come with Jesus, people who are dead can't exist as spirits apart from their bodies].

Or how about we don't add anything to the verse itself and simply discuss it?

How about you just answer my questions, posed in an attempt at honest discussion, instead of lashing out at me with mockery when my questions ask you to think through what you've written?
That's probably way too much to ask.
 
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Bobgf

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Oh, I see. You were being disingenuous when you said you didn't have it figured out yet. What you really meant when you said that you didn't have the issue resolved in your mind was that you do already have the issue resolved in your mind and you won't consider any other possibilities besides the resolution you've already come to. Very good.

How about we change the verse to read the way you're eisegeting it:

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him [and have been resurrected already because only those with bodies can come with Jesus, people who are dead can't exist as spirits apart from their bodies].

Or how about we don't add anything to the verse itself and simply discuss it?

How about you just answer my questions, posed in an attempt at honest discussion, instead of lashing out at me with mockery when my questions ask you to think through what you've written?
That's probably way too much to ask.

Ooops...looks like I've got myself in a mess here...should've known better, lol.

Maybe I should just quietly tip toe away?

The point is, I really don't know if people who are dead can exist as spirits apart from their bodies.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So spirit and dust together become a living soul,
so a dead soul must be dust without the spirit?

Hmm....so can the dead exist apart from their bodies (now dust)??

Bob Frantz
 
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