Underground Latter Day Saints

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talitha

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No, it wasn't outreach international, but I have a problem with that one too, since it doesn't make it clear that they are LDS or RLDS or whatever on their front page. There are a lot of people who could be drawn in by that page, and I'm sure that is the intent. When I was in college I had LDS friends who used to kid around about involuntary baptisms..... Now I realize that's not funny.......
 
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JasonV

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What I'm about to say won't do Talitha any good, but I'm interested to learn that the FLDS do call themselves "Mormons." And while we are at it, do the various Josephite groups do that too?

We agree that other groupings of Latter-Day Saints do not, so I'm wondering if this has to do with their perspecticve on where they came from. By that I mean, the RLDS and some others never wanted to be confused with the LDS because they considered Brigham Young to be a usurper, or something like that. The RLDS of course has always maintained--with some success--that it is the original. But the FLDS may think that they are the traditionalists carrying on what the Utah church formerly did before it went astray, etc.

That would make them -- I'm thinking -- likely to call themselves by the term "Mormon" rather thabn surrender it to the LDS.

Of course I'm just thinking aloud, but does any of this sound correct from what you know?

You're spot on there bro. Those who split off from groups which recognized Brigham Young as the legitimate successor still refer to themselves as "Mormons". This includes the likes of the FLDS, the old LeBaron clan, the Allreds, Kingstons, and various "Independent Mormon Fundamentalists".
 
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Room4all

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I'm sorry for complicating matters. Since I live in Utah, I am more likely to encounter FLDS (who refer to themselves as Mormons) than RLDS. Probably in Honduras that would not be the case! :blush:


Talitha, I came across the site studyChristianity.com recently, which reminds me of what you wrote about in your OP. The site appears to be teaching Christianity in general, when really it is teaching about Mormonism. It just isn't very upfront about.

I visited your link. It seems pretty upfront to me. All you have to do is go to the about tab or read the apologetics and its right there infront of you.

I get the sense you feel they are trying to hide mormonism by calling themselves christians.

I don't believe that to be true. They are christians who have aligned themselves with the LDS church, another christian organization.
 
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talitha

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I visited your link. It seems pretty upfront to me. All you have to do is go to the about tab or read the apologetics and its right there infront of you.
Well, I went and although I feel that it should be MORE obvious, at least they do say on the front page that the founder of the site is LDS.

I get the sense you feel they are trying to hide mormonism by calling themselves christians.
That is what this thread is about, basically. Even if that one site didn't try as hard to hide it, there are lots of other sites - as well as physical buildings that do.

I don't believe that to be true. They are christians who have aligned themselves with the LDS church, another christian organization.
The LDS is not just another Christian organization, and neither is the RLDS. They believe things that are not consistent with the Bible. That fact is really not in dispute here. I'm concerned about the cloak.....

blessings in Jesus
tal
 
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clint25n

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We have to admit. The LDS church trains their missionaries to not teach/reveal certain things, as it would hinder their chances of getting converts. They call it "milk before meat."

This is just one example of many secrets, rituals and beliefs that the LDS understand needs to be concealed to successfully grow at a faster pace.

This may be related to same reason churches are being renamed; not sure. But it sounds plausible. I believe this same reason is what helped encourage them to name their church "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

But obviously this is just speculation, and I can only assume.
 
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skylark1

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I visited your link. It seems pretty upfront to me. All you have to do is go to the about tab or read the apologetics and its right there infront of you.

I get the sense you feel they are trying to hide mormonism by calling themselves christians.

I don't believe that to be true. They are christians who have aligned themselves with the LDS church, another christian organization.

No, that isn't what I was saying. I think that you are reading things into what I wrote.

At first glance the link appears to be about studying Christinity, which is a term that includes all Christian denominations. However, what is taught there excludes most or all (depending upon one's view) of Christianity. I would argue most. It excludes all except Mormonism. Thus, the name of the site "study Christinity" is misleading.
 
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4godslove

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We have to admit. The LDS church trains their missionaries to not teach/reveal certain things, as it would hinder their chances of getting converts. They call it "milk before meat."

This is just one example of many secrets, rituals and beliefs that the LDS understand needs to be concealed to successfully grow at a faster pace.

This may be related to same reason churches are being renamed; not sure. But it sounds plausible. I believe this same reason is what helped encourage them to name their church "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."

But obviously this is just speculation, and I can only assume.

would you rather we call it teaching arithmetic before calculus?

what encouraged us to name the church that was God.

in your church, do they reveal to you everythiing God knows?
 
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talitha

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would you rather we call it teaching arithmetic before calculus?
Doesn't matter what you call it......

what encouraged us to name the church that was God.
I think probably that's what the prime-rib-eaters told you.........

in your church, do they reveal to you everythiing God knows?
Well, they don't hide the fact that they're Charismatic......
 
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Albion

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I think the 'bottom line' here is that all branches of Latter Day Saints sincerely consider themselves to be Christians--even if Christians belonging to other churches do not agree with them on that and even if LDS teaching can be considered deceptive in other regards. There is a good reason for not considering Mormons and their branches to be Christian, but that isn't going to make any difference when it comes to their evangelizing. They will represent themselves as Christian, and those who are alarmed that the unwary can be misled by this appeal will just have to be armed with the reasons why this is a questionable claim and be ready to lay it out for their friends.

In other words, there is nothing gained by focusing on whether or not Mormons are intending to deceive anyone when they represent themselves as Christian. What's needed is information from the other side that sets the record straight, not a reliance upon accusing them of being dishonest.
 
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Room4all

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I think the 'bottom line' here is that all branches of Latter Day Saints sincerely consider themselves to be Christians--even if Christians belonging to other churches do not agree with them on that and even if LDS teaching can be considered deceptive in other regards. There is a good reason for not considering Mormons and their branches to be Christian, but that isn't going to make any difference when it comes to their evangelizing. They will represent themselves as Christian, and those who are alarmed that the unwary can be misled by this appeal will just have to be armed with the reasons why this is a questionable claim and be ready to lay it out for their friends.

In other words, there is nothing gained by focusing on whether or not Mormons are intending to deceive anyone when they represent themselves as Christian. What's needed is information from the other side that sets the record straight, not a reliance upon accusing them of being dishonest.


What a pity. It's a good thing we don't hold all christians to the same standards we hold the mormons , rlds, flds, JW and so on. There might not be any of us left to disagree.
 
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4godslove

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Doesn't matter what you call it......


I think probably that's what the prime-rib-eaters told you.........


Well, they don't hide the fact that they're Charismatic......

what's the matter; don't they know everything God knows?

i guess God must be hiding things from you.

God must be dishonest.
 
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A New Dawn

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I've been noticing LDS and RLDS churches popping up with names like "Community Church" and "Restoration Church", giving the impression of being just another denomination or non-denomination. This bothers me, because - well, I feel like people are being deceived.

Today my husband was contacted by a man who wants to "unite the missions" in Honduras. A few minutes of research later I looked under three or four layers of pseudonyms and found out that he believes in the book of Mormon - he's RLDS. We don't want to align with that, as nice as the guy seems.

I feel it's unethical for the LDS to disguise themselves, and I know that there are many people who get involved not knowing that this is what they're involved with, until there are relationships formed.

My mother-in-law was married a few years ago; at the time she and her new husband had barely begun seeking God, and none of their friends were church-goers. Long story short, they found a pastor to counsel them and marry them, and after the wedding I discovered in a conversation with the man that he was RLDS. Imagine my trying to explain to my mom-in-law that while I was really glad she was seeking God, this was not a good thing.....

How to do that....??

blessings
tal

PS - if this is the wrong forum for this topic, mods, feel free to move, I just didn't know where to bring it up..... ~~t

I used to be RLDS. The Community of Christ is the new public name for the RLDS church (it was changed in 2001) for many reasons, but mostly because the RLDS, since it's rejection of most of the peculiar LDS beliefs, has always been plagued by people thinking they are LDS. They are not LDS. The only thing they share with the LDS is 14 years of history and the Book of Mormon and portions of the D&C. The RLDS have been steadily moving away from restoration beliefs for quite a while now, but quite rapidly over the last 10-15 years.

They started moving towards a protestant type of belief system a while back, but unfortunately, they moved right past them towards liberal protestantism, a movement I don't believe to be scriptural at all. At least, when they were restoration, I believe they were Christian, but now, being so far away from what the Bible (as a whole) teaches, that is where the problem lies now, not that they started out as a restoration church.
 
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A New Dawn

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Could be, but they both believe in the book of Mormon - from what I understand, the RLDS is a more fundamentalist sort of Mormon - they think the LDS doesn't follow the Book of Mormon well enough. As a Christian, I don't think that is the problem, obviously.....

Actually, that is wrong. The RLDS were always called "moderate mormons" because they did not go along with the far out practices like polygamy and celestial marriage and baptism for the dead, etc., that the LDS practice(d). But now, except for those who broke off from the RLDS church to create restoration churches, the Community of Christ is very liberal and rejects, for the most part, their restoration heritage.
 
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A New Dawn

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Thanks, that is a help. Things have become soo confusing for people. I have also found LDS/RLDS type material here in Honduras that uses the same words to sort of advertise as the Charismatic/Prophetic churches do here - wanting people to come and hear the teachings of the "prophet Joseph Smith", and since the LDS/RLDS (is there ONE term I can use to cover all the people who believe in Joseph Smith, etc.??? ugh) is fairly new here, many people think that what they'll be hearing is fresh manna from Heaven. I want sooo much to protect the sheep......

My in-laws are still RLDS/CoC. They go to Honduras frequently to help rebuild the schools there through a program called Friends United. I know that there is a RLDS/CoC church in Tegeusagalpa(sp?), but I don't know if it is more widely spread throughout the country. I'm not sure that the church there would widely proclaim anything like what you claim, using language like "hear the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith" is just not RLDS language. They have never exalted Joseph Smith in that manner. I know many people who were converted to the church and didn't even get taught who Joseph Smith was, so that is just not language you'd see from RLDS literature.

The LDS is not just another Christian organization, and neither is the RLDS. They believe things that are not consistent with the Bible. That fact is really not in dispute here. I'm concerned about the cloak.....

blessings in Jesus
tal


If I may, it is exactly for these reasons that the RLDS changed it's name, so it wouldn't be tied to mormonism the way you are trying to do.
 
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A New Dawn

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No, it wasn't outreach international, but I have a problem with that one too, since it doesn't make it clear that they are LDS or RLDS or whatever on their front page. There are a lot of people who could be drawn in by that page, and I'm sure that is the intent. When I was in college I had LDS friends who used to kid around about involuntary baptisms..... Now I realize that's not funny.......

Just out of curiosity, what difference does it make who you receive assistance from? Outreach International just offers relief services in areas where people are starving, or severe living conditions like flooding, or hurricanes, etc.
 
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talitha

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A New Dawn - I have (and most protestants have) an issue with the foundations of the whole Joseph Smith-ian movement and the book of mormon - I cannot see them as consistent with Christianity, and both RLDS/CoC and LDS believe in those things - and also "restoration churhces" - for that reason they are in the same category. This is what Paul speaks of when he talks about "another gospel".

Friends United is the original organization the guy belongs to who contacted my husband. I don't know how he found him.....

Just out of curiosity, what difference does it make who you receive assistance from? Outreach International just offers relief services in areas where people are starving, or severe living conditions like flooding, or hurricanes, etc.

I don't mind them offering relief services as long as they don't say one word about their belief system - especially not under the guise of actual Chrisitanity. Just being honest. But I highly doubt it goes down that way......

If I may ask, why did you leave the RLDS, and do you still believe in the book of mormon?

blessings in Jesus
tal
 
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Albion

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I know many people who were converted to the church and didn't even get taught who Joseph Smith was"

That observation appears to eliminate any doubt about the validity of Talitha's concerns, doesn't it? ("I feel it's unethical for the LDS to disguise themselves, and I know that there are many people who get involved not knowing that this is what they're involved with, until there are relationships formed.") .
 
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A New Dawn

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"I know many people who were converted to the church and didn't even get taught who Joseph Smith was"

That observation certainly seems to validate Talitha's concerns ("I feel it's unethical for the LDS to disguise themselves, and I know that there are many people who get involved not knowing that this is what they're involved with, until there are relationships formed.") .

They are not LDS, so it doesn't validate Talitha's concerns at all.
 
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A New Dawn - I have (and most protestants have) an issue with the foundations of the whole Joseph Smith-ian movement and the book of mormon - I cannot see them as consistent with Christianity, and both RLDS/CoC and LDS believe in those things - and also "restoration churhces" - for that reason they are in the same category. This is what Paul speaks of when he talks about "another gospel".

Friends United is the original organization the guy belongs to who contacted my husband. I don't know how he found him.....

Just out of curiosity, what difference does it make who you receive assistance from? Outreach International just offers relief services in areas where people are starving, or severe living conditions like flooding, or hurricanes, etc.

I don't mind them offering relief services as long as they don't say one word about their belief system - especially not under the guise of actual Chrisitanity. Just being honest. But I highly doubt it goes down that way......

If I may ask, why did you leave the RLDS, and do you still believe in the book of mormon?

blessings in Jesus
tal

Friends United is not a religious organization. It is a group that was started separate from the RLDS church and now works mainly through the Rotary. It's job is to rebuild the schools. Period.

I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with the RLDS (and the LDS) before you start speaking about them. They are not the same, they do not have the same beliefs or practices. The RLDS is Trinitarian while the LDS is polytheistic. You probably still speak illy about the WWCoG, too.

I left the RLDS church because God showed me their errors. Maybe you can ask the other members of this forum if I believe in the BoM anymore. ;)
 
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