Predestination

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DD2008

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by your theory shouldn't all men be drawn to the same theological position

shouldn't we all naturally gravitate towards calvinism when we lose our choice?

When you are given the grace to believe and are saved you will naturally gravitate toward the truth unless you stifle the spirit and listen to your will instead.

So, when people try to make God fit their definition of fair instead of simply accepting him as he is revealed in scripture and trusting tha his will is good, they are stifling the truth and are really making the rules for God. They try to make the scriptures fit what they want ot believe instead of just listening to what the scriptures actually say. They fall into error that way.
 
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&Abel

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When you are given the grace to believe and are saved you will naturally gravitate toward the truth unless you stifle the spirit and listen to your will instead.

So, when people try to make God fit their definition of fair instead of simply accepting him as he is revealed in scripture and trusting tha his will is good, they are stifling the truth and are really making the rules for God. They try to make the scriptures fit what they want ot believe instead of just listening to what the scriptures actually say. They fall into error that way.

I do believe you gravitate towards the truth

BUT we have not arrived at absolute truth(ever in history) and we have never been truly unified

so obviously there is something within us working against the spirit

and obviously if it were up to god we would all work in unity

but we don't

and some of us are wrong and will continue to be wrong

this in itself is evidence of choice and proof that the spirit can only work as hard as you let it

as much as you want it too
 
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DD2008

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but those same sheep are scattered and are not in agreement which proves that while the Spirit is involved in our lives it does not have complete control

we have to work with it

Able,

AFTER you have been regenerated you can make choices and yes you can either do good or evil based on your choice. You can work with the spirit.

You just can't work with they Spirit in regards to your salvation. That is free and you aren't involved. Once you are saved you are free.

Remember, "THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE." You won't be bound to your sick will when you have been regenerated in Christ who is the truth.
 
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&Abel

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do we know when this was written?

Ecclesiastes 12

9In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged (O)many proverbs. 10The Preacher sought to find (P)delightful words and to write (Q)words of truth correctly.
11The (R)words of wise men are like (S)goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven (T)nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
12But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of (U)many books is endless, and excessive (V)devotion to books is wearying to the body.
13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: (W)fear God and (X)keep His commandments, because this applies to (Y)every person.
14For (Z)God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.



this doesn't say anything about him turning back to god
 
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DD2008

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I do believe you gravitate towards the truth

BUT we have not arrived at absolute truth(ever in history) and we have never been truly unified

so obviously there is something within us working against the spirit

and obviously if it were up to god we would all work in unity

but we don't

and some of us are wrong and will continue to be wrong

this in itself is evidence of choice and proof that the spirit can only work as hard as you let it

as much as you want it too

Able,

We're not unified because of sin on our parts. Not because God hasn't given us his inspired word.
 
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&Abel

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Able,

AFTER you have been regenerated you can make choices and yes you can either do good or evil based on your choice. You can work with the spirit.

You just can't work with they Spirit in regards to your salvation. That is free and you aren't involved. Once you are saved you are free.

Remember, "THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE." You won't be bound to your sick will when you have been regenerated in Christ who is the truth.

yes salvation is Christ's because he died for us

but we have to allow him to change us

and we decide how far that change goes

we decide how dedicated to the truth we will actually be

many a believer have been lulled into false security and beliefs

or we wouldn't be here posting about those beliefs

the Catholic Church continues to teach false doctrines and yet the Catholic church is not devoid of genuine believers
 
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&Abel

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Able,

We're not unified because of sin on our parts. Not because God hasn't given us his inspired word.

or his Spirit

and yet we still are willful in how we follow that Spirit and what we believe

because many christians are in direct disagreement including you and I

we are filled with the same regenerating power of christ and yet still contain our own will
 
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PETE_

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does not the fact that we are arguing this and have different opinions while attempting to follow the same god prove that we have choice?

if the same Spirit was taking control in all believers we would all be identical in beliefs

there must be something besides the Spirit involved, because the Spirit seeks unity
You keep asserting that calvinists deny choice even though the error of that statement has been pointed out many times.

We have choices but they are limited by ability, and in regards to salvation we have no ability to chose God, we are dead until He makes u alive. The spiritually dead can't raise themselves. They must be raised by God.

we all once lived in othe passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body1 and the mind, and pwere by nature qchildren of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But2 God, being rrich in mercy, sbecause of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even twhen we were dead in our trespasses, umade us alive together with Christhttp://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51087241#_ftn10
Eph 2:3-5
 
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archierieus

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I am a Presbyterian Christian. My beliefs are rooted in sound docrine and orthodox christian reformed theology.

Whatever one may claim, reliance on impressions and the emotional response of purported 'conviction' as validating one's belief system is qualititatively similar.

Actually the conviction of the spirit rules now.

Precisely as you have mentioned. And that is the very real danger. Which is doubly dangerous because one claims the authority of 'conviciton' for one's mindset.

Truth is abosolute and is self evident. The reason there are disagreements and splits in the Church is sin. God left us his inspired scriptures and in them is says my sheep hear my voice. Many an athiest can read the scriptures and teach an incorrect class on them treating them as a text.

But the sheep hear His voice. His voice is in scripture and he is not the author of confusion. So we do well to listen.

And according to you, the Calvinist way is 'absolute truth.' That is, of course, according to you. A subjective validation.
 
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&Abel

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You keep asserting that calvinists deny choice even though the error of that statement has been pointed out many times.

We have choices but they are limited by ability, and in regards to salvation we have no ability to chose God, we are dead until He makes u alive. The spiritually dead can't raise themselves. They must be raised by God.

we all once lived in othe passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body1 and the mind, and pwere by nature qchildren of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But2 God, being rrich in mercy, sbecause of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even twhen we were dead in our trespasses, umade us alive together with Christ
Eph 2:3-5

so what you are saying is the one choice god has not given us is whether we are saved or not

the only choice that really matters has been taken away from us

god decided who would burn and who would be saved and decided to free our will after that factor was concrete?

you realize how silly this is right?
 
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archierieus

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When you are given the grace to believe and are saved you will naturally gravitate toward the truth unless you stifle the spirit and listen to your will instead.

Not sure if you are aware of this, but a somewhat similar approach is advocated by devotees of the Hindu faith. Do you recognize the danger?

So, when people try to make God fit their definition of fair instead of simply accepting him as he is revealed in scripture

Or when people try to make God fit their definition of what they think He is like or should be like . . . "They try to make the scriptures fit what they want ot believe instead of just listening to what the scriptures actually say. They fall into error that way."
 
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PETE_

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zDid not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? aAmong the many nations there was no king like him, and he was bbeloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin.http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=51087442&posted=1#_ftn4
Ne 13:26

That should clear up the Solomon issue

Used of God’s love for His own: e.g. Solomon, “beloved of his God” (Nehemiah 13:26); Benjamin “beloved of Yahweh” (Deuteronomy 33:12); so even of wayward Israel (Jeremiah 11:15).http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=51087442&posted=1#_ftn1 http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=51087442&posted=1#_ftnref1
 
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squint

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I don't believe god's grace is irrestitable

I think Solomon shows us a prime example of someone refusing god's grace after being blessed by it his whole life

we have no choice but to assume that Solomon did not turn back to god because if he had it would have been included in the scripture

And that would be a fantastically wild assumption.
 
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&Abel

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zDid not Solomon king of Israel sin on account of such women? aAmong the many nations there was no king like him, and he was bbeloved by his God, and God made him king over all Israel. Nevertheless, foreign women made even him to sin.
Ne 13:26

That should clear up the Solomon issue

Used of God’s love for His own: e.g. Solomon, “beloved of his God” (Nehemiah 13:26); Benjamin “beloved of Yahweh” (Deuteronomy 33:12); so even of wayward Israel (Jeremiah 11:15).

WAS is the key word here which you've conveniently left unhighlighted
 
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DD2008

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Whatever one may claim, reliance on impressions and the emotional response of purported 'conviction' as validating one's belief system is qualititatively similar.



Precisely as you have mentioned. And that is the very real danger. Which is doubly dangerous because one claims the authority of 'conviciton' for one's mindset.



And according to you, the Calvinist way is 'absolute truth.' That is, of course, according to you. A subjective validation.

Not sure if you are aware of this, but a somewhat similar approach is advocated by devotees of the Hindu faith. Do you recognize the danger?



Or when people try to make God fit their definition of what they think He is like or should be like . . . "They try to make the scriptures fit what they want ot believe instead of just listening to what the scriptures actually say. They fall into error that way.
[/quote]


Christians have always been mocked in that manner. What we have been talking about is predestination, the fallen nature of man etc. Man is fallen and cannot know God on his own. With the power of God by his grace and by his election, the elect know God. Fallen man sees no logic in it, he sees no reason to choose one religion over the other or to leave behind his Hinduism for Christianity. But that elect Hindu who hears the gospel call and whos spirit is quickened by the Almighty God to believe on Christ and have the righteousness of Christ imputed to him knows in whom he has believed. He knows God not an idea of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Only the elect know God.
 
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PETE_

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so what you are saying is the one choice god has not given us is whether we are saved or not

the only choice that really matters has been taken away from us

god decided who would burn and who would be saved and decided to free our will after that factor was concrete?

you realize how silly this is right?

God did not take away man's choice.

Men just will not chose God, they certainly are free to, they just will not.
 
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