Underground Latter Day Saints

talitha · Mar 5, 2009

I've been noticing LDS and RLDS churches popping up with names like "Community Church" and "Restoration Church", giving the impression of being just another denomination or non-denomination. This bothers me, because - well, I feel like people are being deceived.

Today my husband was contacted by a man who wants to "unite the missions" in Honduras. A few minutes of research later I looked under three or four layers of pseudonyms and found out that he believes in the book of Mormon - he's RLDS. We don't want to align with that, as nice as the guy seems.

I feel it's unethical for the LDS to disguise themselves, and I know that there are many people who get involved not knowing that this is what they're involved with, until there are relationships formed.

My mother-in-law was married a few years ago; at the time she and her new husband had barely begun seeking God, and none of their friends were church-goers. Long story short, they found a pastor to counsel them and marry them, and after the wedding I discovered in a conversation with the man that he was RLDS. Imagine my trying to explain to my mom-in-law that while I was really glad she was seeking God, this was not a good thing.....

How to do that....??

blessings
tal

PS - if this is the wrong forum for this topic, mods, feel free to move, I just didn't know where to bring it up..... ~~t

Albion · Mar 6, 2009

I believe that it's the RLDS doing this, not the LDS. In any case...sure, it's a deliberate attempt to associate the RLDS with conventional Protestant Christianity. There's no subterfuge about this in the RLDS mind; the church wants to see itself as a conventional Christian church and put some distance between itself and the LDS. This may well lead to the deception of people who don't realize who they are speaking to, but OTOH many ordinary Christian churches have changed their names lately in order to appear less extreme, more inviting, etc. It's Public Relations as much as anything.

superwimp · Mar 6, 2009

hello talitha,

Actually the mormons started out as the Church of Christ. I do have a question for you though. Do you believe in the trinity. Assuming you do then do you feel that belief in the trinity is a way of hiding your belief in polytheism.

talitha · Mar 6, 2009

Albion said:
I believe that it's the RLDS doing this, not the LDS.

Could be, but they both believe in the book of Mormon - from what I understand, the RLDS is a more fundamentalist sort of Mormon - they think the LDS doesn't follow the Book of Mormon well enough. As a Christian, I don't think that is the problem, obviously.....

In any case...sure, it's a deliberate attempt to associate the RLDS with conventional Protestant Christianity. There's no subterfuge about this in the RLDS mind; the church wants to see itself as a conventional Christian church and put some distance between itself and the LDS.

How, I wonder, could sticking closer to the Book of Mormon be "conventional", I wonder? If they want to be "conventional", step one, lose the Book of Mormon. If they want to be more Joseph-Smithy, step one, distance self from conventional church, as they don't accept those extra-biblical elements.

This may well lead to the deception of people who don't realize who they are speaking to, but OTOH many ordinary Christian churches have changed their names lately in order to appear less extreme, more inviting, etc. It's Public Relations as much as anything.

Agreed, I'm just saying this is Public Relations that crosses the line to deception - false advertising.

superwimp said:
Actually the mormons started out as the Church of Christ.

I think the Church of Christ would beg to differ..... The Mormons started out as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I do have a question for you though. Do you believe in the trinity. Assuming you do then do you feel that belief in the trinity is a way of hiding your belief in polytheism.

hahahhaha!! no!! now, there would be a comparison if I were to believe in poly-theism but call my church "Trinitarian" or something like that, to make people think I was "conventional".

Albion · Mar 6, 2009

talitha said:
Could be, but they both believe in the book of Mormon - from what I understand, the RLDS is a more fundamentalist sort of Mormon - they think the LDS doesn't follow the Book of Mormon well enough. As a Christian, I don't think that is the problem, obviously.....

I don't think that's correct, Talitha. The RLDS is more moderate than the LDS and does genuinely want to be accepted as a more or less routine Protestant church. Now...to be sure...I agree with you that this is not reasonable and that the differences are significant and also that approaching unwary Christians as though the RLDS (now the Community of Christ) is, in fact, like any ol' Protestant body is wrong. I'm on your side with that, but the RLDS is, actually more moderate than the LDS, which is why they think that they are more like mainstream Christianity, whether or not we'd agree.

How, I wonder, could sticking closer to the Book of Mormon be "conventional", I wonder?

I'm not sure what is meant by that, but I can guess. The LDS certainly stands by the BOM, so it would be hard to be sticking closer to it. What I think this "closer" idea may mean is that the RLDS do not also accept all those other writings that the LDS consider inspired--the Pearl of Great Price, Doctrines and Covenants, etc. It's from these works that are less well known to the average observer that some of the goofier Mormon beliefs come from (celestial marriage and baptism for the dead, for example)--not from the Book of Mormon.

If they want to be "conventional", step one, lose the Book of Mormon. If they want to be more Joseph-Smithy, step one, distance self from conventional church, as they don't accept those extra-biblical elements.

I agree. I'm just commenting on those other matters here.

I think the Church of Christ would beg to differ..... The Mormons started out as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

No, superwimp was right about that. The first name used was Church of Christ, although that name didn't stay in use very long. There is, however, a small splinter church of Latter Day Saints that retains the name (Church of Christ).

talitha · Mar 6, 2009

ugh, how confusing - thanks for helping to clear things up, though, Albion.

Blackmarch · Mar 6, 2009

talitha said:
I've been noticing LDS and RLDS churches popping up with names like "Community Church" and "Restoration Church", giving the impression of being just another denomination or non-denomination. This bothers me, because - well, I feel like people are being deceived.

Today my husband was contacted by a man who wants to "unite the missions" in Honduras. A few minutes of research later I looked under three or four layers of pseudonyms and found out that he believes in the book of Mormon - he's RLDS. We don't want to align with that, as nice as the guy seems.

I feel it's unethical for the LDS to disguise themselves, and I know that there are many people who get involved not knowing that this is what they're involved with, until there are relationships formed.

My mother-in-law was married a few years ago; at the time she and her new husband had barely begun seeking God, and none of their friends were church-goers. Long story short, they found a pastor to counsel them and marry them, and after the wedding I discovered in a conversation with the man that he was RLDS. Imagine my trying to explain to my mom-in-law that while I was really glad she was seeking God, this was not a good thing.....

How to do that....??

blessings
tal

PS - if this is the wrong forum for this topic, mods, feel free to move, I just didn't know where to bring it up..... ~~t

Do you know if he was actively RLDS or that was just the last church he was with... and did your mom know before they were married about that?

For LDS individuals, it's often stressed to choose someone of the same religion to marry.. so at least with the more active members that is usually a subject that is brought up before marriage.

I do not know about RLDS/COmmunity of Christ churches or any other branches of LDS, But I have yet to see any Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to have titles such as restoration or community church and etc... on their buildings.

I believe the RLDS officially changed their name to Community of Christ some time ago, and I do not believe that was a move to decieve.

talitha · Mar 6, 2009

Blackmarch said:
Do you know if he was actively RLDS or that was just the last church he was with...

No, he's definitely actively RLDS according to his ministry website - but I didn't find that out for sure until I looked in the newsletter archive of his organisation's website. I think his organisation is called "Family Outreach" or something like that, and it talks about "Restoration ministries" and then in one of the newsletters there is a story about how he was sharing with a girl here in Honduras that he believes in the book of Mormon, but he's not a Mormon. I did not find any clues in the vision of the ministry, only in the newsletter, and then the links page which had a link to on online version of the Book of Mormon.

and did your mom know before they were married about that?

My mother-in-law is very naive, it's endearing, but it's hard to explain to her that some things that sound nice are deceptive......

For LDS individuals, it's often stressed to choose someone of the same religion to marry.. so at least with the more active members that is usually a subject that is brought up before marriage.

Neither Mom nor Cliff are LDS or RLDS. They didn't even know that this "Community Church" was associated wtih the Book of Mormon. They had only visited a few times. Fortunately Cliff is less naive than Mom, and they have moved on.....

I do not know about RLDS/COmmunity of Christ churches or any other branches of LDS, But I have yet to see any Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to have titles such as restoration or community church and etc... on their buildings.

Well that is encouraging - I guess it's not everywhere....

I believe the RLDS officially changed their name to Community of Christ some time ago, and I do not believe that was a move to decieve.

Maybe not on purpose, I'll grant that.

Albion · Mar 6, 2009

Yes, I'm afraid this is just something people have to be careful about. IOW, it's less a matter of purposeful deceipt than being confused by what some people genuinely think is the right way to describe themselves.

While we are of the opinion that the theologcy of the Saints is anything but Christian, we have to keep in mind that they think Christ spoke to Joseph Smith and did "restore" his church through him after centuries of darkness, etc. etc. So what they are saying to others--while it may mislead those listeners--is what they actually think that religion amounts to. And the same goes for that word "Mormon." Although all branches of the movement have the Book of Mormon, it is only the "Utah Church" AKA the LDS which is properly called "Mormon." Confusing, I know, but this is even agreed to by outside religious experts.

skylark1 · Mar 6, 2009

talitha said:
Could be, but they both believe in the book of Mormon - from what I understand, the RLDS is a more fundamentalist sort of Mormon - they think the LDS doesn't follow the Book of Mormon well enough. As a Christian, I don't think that is the problem, obviously.....

Maybe you were thinking of the FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)?

Agreed, I'm just saying this is Public Relations that crosses the line to deception - false advertising.

I agree that a church that includes the Book of Mormon as one of their standard works should be upfront about it. Also any group that teaches that there was a great apostasy, that all Christinity fell away, and that a restoration (not a reformatino) was neccessary, should not be trying to pass itself off as just another denomination.

I think the Church of Christ would beg to differ..... The Mormons started out as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Since 1830, there have been over 100 splinter groups that have broken away from the Church of Jesus Christ Latter-day Saints. Many of them have names from which you cannot tell that they are a Mormon group. Many include the words "Church of Christ." I also recall reading the the CoJCLDS was first called the Church of Christ.

You can read of list of names of splinter groups here:

http://www.4mormon.org/mormon-splinter-groups.php

http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/denominations.htm

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/mormondivide.html

skylark1 · Mar 6, 2009

Albion said:
And the same goes for that word "Mormon." Although all branches of the movement have the Book of Mormon, it is only the "Utah Church" AKA the LDS which is properly called "Mormon." Confusing, I know, but this is even agreed to by outside religious experts.

Don't Mormon Fundamentalists consider themselves to be Mormon?

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/

talitha · Mar 6, 2009

Thanks, that is a help. Things have become soo confusing for people. I have also found LDS/RLDS type material here in Honduras that uses the same words to sort of advertise as the Charismatic/Prophetic churches do here - wanting people to come and hear the teachings of the "prophet Joseph Smith", and since the LDS/RLDS (is there ONE term I can use to cover all the people who believe in Joseph Smith, etc.??? ugh) is fairly new here, many people think that what they'll be hearing is fresh manna from Heaven. I want sooo much to protect the sheep......

Albion · Mar 6, 2009

skylark1 said:
Don't Mormon Fundamentalists consider themselves to be Mormon?

I'd say that we are wading into complicated waters now. Few sources that track the denominations, report on membership, etc. even deal with some of the tiniest of the splinters, no matter which family of faith we are talking about. Some of these may call themselves by that term; I just don't know.

However, we began with an OP that mentioned LDS and RLDS, and then we got into the fact that there are many very small splinters. But no one on the outside knows very much about any of them. So no, I can't answer the question for certain, but I don't think it matters in any case. The term "Mormon" is customarily applied to the LDS, and the RLDS does not use the term for itself, nor do catalogs or directories, etc. of comparative churches.

(is there ONE term I can use to cover all the people who believe in Joseph Smith, etc.???

Talitha, "Latter Day Saints" is one way of doing it. Or "Saints," although this would confuse things even moreso.

But I mentioned that the LDS are called "Mormon" and the RLDS are not, mainly as a point of information. It's almost a technicality.

Knowing the right terminology might come in handy if you are into a discussion with them or if someone is challenging your familiarity with the subject. But people often use the term for all these churches, so you're not going to be doing something shockingly incorrect if you do so too...and this would probably be the easiest way to describe what you want to get across to those people you want to warn who are not into the fine points we are discussing now.

talitha · Mar 6, 2009

Add to Reputation: Albion

What do you think of Albion's post?Your comments on this post:
thanks for your help, bro!

skylark1 · Mar 6, 2009

Albion said:
I'd say that we are wading into complicated waters now. Few sources that track the denominations, report on membership, etc. even deal with some of the tiniest of the splinters, no matter which family of faith we are talking about. Some of these may call themselves by that term; I just don't know.

However, we began with an OP that mentioned LDS and RLDS, and then we got into the fact that there are many very small splinters. But no one on the outside knows very much about any of them. So no, I can't answer the question for certain, but I don't think it matters in any case. The term "Mormon" is customarily applied to the LDS, and the RLDS does not use the term for itself, nor do catalogs or directories, etc. of comparative churches.

I'm sorry for complicating matters. Since I live in Utah, I am more likely to encounter FLDS (who refer to themselves as Mormons) than RLDS. Probably in Honduras that would not be the case!

Talitha, I came across the site studyChristianity.com recently, which reminds me of what you wrote about in your OP. The site appears to be teaching Christianity in general, when really it is teaching about Mormonism. It just isn't very upfront about.

Albion · Mar 7, 2009

skylark1 said:
I'm sorry for complicating matters. Since I live in Utah, I am more likely to encounter FLDS (who refer to themselves as Mormons) than RLDS. Probably in Honduras that would not be the case!

What I'm about to say won't do Talitha any good, but I'm interested to learn that the FLDS do call themselves "Mormons." And while we are at it, do the various Josephite groups do that too?

We agree that other groupings of Latter-Day Saints do not, so I'm wondering if this has to do with their perspecticve on where they came from. By that I mean, the RLDS and some others never wanted to be confused with the LDS because they considered Brigham Young to be a usurper, or something like that. The RLDS of course has always maintained--with some success--that it is the original. But the FLDS may think that they are the traditionalists carrying on what the Utah church formerly did before it went astray, etc.

That would make them -- I'm thinking -- likely to call themselves by the term "Mormon" rather thabn surrender it to the LDS.

Of course I'm just thinking aloud, but does any of this sound correct from what you know?

Blackmarch · Mar 8, 2009

Albion said:
What I'm about to say won't do Talitha any good, but I'm interested to learn that the FLDS do call themselves "Mormons." And while we are at it, do the various Josephite groups do that too?

We agree that other groupings of Latter-Day Saints do not, so I'm wondering if this has to do with their perspecticve on where they came from. By that I mean, the RLDS and some others never wanted to be confused with the LDS because they considered Brigham Young to be a usurper, or something like that. The RLDS of course has always maintained--with some success--that it is the original. But the FLDS may think that they are the traditionalists carrying on what the Utah church formerly did before it went astray, etc.

That would make them -- I'm thinking -- likely to call themselves by the term "Mormon" rather thabn surrender it to the LDS.

Of course I'm just thinking aloud, but does any of this sound correct from what you know?

Mormon is probably about the most general term you can use.... unfortunately when some other group of mormon splinter groups do something weird or extreme or what not, it's usually the CoJCoLDS group that catches the rep for it.

bexcellent · Mar 9, 2009

talitha said:
I've been noticing LDS and RLDS churches popping up with names like "Community Church" and "Restoration Church", giving the impression of being just another denomination or non-denomination. This bothers me, because - well, I feel like people are being deceived.

Today my husband was contacted by a man who wants to "unite the missions" in Honduras. A few minutes of research later I looked under three or four layers of pseudonyms and found out that he believes in the book of Mormon - he's RLDS. We don't want to align with that, as nice as the guy seems.

I feel it's unethical for the LDS to disguise themselves, and I know that there are many people who get involved not knowing that this is what they're involved with, until there are relationships formed.

My mother-in-law was married a few years ago; at the time she and her new husband had barely begun seeking God, and none of their friends were church-goers. Long story short, they found a pastor to counsel them and marry them, and after the wedding I discovered in a conversation with the man that he was RLDS. Imagine my trying to explain to my mom-in-law that while I was really glad she was seeking God, this was not a good thing.....

How to do that....??

blessings
tal

PS - if this is the wrong forum for this topic, mods, feel free to move, I just didn't know where to bring it up..... ~~t

When I saw this thread, I thought it was going to be about this sort of thing:

http://graceforgrace.com/2008/06/06/baptist-preacher-believes-in-book-of-mormon/

skylark1 · Mar 9, 2009

Albion said:
What I'm about to say won't do Talitha any good, but I'm interested to learn that the FLDS do call themselves "Mormons." And while we are at it, do the various Josephite groups do that too?

We agree that other groupings of Latter-Day Saints do not, so I'm wondering if this has to do with their perspecticve on where they came from. By that I mean, the RLDS and some others never wanted to be confused with the LDS because they considered Brigham Young to be a usurper, or something like that. The RLDS of course has always maintained--with some success--that it is the original. But the FLDS may think that they are the traditionalists carrying on what the Utah church formerly did before it went astray, etc.

That would make them -- I'm thinking -- likely to call themselves by the term "Mormon" rather thabn surrender it to the LDS.

Of course I'm just thinking aloud, but does any of this sound correct from what you know?

I think that it is possible that RLDS member wished to disassociate themselves with some of the doctrines and practices of the LDS Church, and also that the FLDS Church clings to these very doctrines and practices (although the LDS Church no longer practices some of these doctrines). Your speculation about why the first group would reject the name Mormon, and the second group embrace the name sounds plausible to me.

Room4all · Mar 10, 2009

I believe you are referring to outreach international which can be found here:

http://www.outreach-international.org/site/PageServer?pagename=homepage

I only post it so that you can see that they do Idenify themselves with the Community Of Christ which were, in the days I belonged, called RLDS or the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

As to the history, if you really wanted to know you could easily search the matter and discover it on the internet.

While each are distinct in their Commitment to God as christians, they share a rich history and, while there are many things that separate the the 2 denominations, they both serve and are committed to the same God as you and I.

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