Why is the God of the OT and the God of the NT so different?

Nadiine · Feb 26, 2009

Chesterton said:
I've heard angry small children speak similarly of one of their parents after the child has been disciplined.

In my mind it raises the question why a people would invent such a character, when they could have just invented a Father figure who didn't care enough about right and wrong to disipline, or to get upset. If it were up to me to invent monotheism, I'd probably have written something pretty like the 23rd Psalm and stayed in that vein. Likewise, if I'd invented Jesus, I wouldn't have him saying "I've come to divide" and "love me more than you love your family".

Folks like Dawkins presumably might be more willing to accept a "nice guy" for a God. They're really wishing for a God who's just a decent little chap like themselves, and at the same time calling us wishful thinkers.

I agree, these are good observations.

I think when you get down to it, the world wants a god who doesn't
make any demands from them, doesn't judge and won't condemn
them for doing evil.

The usual, "let me do whatever I want, make me happy, then give me eternal bliss in return".
If God doesn't meet those requirements for people, they'll retaliate.

squint · Feb 26, 2009

Hey, let's face some facts about the God of the O.T.

That God murdered people. Oh, excuse me, killed people righteously, even babies. My oh my.

Oh, and the God of the O.T. wiped out the population of the entire planet except for 8 people. Of course that was justifiable homicide as well.
Oh, and God is NOT The Author of confusion, BUT God confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel. I guess that doesn't count?

Oh, and the God of the O.T. used and sent LYING SPIRITS upon the prophets. Of course God is not involved in LYING now is HE? Sure.

Oh, and God caused adultery. Yeah, read all about it in 2 Sam. 12:11. I guess we could call that justifiable ADULTERY? Or is that retributive ADULTERY?

And certainly let's NOT mention that God created and uses EVIL. (Isaiah 45:7) No, that MUST be a mistranslation.

I have heard little in the way of good explanations of ANY of these types of things OTHER THAN warnings that God can and does do these things to people. I consider that to explanation to be nothing less than fear mongering for lack of better explanations, and YES, there are FAR BETTER explanations.

I have not listened to the Dawkins clip, but suspect that he may be taking a somewhat truthful look at these matters, and what he finds WILL confound both he and believers for the most part, and that too is by Gods Exact Intentions.

enjoy!

squint

Nadiine · Feb 26, 2009

Daughter of His said:
Why would anyone want to listen to Dawkins? Those are his little ideas of who God is and Dawkins obviously doesn't understand what he claims to know so much about.

I contend that we should all read the Bible for ourselves,, allow God to teach us through His word then form your own opinions of what you think the character of God is like.

Yes, and I'd add that without the Holy Spirit leading a person into
God's truth, they won't grasp much of anything spiritual.
This is why Christians see God and the world so differently.

Nadiine · Feb 26, 2009

squint said:
Hey, let's face some facts about the God of the O.T.

That God murdered people. Oh, excuse me, killed people righteously, even babies. My oh my.

Oh, and the God of the O.T. wiped out the population of the entire planet except for 8 people. Of course that was justifiable homicide as well.
Oh, and God is NOT The Author of confusion, BUT God confused the languages of the people at the tower of Babel. I guess that doesn't count?

Oh, and the God of the O.T. used and sent LYING SPIRITS upon the prophets. Of course God is not involved in LYING now is HE? Sure.

Oh, and God caused adultery. Yeah, read all about it in 2 Sam. 12:11. I guess we could call that justifiable ADULTERY? Or is that retributive ADULTERY?

And certainly let's NOT mention that God created and uses EVIL. (Isaiah 45:7) No, that MUST be a mistranslation.

I have heard little in the way of good explanations of ANY of these types of things OTHER THAN warnings that God can and does do these things to people. I consider that to explanation to be nothing less than fear mongering for lack of better explanations, and YES, there are FAR BETTER explanations.

I have not listened to the Dawkins clip, but suspect that he may be taking a somewhat truthful look at these matters, and what he finds WILL confound both he and believers for the most part, and that too is by Gods Exact Intentions.

enjoy!

squint

Looks like somebody needs to study the bible.

Evil isn't CREATED, contrary to people's popular parroting of such.

Also, ALL souls (life) are HIS to give and take.
If I create a vase and smash it, it's mine to smash and I'm not violating
anything by it.
If God creates life and takes it back in judgment, it's HIS to take, He owns
all life.
So it's not "murder" for God to take life, He is the rightful owner
since He gave the life. It's HIS property.
(not to mention, all of us rightfully deserve death for sin - it's ONLY
His mercy that allows anyone to live).

It's not YOUR property to take.
There's the difference people like you don't grasp.

squint · Feb 26, 2009

Nadiine said:
Looks like somebody needs to study the bible.

Evil isn't CREATED, contrary to people's popular parroting of such.

Ah, let's hear the excuses for Isaiah 45:7's non-validity. Care to provide a modern re-write?

Rev. 4:11 says God created 'all things.' Did EVIL just pop up entirely of its own accord?

The scripture describes EVIL as A POWER:

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil

And we KNOW that God created ALL POWERS:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

Now tell me again PLEASE how it is you extract the POWER OF EVIL from being 'created?'

And tell me also why I might accept your explanation that EVIL is the absence of GOOD (as if I haven't heard this one before) RATHER THAN the scriptures that state EVIL is A POWER and that ALL POWERS are created by God and for God?

Also, ALL souls (life) are HIS to give and take.
If I create a vase and smash it, it's mine to smash and I'm not violating
anything by it.

Of course! Justifiable HOMICIDE and justifiable ADULTERY is OK for God to do. Is this your final answer?

If God creates life and takes it back in judgment, it's HIS to take, He owns
all life. So it's not "murder" for God to take life, He is the rightful owner
since He gave the life. It's HIS property.

And you might even see where some people could see that as kind of a DOUBLE STANDARD? God commands US to do and act in certain ways, but if HE does the SAME THINGS it's OK only because of WHO He Is, and that no other form of explanation is needed. Sorry, that's JUST the way it is..? Double standards are FINE?

(not to mention, all of us rightfully deserve death for sin - it's ONLY
His mercy that allows anyone to live).

So you have been able to quantifiably withhold His Eternal Mercy to certain people?

Or that causing adultery or confusion or murdering is MERCIFUL? Is this really what your version of God is all about?

It's not YOUR property to take.
There's the difference people like you don't grasp.

You are welcome to justify adultery any way you want. Or lying or causing confusion or murdering people.

But you will also excuse me if I see more logical explanations?

And please be advised this is my favorite topic.

enjoy!

squint

Chesterton · Feb 26, 2009

squint said:
But you will also excuse me if I see more logical explanations?

I'm all ears. :bigeye:

(With thanks to Sunlover.)

Cribstyl · Feb 26, 2009

WorshipBassist said:
This is something I'm having a lot of a problems with explaining.

I'm reading through the Book of Ephesians, and also reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

One of the major points Dawkins makes is that there is a major difference between the Gods of the OT and NT. Now I also read Ephesians and Phillipians at the same time and I cannot simply explain away why a God who (in the OT) demands that so many laws are kept for purity and a God in the NT who opens His arms to everyone, Jew and Gentile.

Sorry for the stupid questions, but why was there a 'chosen people' in the OT and in the NT this change of heart?

Not a stupid question, but it's an inaccurate question because God is the same, yesterday today and forever.

God has chosen to manifest Himself as the Saviour to accomplish His plan of redemption.

CRIB

Nadiine · Feb 26, 2009

squint said:
Ah, let's hear the excuses for Isaiah 45:7's non-validity. Care to provide a modern re-write?

Rev. 4:11 says God created 'all things.' Did EVIL just pop up entirely of its own accord?

The scripture describes EVIL as A POWER:

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil

And we KNOW that God created ALL POWERS:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

Now tell me again PLEASE how it is you extract the POWER OF EVIL from being 'created?'

First off, the WORD is not translated accurately in the KJV
there. If you do your homework in translations, the KJV is one of the very FEW that uses "evil".

The word is translated "clamity" or "disaster".

If you cared to read context in the verse, you'de see
how innacurate "evil" is.
The verse uses CONTRASTS Light and dark, peace and>..
"evil"?
Evil is not the opposite of peace, disaster/upheaval or
calamity are the opposite of peace.
So you see, evil isn't even accurate in the verse.

Aside from that, evil is not created, it is the ABSENCE
of goodness. To not do good.

Of course! Justifiable HOMICIDE and justifiable ADULTERY is OK for God to do. Is this your final answer?

Do you OWN anyone? Does any human being OWN another
by being their creator? No.

God owns all souls, they are all HIS to take back to Himself
and to judge righteously. He is CREATOR and He is judge.
Does any human being possess these things to own and
judge the soul? No.

Ezekiel 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the
soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die.

ALL life is God's - He not only gave it, but He has right and
authority to take it away.

if you have a problem with that, then you might need to
rethink your religion or something.

Meshavrischika · Feb 26, 2009

but even God does not take ultimate control of souls... which is really awesome considering He can... He allows free will

Nadiine · Feb 26, 2009

HalcyonFire said:
but even God does not take ultimate control of souls... which is really awesome considering He can... He allows free will

I can't agree more - I've always wondered if I was God, what I'd do
if I created people.

Honestly, I might not like that they had free choice or free will...
whichever people want to argue for. We do have some choice
to follow or reject God.

I think if I were God, I probly would punish sin right then & there
& keep people from getting out of control.
:holy:

But . . it sure wouldn't be a "better" system than He's designed.
How can you build a better mousetrap?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 26, 2009

Cribstyl said:
Not a stupid question, but it's an inaccurate question because God is the same, yesterday today and forever.

God has chosen to manifest Himself as the Saviour to accomplish His plan of redemption.

CRIB

Hebrew 1:10 and Thou according to beginnings Lord! the land found and works of the hands of Thee are the heavens 11 they shall be perishing.
Thou yet are remaining and all as a garment shall be being aged 12 and as-if a clothing Thou shall be rolling-up/elixeiV <1667> (5692) them as a cloak, and they shall be being changed/allaghsontai <236> (5691). Thou yet the same are and the years of Thee not shall be lacking/failing". [Psalm 102:25-27/Reve 6:14]

Reve 6:14 And the heaven recoils/ap-ecwrisqh <673> (5681) as scrollet being rolled-up/eilissomenon <1507> (5746) and every mountain and island out of the places of them were moved.

Meshavrischika · Feb 26, 2009

Eh. I have kids. I think I get where He's coming from. No error... no lesson.

squint · Feb 26, 2009

Nadiine said:
First off, the WORD is not translated accurately in the KJV
there. If you do your homework in translations, the KJV is one of the very FEW that uses "evil".

The word is translated "clamity" or "disaster".

If you cared to read context in the verse, you'de see
how innacurate "evil" is.
The verse uses CONTRASTS Light and dark, peace and>..
"evil"?
Evil is not the opposite of peace, disaster/upheaval or
calamity are the opposite of peace.
So you see, evil isn't even accurate in the verse.
Aside from that, evil is not created, it is the ABSENCE
of goodness. To not do good.

The verse says EVIL. I predicted you'd try to reterm it in the last post. (yawn)

I also predicted you'd try to term EVIL as the absence of good. (double yawn)

I also provided the scriptural depiction of what (in part) EVIL IS, and that is A POWER...and I provided a scripture that says God created ALL POWERS...which categorically includes EVIL.

But of course that would not make any difference to you. You cannot accept the fact that God created and uses EVIL, even if the evidence is clear that God does.

I also cited 2 Sam. 12:11 where God caused adultery. YOU said God can justifiably MURDER. So I asked YOU if God can also cause justifiable ADULTERY? Got an answer?

Do you OWN anyone? Does any human being OWN another
by being their creator? No.

Uh, Yes. All things are Gods Property. All things were made by Him for His Pleasure. Rev. 4:11

God owns all souls, they are all HIS to take back to Himself
and to judge righteously. He is CREATOR and He is judge.
Does any human being possess these things to own and
judge the soul? No.

You might want to remedy your redletter conflict above, remembering that God in Christ was human and that through Him were made all things.

ALL life is God's - He not only gave it, but He has right and
authority to take it away.

Indeed. And to make mankind have adultery as well eh?

if you have a problem with that, then you might need to
rethink your religion or something.

I'd suggest the idol is in your court and I have applied a little cutting to same.

And HEY, please remind me if LYING is OK for God to be invoved with as well? You forgot that one. OH, and causing confusion as well, even though He is supposedly NOT The Author of confusion.

I don't recall God asking me to overlook the obvious by faith or having to make excuses for Him or His OPENLY STATED involvement with EVIL, ADULTERY, MURDER, LYING AND CONFUSION.

enjoy!

squint

squint · Feb 26, 2009

HalcyonFire said:
but even God does not take ultimate control of souls... which is really awesome considering He can... He allows free will

The wills of men are not free of God or of the devil.

You as a believer supposedly claim that God LIVES in you. So are you 'excluding' His Life from your will? Nice try, but is there some point to that as a believer?

And the devil certainly has access to the minds and hearts of mankind beyond any scriptural doubt.

There is no 'free' from either of these workings that are NOT of mankinds wills other than in freewill fairytale land where God is completely exonerated of any involvement with His creations wills and only mankind are blamed and God there4 is completely justified to burn them all alive forever in fire IF HE WANTS TO...(yawn)

sunlover1 · Feb 26, 2009

Nadiine said:
I agree, these are good observations.

I think when you get down to it, the world wants a god who doesn't
make any demands from them, doesn't judge and won't condemn
them for doing evil.

The usual, "let me do whatever I want, make me happy, then give me eternal bliss in return".
If God doesn't meet those requirements for people, they'll retaliate.

IOW, a god who isnt God, because they've bought
into "The lie" that says, "I can be my own god"

Meshavrischika · Feb 27, 2009

most people act like their own God... it's not unusual, even in Christendom

Nadiine · Feb 27, 2009

sunlover1 said:
IOW, a god who isnt God, because they've bought
into "The lie" that says, "I can be my own god"

yes, a god who isn't the true God.
They prefer darkness, reject the light and refuse to repent.

Zstar · Feb 28, 2009

Chesterton said:
I'm all ears.
(With thanks to Sunlover.)

I'd like also to hear what squint has to say in reguards to the God of the Old Testament portrayed in Scripture - just curious about what logic he has found in his studies of the topic.

rnmomof7 · Feb 28, 2009

HalcyonFire said:
flaw to your logic = without law there is no sin

How did Adam sin?

ArcticFox · Feb 28, 2009

[deleted] by me. I decided against posting in the thread again.

Why is the God of the OT and the God of the NT so different?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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