Why is the God of the OT and the God of the NT so different?

SummaScriptura · Jan 15, 2009

Did you ever meditate upon Jesus, son of Mary, trampling out the grapes of wrath?

WorshipBassist · Feb 24, 2009

Sphinx777 said:
Here is one article that may interest you...

Link

Thanks, that was a great article.

calluna said:
The people chosen in the OT were intended to show two things, that may appear contradictory. One was to show to others that God's way, as expressed through external law, was better than man's. The Israelites were to be an 'advertisement' for their deity.

The other purpose of God for the Israelites was to show that externally applied law is impossible to keep, and in the end only condemns for that reason (as Paul noted). The Israelites showed both lessons, at different times, the second increasingly so, so that when Jesus came to Israel, there was a great contrast between the public memories of Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon, and the reality, with most of the twelve tribes vanished, and the remainder mostly in a parlous spiritual condition.

Jesus came not to provide more external motivation through law, but the internal motivation that can come only through his own sacrifice, by which sins are utterly forgiven, and mankind can be heirs of God himself. This was always his intent 'from before the creation of the world'. The most important statement in the whole Bible, in a very real sense, is this one:

"I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven because she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little." Lk 7:47

So love, love of God and therefore one's neighbor, is the result of knowing forgiveness of all one's sins, which releases the conscience and gives the forgiven sinner gratitude that the Israelites could only look forward to in trust.

If this interpretation seems novel and strange, it is because the last 2000 years have seen Satan often put God's message into reverse, returning 'Christendom' to externally applied law (such as the 10 commandments) that was so much a failure with the first chosen race.

This is pretty much what my studies have shown...

BereanTodd said:
I see no difference at all. Read the Psalms, read Isaish, read the ending of pretty much all of the minor prophets, read so many other sections - God is long-suffering, God keeps His Word, God is merciful, loving, worthy of praise.

You want wrath in the NT, read about the second coming, in Matthew, read his condemnation of the jewish religious leaders, read Revelation.

God is the same yesterday, today and tommorow ... don't let an idiot like Dawkins who has no understanding of Christianity, God or the Bible shake your faith.

I'm not letting these 'doubts' do anything but explore God's word.

E.C. · Feb 24, 2009

WorshipBassist said:
This is something I'm having a lot of a problems with explaining.

I'm reading through the Book of Ephesians, and also reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

One of the major points Dawkins makes is that there is a major difference between the Gods of the OT and NT. Now I also read Ephesians and Phillipians at the same time and I cannot simply explain away why a God who (in the OT) demands that so many laws are kept for purity and a God in the NT who opens His arms to everyone, Jew and Gentile.

Sorry for the stupid questions, but why was there a 'chosen people' in the OT and in the NT this change of heart?

One poster said in TAW with regards to this...

"I spank my kids when they are children. I don't spank my kids when they are adults. Did I change or did my children change?"

WorshipBassist · Feb 24, 2009

E.C. said:
One poster said in TAW with regards to this...

"I spank my kids when they are children. I don't spank my kids when they are adults. Did I change or did my children change?"

that's true!

ArcticFox · Feb 25, 2009

WorshipBassist said:
This is something I'm having a lot of a problems with explaining.

I'm reading through the Book of Ephesians, and also reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

One of the major points Dawkins makes is that there is a major difference between the Gods of the OT and NT. Now I also read Ephesians and Phillipians at the same time and I cannot simply explain away why a God who (in the OT) demands that so many laws are kept for purity and a God in the NT who opens His arms to everyone, Jew and Gentile.

Sorry for the stupid questions, but why was there a 'chosen people' in the OT and in the NT this change of heart?

I read the same book by the request of my neighbor. He is very strongly agnostic.

Let me say just for the record that Richard Dawkins is a complete joke when it comes to this subject. His book was a lame rehashing of age-old arguments that have been sufficiently answered long ago. His complete lack of knowledge about the Bible is the only reason he even thinks that his book has any water.

I do not criticize people just for writing against the Bible. I criticize them for being completely ignorant of a subject they are pretending to know much about. Mr. Dawkins' arguments were horribly pathetic, and he is extremely lame to think that his book is anything significant. I've read better from teenagers on message boards.

Secondly, asking a question like "Why is the god of the OT different from that of the NT?" already makes a proposition... that there are at least two gods. You have already asked a question I cannot answer because I believe the question is flawed.

Let's try this: "Why is God so different in the OT than in the NT?" I don't believe that's true.

What's different is his approach to people. What do OT and NT stand for? Think about it. They are "testaments," or like a modern word, "covenant" or "contract." They are agreements about how the relationship between God and man will operate.

Since the OT was a different contract, so to speak, the relationship was different. Therefore, God's actions were different in some ways.

It's really easy. Something extremely simple that any third-rate bible-basher should know. The fact that Dawkins didn't know this very simple and well-known fact makes him a complete dunce on the subject.

Nadiine · Feb 25, 2009

ArcticFox said:
I read the same book by the request of my neighbor. He is very strongly agnostic.

Let me say just for the record that Richard Dawkins is a complete joke when it comes to this subject. His book was a lame rehashing of age-old arguments that have been sufficiently answered long ago. His complete lack of knowledge about the Bible is the only reason he even thinks that his book has any water.

I do not criticize people just for writing against the Bible. I criticize them for being completely ignorant of a subject they are pretending to know much about. Mr. Dawkins' arguments were horribly pathetic, and he is extremely lame to think that his book is anything significant. I've read better from teenagers on message boards.

Secondly, asking a question like "Why is the god of the OT different from that of the NT?" already makes a proposition... that there are at least two gods. You have already asked a question I cannot answer because I believe the question is flawed.

Let's try this: "Why is God so different in the OT than in the NT?" I don't believe that's true.

What's different is his approach to people. What do OT and NT stand for? Think about it. They are "testaments," or like a modern word, "covenant" or "contract." They are agreements about how the relationship between God and man will operate.

Since the OT was a different contract, so to speak, the relationship was different. Therefore, God's actions were different in some ways.

It's really easy. Something extremely simple that any third-rate bible-basher should know. The fact that Dawkins didn't know this very simple and well-known fact makes him a complete dunce on the subject.

YEP

Nadiine · Feb 25, 2009

SummaScriptura said:
The God of the OT and the God of the NT are so different because of the glasses you're wearing.[c]

[/c]

qft

ArcticFox · Feb 25, 2009

JustOne said:
Because they are. The G.d of the Tanakh says in Isaiah that He alone is G.d and that there is no other beside Him. He alone is the Savior. Then you have the Hellenistic view if one takes the NT as literal. Paul's NT teaches people to worship a man. G.d declares that He is not man. But then this deception was clearly written to play out and why in Duet 27-19. One actually is G.d.. ie the Creator of Life ie the One that can exist without our acknowledgment. The other is a man in whom the doctrine surrounding requires blind faith and blind devotion in order to be rewarded.

Hey JustOne...

This is a "Christians-only" part of the CF forums. I'm not a moderator and have no power to do anything, but you should know that it is that way precisely so that Christians can converse together on theology. This is not an appropriate place to debate the existence or persons of God, since in order to post here, you must subscribe to the Trinitarian view of God presented in the Nicene Creed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

If you don't believe in that, which it appears you do not, there are better places for you to discuss that with others

Emmy · Feb 25, 2009

Dear WorshipBassist. God is God, the Almighty and Great I AM. The O.T. is a History of the Israelites and their Prophets, and God is seen and interpreted by different men and women, all God-loving. The Israelites were surrounded by Heathen tribes, and their cruel gods, and God was establishing His Kingdom. In time Jesus came, He showed us God how God really is, a loving Heavenly Father, who wants us back again, and Jesus is the Way. God has shown us that He wants our love, pure and freely given, to our Creator/God first, and our brothers and sisters.too. I say this humbly and with love, WorshipBassist. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

JustOne · Feb 25, 2009

ArcticFox said:
Hey JustOne...

This is a "Christians-only" part of the CF forums. I'm not a moderator and have no power to do anything, but you should know that it is that way precisely so that Christians can converse together on theology. This is not an appropriate place to debate the existence or persons of God, since in order to post here, you must subscribe to the Trinitarian view of God presented in the Nicene Creed.
If you don't believe in that, which it appears you do not, there are better places for you to discuss that with others

I do not. I did not realize that christianity discussions had become exclusive. By the way, I was not debating the existence of G.d since I know He exists and also, I answered the question as she had asked it. Kind of bites to see a good question and want to be a part of the discussion to give and to learn yet be excluded. Actually, quite odd really.

ArcticFox · Feb 25, 2009

JustOne said:
I do not. I did not realize that christianity discussions had become exclusive. By the way, I was not debating the existence of G.d since I know He exists and also, I answered the question as she had asked it. Kind of bites to see a good question and want to be a part of the discussion to give and to learn yet be excluded. Actually, quite odd really.

There's nothing odd about it in my opinion. The mere fact that you have to sign up to this forum alone restricts people from posting freely. In Japan, it's common to offer free posting to anyone without even requiring a name.

There is a very good reason why this is a Christian-only forum. That allows Christians to discuss amongst themselves what they think and believe about a variety of theological topics, without the focus becoming a debate about whether the Bible is valid or whether God exists or whether or not Jesus was God, for example.

If this forum were freely open to all, the conversations would be radically different and it wouldn't achieve it's purpose. It's no different than a forum for women or a forum for videographers. There's no points in joining the discussion if you aren't "one of them," so to speak. Think of this forum as a sort of "As a Christian I believe this... what do you other Christians think?" It's Christian beliefs debated with and by Christians.

This forum also has a variety of boards for people regardless of their beliefs. Please enjoy posting to one of them instead

squint · Feb 25, 2009

WorshipBassist said:
This is something I'm having a lot of a problems with explaining.

I'm reading through the Book of Ephesians, and also reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

One of the major points Dawkins makes is that there is a major difference between the Gods of the OT and NT.

Mr. Dawkins would be very wrong.

Now I also read Ephesians and Phillipians at the same time and I cannot simply explain away why a God who (in the OT) demands that so many laws are kept for purity and a God in the NT who opens His arms to everyone, Jew and Gentile.

The command of the O.T. was to be Perfect. The command of the N.T. is no different.

And yes, that goal of that command is to make one throw up their hands to our Lord.

Sorry for the stupid questions, but why was there a 'chosen people' in the OT and in the NT this change of heart?

Ya gotta start somewhere. I asked God why Israel for decades. It's not easily understood topic matter, but there are serious answers available for serious students. Not a topic that can be handled in this format.

enjoy!

squint

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 25, 2009

Originally Posted by WorshipBassist This is something I'm having a lot of a problems with explaining.

I'm reading through the Book of Ephesians, and also reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

Didn't he also read 2 Thess 2:11

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 Thess 2:11 and because of this, is sending them, the God, an in-working of-deception/error/planhV <4106>, into the to believe them to the Falsehood

Textus Rec.) 2 Thessalonians 2:11 kai dia touto pemyei autoiV o qeoV energeian planhV eiV to pisteusai autouV tw yeudei

4106. plane feminine of 4108 (as abstractly); objectively, fraudulence; subjectively, a straying from orthodoxy or piety:--deceit, to deceive, delusion, error.

Meshavrischika · Feb 25, 2009

WorshipBassist said:
This is something I'm having a lot of a problems with explaining.

I'm reading through the Book of Ephesians, and also reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

One of the major points Dawkins makes is that there is a major difference between the Gods of the OT and NT. Now I also read Ephesians and Phillipians at the same time and I cannot simply explain away why a God who (in the OT) demands that so many laws are kept for purity and a God in the NT who opens His arms to everyone, Jew and Gentile.

Sorry for the stupid questions, but why was there a 'chosen people' in the OT and in the NT this change of heart?

they're not different... He was establishing himself... much in the same way he did with the tree.

Chesterton · Feb 25, 2009

WorshipBassist said:
One of the major points Dawkins makes is that there is a major difference between the Gods of the OT and NT.

And Dawkins is a...oh yeah, a biologist, writing and lecturing on the Bible. Apparently there is a major difference between the biologists of the past and today. In the past they practiced biology.

Nadiine · Feb 25, 2009

As I view what nonChristians might see, I think what they're missing is that God just changed a method of operation, but He's the same
God.
Much like you can have a military force who starts a campaign in one
phase, but shifts methods thruout as they continue over time and
things change.

You have law and grace covenants.
Once grace replaced the original system, judgment would come later.
It will still come, but it's postponed for judgment day instead.

Also, with Christ coming, He brought another method of working with
man which is His Spirit working to convict us all of sin and indwelling in a born again believer which they didn't have during Law.
You could say a veil had been lifted in a way in God enlightening
everyone to fundamental truths to some degree.

I think one part of why people view it as 2 Gods is also that people
alter Jesus' message as if He was only a politically correct peacenik guru
of some kind without any words of warning or exclusivism.

Yes, He was love, but He also demands obedience to His law/commands.
He warned that the majority would choose destruction and that He was
the ONLY way to salvation.

Alot of people reject or ignore His harsher, exclusivistic teachings as
if they don't exist. He also warned of eternity in hell in people live
in sin w/out repentance.

So It's people's false perceptions that make Him appear to be a
different God when He's not at all.

Meshavrischika · Feb 25, 2009

to change methods of operation would imply that one did not plan effectively....

SummaScriptura · Feb 25, 2009

Nadiine said:
As I view what nonChristians might see, I think what they're missing is that God just changed a method of operation, but He's the same
God.
Much like you can have a military force who starts a campaign in one
phase, but shifts methods thruout as they continue over time and
things change.

You have law and grace covenants.
Once grace replaced the original system, judgment would come later.
It will still come, but it's postponed for judgment day instead.

Also, with Christ coming, He brought another method of working with
man which is His Spirit working to convict us all of sin and indwelling in a born again believer which they didn't have during Law.
You could say a veil had been lifted in a way in God enlightening
everyone to fundamental truths to some degree.

I think one part of why people view it as 2 Gods is also that people
alter Jesus' message as if He was only a politically correct peacenik guru
of some kind without any words of warning or exclusivism.

Yes, He was love, but He also demands obedience to His law/commands.
He warned that the majority would choose destruction and that He was
the ONLY way to salvation.

Alot of people reject or ignore His harsher, exclusivistic teachings as
if they don't exist. He also warned of eternity in hell in people live
in sin w/out repentance.

So It's people's false perceptions that make Him appear to be a
different God when He's not at all.

When someone posts an idea as outrageous as "the God of the New Testament is different than the God of the Old Testament", I tend to think they're pretending their ignorance. Most kids in Sunday school can answer this one. And I don't have the patience for the apologetics "needed" to refute it.

Nadiine · Feb 25, 2009

SummaScriptura said:
When someone posts an idea as outrageous as "the God of the New Testament is different than the God of the Old Testament", I tend to think they're pretending their ignorance. Most kids in Sunday school can answer this one. And I don't have the patience for the apologetics "needed" to refute it.

Well we can't know everyone's understanding, everyone's knowledge
or what they've been taught (if anything). . .

Very possibly that's the case with many of them.

But I do think we should be able to give a legitimate reply to it for
those who may legitimately be seeking an answer or aren't aware.

& the sad fact is that most kids today AREN'T TAKEN TO SUNDAY
SCHOOL by the vast majority - we do live in an anti-church
period unfortunately, so less and less people are knowing the
basics of the bible.

Sign of the times :sigh:

Nadiine · Feb 25, 2009

HalcyonFire said:
to change methods of operation would imply that one did not plan effectively....

this is so untrue.
Have you even looked into Military planning before? There are
phases of war that they go thru. You don't perform the same
methods from start to finish, it shifts as you go along & they
plan ahead for that.

Similarly, the OT prophecies what will come in the NT ahead
of time. It was the plan from the start that Jesus would come to die.
(planned before He even created anything).

I'd say that was preplanned & designed rather than an afterthought as if
it were some "plan B" backup for a botched job.

Why is the God of the OT and the God of the NT so different?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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