Alcohol, even one drink with meals can cause cancer

reddogs said:

Many people thought just having a little alcohol couldnt hurt, well here is a new study that gives links to cancer even from small amounts.

"....Study Of 1.3 Million Women Finds More Evidence Linking Cancer, Moderate Alcohol Consumption
...A study of nearly 1.3 million British women offers yet more evidence that moderate alcohol consumption increases the risk of a handful of cancers.
British researchers surveyed middle-aged women at breast cancer screening clinics about their drinking habits, and tracked their health for seven years.
Each extra drink per day increased the risk of breast, rectal and liver cancer, University of Oxford researchers reported Tuesday in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. The type of alcohol — wine, beer or liquor — didn’t matter.
That supports earlier research, but the new wrinkle: Alcohol consumption was linked to esophageal and oral cancers only when smokers drank...."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/25/health/main4826785.shtml

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/02/study-one-drink.html

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I can show just as many articles that say the opposite.

You can print out twenty articles about the pros and cons of drinking wine yet you can't print out one Bible verse that calls drinking wine in itself a sin.

k4c said:

I can show just as many articles that say the opposite.

You can print out twenty articles about the pros and cons of drinking wine yet you can't print out one Bible verse that calls drinking wine in itself a sin.

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That's true. God calls those deceived by drinking "unwise."

Pro 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

But, as it is said, "A man convinced against is will is of the same opinion still."

"...for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. ..."

John the baptist was a Nazirite (for life). A Nazirite could not drink any form of strong drink and needed to avoid many other things.

Matthew 11 said:

And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.


For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

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RND said:

That's true. God calls those deceived by drinking "unwise."

Pro 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

But, as it is said, "A man convinced against is will is of the same opinion still."

"...for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. ..."

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We're talking Proverbs, aye? Chapter 3:

9Honor the LORD with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
10then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.

Here's my reply Ricker: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."



The foregoing investigation has shown that in secular Greek and Hebrew, the respective words for wine, oinos and yayin, have been used to refer either to fermented or unfermented wine. At this juncture it is important to ascertain if the same dual meanings are found in the Biblical usage of these two related words. This information is essential because it will explain why Scripture sometimes clearly approves of wine and sometimes strongly disapproves of it, while using the same word to designate both.
The apparent ambiguity of Scripture toward wine is resolved if we can establish that the two related words for wine—oinos and yayin—are used in Scripture in the same way as in secular Greek and Hebrew, namely to refer to the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented. If these dual meaning is present in Scripture, then it will be easier to show that God approves of the unfermented grape juice and that He disapproves of the fermented intoxicating wine, even while using the same word to designate both. The procedure we shall follow is to examine first the usage of yayin in the Old Testament and then of oinos in the New Testament.


Frequent Use. The noun yayin is the most frequently used word for wine in the Old Testament, fully 141 times. As already noticed, there is an apparent inconsistency in the use of this word, since sometimes it receives God’s approval and sometimes His disapproval. The reason for this will become apparent by looking at some examples where yayin obviously means fermented, intoxicating wine and at others where it means unfermented grape juice.


According to Robert Teachout’s tabulation of the 141 references to yayin in the Old Testament, 71 times the word refers to unfermented grape juice and 70 times to fermented wine.36 This tabulation may not necessarily be accurate, since in certain instances the context is unclear. The actual ratio in the two usages of yayin is of relative significance, because for the purpose of our study it is important simply to establish that yayin is sometimes used in the Old Testament to refer to the unfermented juice of the grape.


Examples of Intoxication. No one doubts that yayin frequently refers in the Old Testament to intoxicating wine. This fact is clearly established both by the many examples of the evil consequences of drinking yayin and by the divine condemnation of its use.


The very first example of the use of yayin in Scripture describes the intoxicating effects of fermented wine: "Noah was the first tiller of the soil. He planted a vineyard; and he drank of the wine [yayin] and became drunk, and lay uncovered in his tent" (Gen 9:20, 21).


Another sordid example in which intoxicating wine played a leading role is that of Lot’s daughters. Fearing to be left without progeny after the destruction of Sodom and the surrounding cities, the older daughter said to the younger: "Come, let us make our father drink wine [yayin], and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring through our father.’ So they made their father drink wine [yayin] that night; and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she arose" (Gen 19:32-33). The story continues relating how the following night the younger daughter repeated the same strategy.


The story of Nabal provides another example of the evil effects of intoxicating wine. Nabal was a wealthy man who had benefited from David’s protection. Yet he refused to give any food in return to David’s men. When David organized his men to kill the ungrateful Nabal, his wife, Abigail, acted hastily on a tip received and brought provisions to David, apologizing for her husband’s foolish behavior. After David accepted her apologies and provisions, she returned home, only to find her husband drunk: "And Abigail came to Nabal; and, lo, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal’s heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk; so she told him nothing at all until the morning light. And in the morning, when the wine [yayin] had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him and he became as a stone" (1 Sam 25:36-37).


Among the many other stories of intoxicating wine, we could refer to Ammon, who was murdered by the servants of his brother Absalom while he was "merry with wine [yayin]" (2 Sam 13:28). Also King Ahasuerus who, when his heart "was merry with wine [yayin]" (Esther 1:10), tried to subject Vashiti, his queen, to the gaze of the inebriated nobility of the royal court.


The examples cited suffice to show that yayin in the Old Testament often refers to fermented, intoxicating wine. Further indications are provided by the explicit divine disapproval of the use of wine.


Disapproval of Yayin. The classic condemnation of the use of intoxicating wine and a description of its consequences is found in Proverbs 23:29-35. After warning against some woes caused by wine, such as sorrow, strife, complaining, wounds without cause and redness of eyes, Solomon admonishes to refrain even from looking upon wine: "Do not look at wine [yayin] when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. At the last it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder" (Prov 23:31-32).
A similar warning against intoxicating wine is found in Proverbs 20:1: "Wine [yayin] is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise." Such warnings, however, were largely ignored. By the time of Isaiah, drinking fermented wine had become such a universal problem that even "the priest and the prophet reel with strong drink; they are confused with wine [yayin], they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment" (Is 28:7).


Other passages which clearly indicate that yayin refers to fermented, intoxicating wine, will be mentioned in the following chapter, where we shall examine more closely some of the reasons that Scripture admonishes not to use fermented wine.

No Self-explanatory Passage. The use of yayin in the Old Testament to denote unfermented grape juice is not always as evident as its use to describe alcoholic wine, because the former does not come under condemnation like the latter. There is no single passage which clearly defines yayin as unfermented grape juice. If such a passage existed, there would be no controversy over this subject and no need to write this book.

The Bible, however, is not a lexicon which defines its words. The meaning of its words must often be derived from their context and from their comparative usage in other passages and/or related (cognate) languages. In the case of the word yayin, we believe that there are passages where the context clearly indicates that the word designates unfermented grape juice.

Isaiah 16:10. One of the clearest passages is Isaiah 16:10. The context of the passage is God’s judgment upon Moab for its pride. The judgment is manifested, as often is the case throughout the Old Testament, through the removal of the divine blessing from the vineyard and the grape juice: "And joy and gladness are taken away from the fruitful field; and in the vineyard no songs are sung, no shouts are raised; no treader treads out wine [yayin] in the presses; the vintage shout is hushed" (Is 16:10).

The important point which this passage clarifies is that what the treaders tread out in the pressing vat is called yayin. This is obviously unfermented grape juice, since fermentation is a time-controlled process. Some people wrongly assume that if one just lets grape juice alone, it will automatically ferment into a "good" grade of wine. Such an assumption is wrong. Pressed grape juice (must) allowed to ferment without a controlled environment becomes spoiled grape juice (vinegar) which no one wishes to drink.
Kenneth L. Gentry objects to this interpretation by arguing that "the poetic imagery so common in Hebrew poetry will allow yayin here to be alcoholic."37 His argument is that in poetry sometimes the end results are attributed to the substance which causes the result. Gentry’s objection has two major weaknesses. First, it fails to recognize that the poetic imagery of Isaiah 16:10 deals with the joy of the harvest and the treading of the grapes. The yayin flowing out of the press is seen not in terms of what it could become, fermented wine, but in terms of what it is at harvest time, "wine in the presses."
Second, Gentry ignores the fact that the pressed grape juice, prior to fermentation, was called by the Jews, as shown earlier, "yayin mi-gat—wine from the press." Being unwilling to accept the fact that pressed grape juice could be called yayin, Gentry and a host of moderationists are forced to interpret as alcoholic wine the very yayin flowing from the press. Normal interpretation of Isaiah 16:10 does not require interpreting yayin as a poetic reference to the finished product, fermented wine, since the plain reference to fresh grape juice makes good, understandable sense in the context. A parallel passage is found in Jeremiah 48:33.

Jeremiah 40:10, 12. Another clear example of the use of yayin to designate the unfermented juice of the grape is found in Jeremiah 40:10, 12. In verse 10, Gedaliah, the Babylonian governor, tells the Jews who had not been taken captive: "Gather wine [yayin] and summer fruits and oil, and store them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that you have taken." This order encouraged those Jews who had fled to neighboring countries to return to the land of Judah "and they gathered wine [yayin] and summer fruits in great abundance" (Jer 40:12). In both of these verses we find the term yayin used in a matter-of-fact construction to refer to the fruit of the vine. Alcoholic wine is not gathered from the fields. Such usages negate the assumption that yayin can refer only to fermented wine.

Nehemiah 13:15. In Nehemiah 13:15 we find another example where yayin is used to designate freshly pressed grape juice. "In those days I saw in Judah men treading wine presses on the sabbath, and bringing in heaps of grain and loading them on asses; and also wine [yayin], grapes, figs and all kind of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the sabbath day; and I warned them on the day when they sold food." Here yayin is most probably the pressed grape juice, since it is mentioned together with the treading of wine presses on the Sabbath. The fresh juice was sold on the Sabbath along with fresh grapes and other fruits.

Lamentations 2:12. In Lamentations there is a vivid description of the physical anguish suffered by Judah during the great famine caused by Nebuchadnezzar’s siege of Jerusalem. In famished distress the little children cried out to their mothers: "‘Where is bread and wine[yayin]?’ as they faint like wounded men in the streets of the city, as their life is poured out on their mothers’ bosom" (Lam 2:12).

In this passage the nursing infants are crying out to their mothers for their normal fare of food and drink, namely, bread and yayin. It is hardly imaginable that in time of siege and famine, little children would be asking their mothers for intoxicating wine as their normal drink. "What they wanted as they were dying on their mothers’ breast," notes Robert Teachout, "was grape juice (yayin) which has a tremendous nourishment and which had been part of their normal diet."38

Genesis 49:11. In Genesis 49:11 the blessings of God upon Judah are prophesised through the imagery of an abundant harvest of yayin: "He washes his garments in wine [yayin] and his vesture in the blood of grapes." The idea expressed by this imagery is that the harvest is so copious that the garments of the grape treaders appear washed in the abundance of juice.

In this passage we also have a striking example of Hebrew parallelism where two clauses express the same thought with different words. In this instance, the "garments" of the first clause correspond to the "vesture" of the second clause, and the "wine" (yayin) to the "blood of the grapes." "Blood" is a poetical name for "grape juice," and its usage in parallelism with "wine" suggests that in Bible times grape juice was called yayin, prior to its fermentation.

Song of Solomon. Other examples of the use of yayin referring to unfermented grape juice are found in the love poem written by Solomon, King of Israel. In several verses the enjoyment of pure love is compared with yayin: "O that you would kiss me with the kisses of your mouth! For your love is better than wine [yayin], . . . We will exult and rejoice in you; we will extol your love more than wine [yayin]; . . . How sweet is your love, my sister, my bride! how much better is your love than wine[yayin]" (Song of Solomon 1:2, 4; 4:10).

In these verses yayin can hardly refer to fermented, intoxicating wine, since the author of this book condemns fermented wine as a "mocker" and a stinging "adder" (Prov 20:1, 23:32). It is evident that Solomon is comparing the sweetness of pure, undefiled love with sweet grape juice. Such a comparison is most appropriate, because, as Teachout observes, "just as grape juice was given explicitly by God for the purpose of rejoicing the heart of man (Psalm 104:15), so too is the love between a man and a woman."39

The foregoing examples clearly indicate that, contrary to prevailing opinion, yayin was used in the Old Testament, as in rabbinical literature, to designate either fermented or unfermented grape juice.

RND said:

Here's my reply Ricker: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

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"Bursting vats" sounds like fermented grape juice (wine) to me. (It expands while fermenting, like the new wine bursting the old wineskins story in the Gospels).

Edit to add: Here is the definition of vat from Wictionary:

Noun

Singular
vat
Plural
vats


vat (plural vats)

1. A large tub, such as is used for making wine or for tanning

ricker said:

"Bursting vats" sounds like fermented grape juice (wine) to me. (It expands while fermenting, like the new wine bursting the old wineskins story in the Gospels).

Edit to add: Here is the definition of vat from Wictionary:

Noun

Singular
vat
Plural
vats


vat (plural vats)

1. A large tub, such as is used for making wine or for tanning

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"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Pro 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

"New Wine" as in grape juice.

presses = yeqeb - from an unused root meaning to excavate; a trough (as dug out); specifically, a wine-vat (whether the lower one, into which the juice drains; or the upper, in which the grapes are crushed):--fats, presses, press-fat, wine(-press).

wine = tiyrowsh = or tiyrosh {tee-roshe'}; from 'yarash' (3423) in the sense of expulsion; must or fresh grape-juice (as just squeezed out); by implication (rarely) fermented wine:--(new, sweet) wine.

Ricker, it's amazing how many "yeah, buts" a concordance gets rid of.

RND said:

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Pro 3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

"New Wine" as in grape juice.

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I guess I was searching in the ESV, which I have been using lately, and it didn't say anything about "new".

ricker said:

I guess I was searching in the ESV, which I have been using lately, and it didn't say anything about "new".

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I think that is why using a concordance becomes so vital. These are all 38 of the verses that use tiyrowsh which as we see means "freshly squeezed grape juice."

Gen 27:28, Gen 27:37, Num 18:12, Deu 7:13, Deu 11:14, Deu 12:17, Deu 14:23, Deu 18:4, Deu 28:51, Deu 33:28, Jud 9:13, 2 Ki 18:32, 2 Chr 31:5, 2 Chr 32:28, Neh 5:11, Neh 10:37, Neh 10:39, Neh 13:5, Neh 13:12, Psa 4:7, Prov 3:10, Isa 24:7, Isa 36:17, Isa 62:8, Isa 65:8, Jer 31:12, Hos 2:8, Hos 2:9, Hos 2:22, Hos 4:11, Hos 7:14, Hos 9:2, Joel 1:10, Joel 2:19, Joel 2:24, Micah 6:15, Hag 1:11, Zech 9:17

RND said:

I think that is why using a concordance becomes so vital. These are all 38 of the verses that use tiyrowsh which as we see means "freshly squeezed grape juice."

Gen 27:28, Gen 27:37, Num 18:12, Deu 7:13, Deu 11:14, Deu 12:17, Deu 14:23, Deu 18:4, Deu 28:51, Deu 33:28, Jud 9:13, 2 Ki 18:32, 2 Chr 31:5, 2 Chr 32:28, Neh 5:11, Neh 10:37, Neh 10:39, Neh 13:5, Neh 13:12, Psa 4:7, Prov 3:10, Isa 24:7, Isa 36:17, Isa 62:8, Isa 65:8, Jer 31:12, Hos 2:8, Hos 2:9, Hos 2:22, Hos 4:11, Hos 7:14, Hos 9:2, Joel 1:10, Joel 2:19, Joel 2:24, Micah 6:15, Hag 1:11, Zech 9:17

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Thanks. What magic can you work with Deut. 14:26?

26and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

ricker said:

Thanks. What magic can you work with Deut. 14:26?

26and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

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Different time, different place. In other words does this verse apply to Christian living today? If going to church to offer our tithe is too long a journey for us should we stop off at the liquor store and by Korn Nuts and whiskey with our tithe?

Deuteronomy 14:26 is referring to the tithe offering given to the Lord.

Deu 14:22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Deu 14:23 And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

Deu 14:24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; [or] if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deu 14:25 Then shalt thou turn [it] into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:

Deu 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

[=RND;50779220]Different time, different place. In other words does this verse apply to Christian living today?

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I agree. And this is true with so much more than only this subject.
God bless! Ricker

ricker said:

I agree. And this is true with so much more than only this subject.

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So let me ask this Ricker. Do you think as Christians we should take our tithe money and buy whiskey with it?

RND said:

So let me ask this Ricker. Do you think as Christians we should take our tithe money and buy whiskey with it?

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No. When I said I agreed, I meant it. I don't think the tithing system was ever carried over to the Christian church to begin with. I also think even if it were, buying booze with it would be totally inappropriate in this day and age.

Did you think that was the point I was trying to make by posting the verse? I guess I should be more clear. The verse shows God dod not prohibit alcohol consuption completely. God would never tell us to go ahead and sin, no matter what the circumstances we found ourselves in.

Remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness? Circumstances didn't allow him to make bread and eat it, even when He had fasted for 40 days. The COI would never have been encouraged to consume alcoholic beverages if it were a sin, even if it had meant the difference between life and death.

ricker said:

No. When I said I agreed, I meant it. I don't think the tithing system was ever carried over to the Christian church to begin with. I also think even if it were, buying booze with it would be totally inappropriate in this day and age.

Did you think that was the point I was trying to make by posting the verse? I guess I should be more clear. The verse shows God dod not prohibit alcohol consuption completely. God would never tell us to go ahead and sin, no matter what the circumstances we found ourselves in.

Remember when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness? Circumstances didn't allow him to make bread and eat it, even when He had fasted for 40 days. The COI would never have been encouraged to consume alcoholic beverages if it were a sin, even if it had meant the difference between life and death.

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Ricker, just as at times early on in earths history God allowed the consumption of alcohol so to have times changed now. When the people were ignorant God winks at that ignorance. But now we have been shown a better way.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

What was once acceptable, that which God winked at, is not necessarily acceptable today...God now requires repentance. That was the whole point of my asking the question I asked.

But, as I say...."A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

RND said:

Ricker, just as at times early on in earths history God allowed the consumption of alcohol so to have times changed now. When the people were ignorant God winks at that ignorance. But now we have been shown a better way.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

What was once acceptable, that which God winked at, is not necessarily acceptable today...God now requires repentance. That was the whole point of my asking the question I asked.

But, as I say...."A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

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Please read the verse again. God didn't "wink at it", He commanded it.
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

RND said:

That's true. God calls those deceived by drinking "unwise."

Pro 20:1 Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

But, as it is said, "A man convinced against is will is of the same opinion still."

"...for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. ..."

Click to expand...

Wine, in itself, is not a mocker and strong drink, in itself, is not a brawler. Drinking to intoxication is what causes mocking and brawling. This verse is not saying drinking wine, in itself, is a sin. What it is saying is drinking to intoxication is a sin because it can bring about mocking and brawling.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.

If you use this verse to say drinking wine is a sin then you must also believe that sex, in itself, is a sin because the Bible says sexual temptation is a sin.

To make someone do something against their conscience is a sin, whether it's drinking wine or eating meat. But that still does not say drinking wine is itself is sin.

Those who believe drinking wine is a sin are called the weaker brothers and sisters that's why it's a sin to them and wrong for us to drink in front of them.

ricker said:

Please read the verse again. God didn't "wink at it", He commanded it.

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No doubt. But alas Ricker you're up to your usual "obfuscation" tricks again. Requires/commands = same thing. Instead of picking apart the little things that have nothing to do with the conversation what's say we stay on course.