Who are the two Witnesses?

armothe · Dec 13, 2002

Originally posted by Prophecy Countdown
In plain English.
John? What? Are you Elijah?,,, NO I AM NOT!
Jesus says John THE BAPTIST IS ELIJAH!
Maranatha.
Prophecy Countdown. 

Here is an easy answer. John didn't know he was "Elijah". John didn't know he was the fulfillment to the OT prophecies (Isaiah & Malachi) 

Luke 1:17: With the spirit and power of Elijah he will go before him

Fact is, Christ knew that the OT prophecies were fulfilled in John the Baptist.

Matthew 17:11: but I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased.

Are you going to say that Christ was wrong?

-A

JesusServant · Dec 13, 2002

You all have very good points, but could someone explain what I asked?  At the transfiguration, Elijah and Moses appeared talking to Jesus, why?  I don't think it's just to fill space, I think there's a reason for this.  Is there any other explaination for it?  Please let me know any other theories on this... thanks

jenlu · Dec 13, 2002

JesusServant...that's a great question...

initially, I would think...

He took Peter, James and John...and He told them not to tell anyone for the time being...it allowed them to have yet another testimony after Jesus' ascension...

As to what, Jesus discussed with Moses and Elijah and what significance it holds...I don't know...I would like to hear some theories too...

66books · Dec 13, 2002

timing of events
blessed is he who gets to the 1335.the length of tribulation ?.
the two witnesses appear in this time span.the deciples thought christs
return was the end of the world and like all generations after them we
think it will be in our lifetime.
remember no two prophets have ever been killed in jerusalem at the same
time.john the baptist was killed then christ but not at the same time in the
same place.damascus still stands and you know what will happen to damascus.so 2000 years later we are still waiting for the tribulation to commence and like previous generations i hope it will be in our lifetime.
b.i.c
66books

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 14, 2002

Originally posted by Prophecy Countdown [/i

I think that Moses was resurrected to life to suffer death at the hands of the beast at trumpet number 6.
Two deaths two resurrections

Well,,, thats my thoughts on the matter, but I might be wrong.

Your brother in Christ
.
Prophecy Countdown.

Eph writes...

There is no scriptural evidence that Moses was "resurrected" to return in REV days.....His body was buried so as not to become an IDOL worship type icon.....Notice how fast they worshipped the bronze snake that was lifted up in the wilderness...? They would have done the same with Moses's body..!

Moses was in sprit form on the Mt of Transfiguration..MATT 17:2:3...not bodily form..! Now one of the 2 witnesses could be Moses...I'm just saying no scriptual evidence says Moses was bodily resurrected or that he will be one of the 2..in REV days....!

See how fast Peter wanted to build an alter to worship Moses..MATT 17:4..God had to set him straight real fast in verse 5...HEAR ye HIM...God commands...not Moses or Elijah..!

ENOCH would be another canidate for 1 of the witnesses...HE never died...but he was taken by God...! So for me it's a toss up...Moses... Elijah....and Enoch...in any combo..!

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 14, 2002

Originally posted by DeputyDan

The Bible also says man is appointed once to die and then the judgement.

Eph writes...

Tell that one to Lazarus..when you see him in Heaven...LOL

danrobinson_92562 · Dec 14, 2002

Ladies and Gents,

Does it really matter if the 2 withnesses are Moses and Elijah, Enoch and Elijah, Moses and Enoch, or whoever? There are many argumensts for all 3 but I am not planning to be here to see them.

God Bless
Dan

Prophecy Countdown · Dec 15, 2002

Prophecy Countdown · Dec 15, 2002

Prophecy Countdown · Dec 15, 2002

Prophecy Countdown · Dec 16, 2002

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 17, 2002

PC writes...
I think that Moses was resurrected to life to suffer death at the hands of the beast at trumpet number 6.
Two deaths two resurrections

EPH replies...

Hey all I'm not knocking what you posted...I'm just saying that Biblcally...the Bible doesn't say that...I see what you mean..but your making connections on your own..They may be right..but they aren't the Biblical account..! There is a difference...!

Eph writes...

"See how fast Peter wanted to build an alter to worship Moses..MATT 17:4..God had to set him straight real fast in verse 5...HEAR ye HIM...God commands...not Moses or Elijah..!"

PC says
I agree about the alter Peter wanted to build a Tabernacle . Matt 17:4. "Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

I do not however believe the part about God setting them straight and frightening them!

You say. This quote "HEAR ye HIM......God commands...not Moses or Elijah..!"

"Not Moses and Elijah?"

That has been added by you Ephrame and is a construct and is not the intent of the BIBLE.
The Bibles says they were already scared. They were scared of everything in Mark 9.5.

Besides Peter did not know what he was saying.

Mark 9.5."Teacher, this is wonderful!" Peter exclaimed. "We will make three shrinesone for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

Mark 9:6. He didnt really know what to say, for they were all terribly afraid.

They were afraid the moment they saw the transfiguration!

Matthew 17:5. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

God was not scolding them he was saying "listen to Him." His son.

Jesus said to them , "be not afraid."

Matthew 17:6. "And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid."

Eph replies....

Again I beg to differ...

God was commanding them ( and us )...to not worship Moses or Elijah..He commanded Peter to "hear ye him"..In that context it means ....Listen to my son and what HE says..Moses and Elijah are only men like yourself...But MY son is God incarnate...!

What I posted was... " GOD had to set him straight " ...what God said to Peter...was a command....I didn't say GOD scolded him NOR did I ever say he frightened him.....YOU did...!

You might have confused my post with someone elses...!

Eph wrote..
"ENOCH would be another canidate for 1 of the witnesses...HE never died...but he was taken by God...! So for me it's a toss up...Moses... Elijah....and Enoch...in any combo..!"

"PC" says...
Enoch? Sorry not in the script!

"He never died. but was taken by God.!" That does not make him a contender for the job.

That again is a construct!

Eph chuckles...

Not in the script..? LOL a construct..??? What are you on about...?

WHO says it doesn't make him a contender..? You..? LOL

The BIBLE ( which IS part of the script )...Says that ENOCH was taken by God...see GEN 5:21:24..God took him...Enoch didn't die...So HE because of his NON death becomes a candidate..along with Elijah who was ALSO taken by God in a whirlwind...!

MOSES died..and was buried in the earth..SEE DEUT 33:5:8...This also is part of the "script"..wouldn't you agree...?

Care should be taken in your ZEAL for the Lord..not to turn into a "know it all"...for him...!

" PC " asks...

However Ephrame Why do you think Jesus disputed about the body of Moses? To stop Satan using it for the purposes you state?

Eph replies...

I see your making quotes then claiming " I " said them...Well he's my answer to you..

At no time did I ever say Jesus contended for the body of Moses...That would be incorrect scripturally...Let's go look at just what scripture DOES say...Then I'll address that...
JUDE 9....""Michael""... contended with the devil for the body of Moses...

I NEVER said Michael was Jesus..thats first off..!!
Michael is called an "" archangel "" in this verse by Jude....Jesus is NOT an archangel...Jesus is GOD...So your statement is false..Thus you owe me and apology..OR your confusing ME with someone else...

Also that makes the rest of what you posted mute point...I in NO WAY agree with what you said..So I'll skip to the NEXT portion of your post...

"P C"...says...
Ephrame

Quote;
Moses was in sprit form on the Mt of Transfiguration..MATT 17:2:3...not bodily form..! Now one of the 2 witnesses could be Moses...I'm just saying no scriptual evidence says Moses was bodily resurrected or that he will be one of the 2..in REV days....!

Where does it say word for word in the Bible that "Moses was in spirit form on the Mt of Transfiguration."

Eph replies....

The word in GREEK is ...METAMORPHOO..from which we get the word "metamorphosis"...This word METAMORPHOO is used in Rom 12:2....2 COR 3:18...each time it is used to describe a spiritual transformation...Thats why when " Moses and Elijah " APPEARED...it had to be a "spritiual" type of appearance...Because we know Moses was dead a long time..his physical body wasn't and couldn't resurrected because JESUS hadn't been cruicfied yet...

JesusServant · Dec 17, 2002

The two witnesses don't necessarily have to come from the Bible's past, they could be people living at that time.  But with the power they are given, it is most likely they are from the past to deserve such an honor and be trusted with such power.  I still hold that it could be two of the three of Moses, Elijah, and Enoch but lean towards Moses and Elijah.

While I agree with you ephraim on the reason the two of them appeared, I do not think that the only reason.  Why did Jesus not do this in front of all the disciples and why did he tell them not to tell others if it was simply to reenforce that they should listen to Jesus and not Moses nor Elijah?  I think there's more to this scene on the mount.

danrobinson_92562 · Dec 18, 2002

PC,

Revelation 11 talks about the 2 witnesses and the power they have given from God. I don't think any false prophet or demon will be able to perform the plagues it is talking about. Also, they will try to be destroyed by men because of their testimony. God gave them the power to protect themselves until the beast destroys them.

I think, by there actions, that people will know they are truly from God.

Higher Truth · Dec 18, 2002

I also believe that the Two Witnesses are Moses and Elijah. Moses represents the Law [Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, Deut] also known as Torah. Elijah represents the Prophets [the other writings of the OT] Moses and Elijah have already demonstrated the 'powers' stated in the scripture pertaining to the Witnesses. I do not believe that fire will come out of their mouths. I believe that they will be able to speak the word and call down the fire.

JesusServant · Dec 18, 2002

Originally posted by Higher Truth
I also believe that the Two Witnesses are Moses and Elijah. Moses represents the Law [Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, Deut] also known as Torah. Elijah represents the Prophets [the other writings of the OT] Moses and Elijah have already demonstrated the 'powers' stated in the scripture pertaining to the Witnesses. I do not believe that fire will come out of their mouths. I believe that they will be able to speak the word and call down the fire.

Excellent points about Moses and Elijah, another reason for me to lean towards them.  However, I only halfway agree with you on the fire, I believe the fire that will consume their enemies from their mouths is merely truth, just like Jesus.  He was prophesied and expected to burn His enemies with fire from His mouth... and he did, just not the way it was anticipated.

Higher Truth · Dec 18, 2002

I know what you are saying, but let's not forget Elijah and his encounter with the prophets of baal. Remember, he called down fire that was so intense that there was nothing left but a pit. He has already demonstated this ability in the natural, just like Moses and the plagues that he spoke against pharoah. The word, in itself, is a serious weapon. When the Messiah returns He will have a two edged sword in His mouth. I believe that this means that He will be able to speak destruction similiar to what happened at sodom and gomorrah. Our God is not an anemic God, He is the Mighty Warrior King [Lord of Hosts] and Jesus is the Mighty Lion of Judah.

JesusServant · Dec 18, 2002

Good points, Jesus will definately be the lion when he returns.  It could go either way...

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 19, 2002

Originally posted by JesusServant
The two witnesses don't necessarily have to come from the Bible's past, they could be people living at that time.  But with the power they are given, it is most likely they are from the past to deserve such an honor and be trusted with such power.  I still hold that it could be two of the three of Moses, Elijah, and Enoch but lean towards Moses and Elijah.

While I agree with you ephraim on the reason the two of them appeared, I do not think that the only reason.  Why did Jesus not do this in front of all the disciples and why did he tell them not to tell others if it was simply to reenforce that they should listen to Jesus and not Moses nor Elijah?  I think there's more to this scene on the mount.

Eph replies...

True...it can be ANY Saint...But here's the kicker...

IF it's a NT Saint..that is part of the NT Church...That person would be "caught up" to Heaven in the rapture...and then returned to earth...

I am not sure that will happen because then the question would arise..Did that Saint attend the "wedding supper" and then return..OR did they miss it because the returned..? See REV 19:9...and 19:17...2 different "supper's" are being spoken of...!

So for me it's has to be 2 "Saints" from the OT days that return...!

My best guess is Enoch and Elijah....because no record of physical death exists in scripture about them...Moses on the other hand is a close third place pick...!

Because the scriptures say he did die....and was buried in Moab...! See DEUT 34:5:8...

The miracles these two Saints preform in REV days...are simular to what Moses did...But God can allow anyone to do them...not just Moses....So Moses gets no special pick from me just because the miracles those 2 Saints preform are like the ones he did...!

EPHRIAM777 · Dec 19, 2002

Originally posted by danrobinson_92562
PC,

Revelation 11 talks about the 2 witnesses and the power they have given from God. I don't think any false prophet or demon will be able to perform the plagues it is talking about. Also, they will try to be destroyed by men because of their testimony. God gave them the power to protect themselves until the beast destroys them.

I think, by there actions, that people will know they are truly from God.

Eph adds...

...One of the little differences with these 2 Witnesses...is They use God's power whenever THEY want...God basically gives them free reign to use the power they have..Notice in REV 11:8...it says.."as often as THEY will"..It doesn't say....they ask God first...to allow them to smite the earth with plagues...OT prophets always saught the Lord before they did anything..

Not these 2 guys...They just do what they want..when they want...God has that much TRUST in them.....( thats where I say in my own mind "wow" )..!

Plus these 2....don't preach the Gosple during this time..They have a testimony that is NOT the Gosple of Jesus Christ..! It's more of a OT - NT blend of redemption...Grace and Peace isn't what the preach...Because they also kill people with fire from their mouth...if people try to hurt them...WE as Christians don't "kill" people that want to hurt OUR testmony...Thus these 2 guys aren't preaching Grace and Peace...which IS the message of the NT Church Saints..( another reason why I don't think these 2 are NT Church Saints returned to earth...)

Who are the two Witnesses?

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