Which came first, Covenant or Dispensation ?

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dan p

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Covenant Theology says that the gospel began in Genesis, and that The gospel of Works began with Adam in the Garden of Eden. The rule than was for Adam , NOT to touch or eat of the fruit. Gen 2:17

1) Covenant Theology says that gospel began in Genesis .

2) They say that the Covenant of works began with Adam and when he sinned he was expelled from the Garden and then began

3) The Covenant of Grace, but I can't find these two words together. So Adams failure brought the Covenant of Grace.

4) The Covenant that was given to Moses were 613 Law, with 365 positive and 248 negative Law and see that Christ death on the cross did away with the first Covenant and will bring in the New Covenant in the Millennium Heb 8:7-13 .

5) Most Christians say that dispensations are johnny come lately, and NOT to be taken seriously, even when they are shown that the Apostle Paul was given to him in 6 different places in the Bible and will just mention one in 1 Cor 9:17, where a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. See also Eph 1:10 ; Col1:258 ; Eph 3:2 ; Eph 3:9 ; and 1 Tim 1:4 where it is the word edifying, Vine says it the word dispensation

6) Which came first the chicken or the egg ?


7) I say that Dispensations came first and scripture says so.


8) Eph 1:4 says so . According as he has CHOSEN US in Him BEFORE the Foundation of the WORLD. So Eph 1:4 , PRE-dates Gen 1:1, how about that.

9) Lets look at another one , in 2 Tim 1:9. Saved us, called us , to his purpose, which was given to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the WORLD BEGAN. This is another verse that PER- DATES Genesis 1:1.

10) That means that Dispensations were first.
 

Terral

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Hi Dan:

Covenant Theology says that the gospel began in Genesis, and that The gospel of Works began with Adam in the Garden of Eden. The rule than was for Adam , NOT to touch or eat of the fruit. Gen 2:17

1) Covenant Theology says that gospel began in Genesis .

There is no Hebrew or Aramaic term translated into ‘gospel’ even one time anywhere in the Old Testament. Go ahead and try to find one example of anyone ‘preaching’ a ‘good news’ message for the ‘forgiveness of sins’ and ‘salvation’ of anyone in the Old Testament to realize that concept does NOT even exist in the Hebrew mindset. The Jews anticipate being resurrected and to be led into the land of Israel (Eze. 37:11-12) when the whole house of Israel is saved.

2) They say that the Covenant of works began with Adam and when he sinned he was expelled from the Garden and then began.

The Lord God (Christ) establishes His covenant with Noah (Gen. 6:18) mentioned seven times in Genesis 9 and then with Abraham in Genesis 15:18 in connection to the Promised Land mentioned ten times in Genesis 17.

3) The Covenant of Grace, but I can't find these two words together. So Adams failure brought the Covenant of Grace.

Hardly. “Grace” is one of the most rarely used terms in the Old Testament and in the Four Gospels (only once outside of Jn 1:14-17). In fact, try to find a Hebrew term translated into ‘faith’ more than one time in the OT to realize none exist. NASB. :0) The only place where you find the terms ‘grace’ and ‘faith’ together in the same verses are inside the Pauline Epistles addressed to Gentiles. Did the Lord God (Christ) dispense ‘grace’ to Israel through Moses? No. Let’s get real! :0) Paul writes:

“For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.” Romans 9:3-5.
The Lord God (Christ) took Israel out of the side of Isaac (type of Christ) and Abraham (type of God) in the same way He removed and formed Eve from the side of Adam to give ‘them’ the adoption as sons, and the glory (of the Temple) and the Covenants and the giving of THE LAW and the Temple Service and the Promises, whose are the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc..). Do we remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man and how the rich man begged Abraham to send and warn his brothers? :0) Did Abraham tell the rich man that his brothers had the Lord God’s grace? No!

"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'" Luke 17:27-31.
A man approached the Lord God (Christ) and asked what good thing he might do to inherit eternal life. Did Christ say that salvation is by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8-9) and that eternal life is the ‘gift of God’ (Rom. 6:23)?? No!!! You will find that the Lord God is sending the same exact message as Abraham above:

“And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17.
Jesus Christ is very insistent that the Law will remain until heaven and earth pass away for Israel of the flesh (Matt.. 5:18), saying,

"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.” Luke 16:17.
The reason that you cannot find God’s grace in the Old Testament is because that ‘grace’ is upon the Lord God (Christ) Himself in preparation for God milling that out at Calvary! That’s right! The few uses of the term “grace” in the Four Gospels find God’s grace upon our Lord Jesus Christ (Luke 2:40 = see Jn 1:17 again), which became the ‘provision’ for the “Dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) that began with the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts 9. Then think carefully and realize that Scripture calls Judaism the ‘ministry of death’ (2Cor. 3:7*) and the ‘ministry of condemnation’ (2Cor. 3:9*) because of the axiom saying,

“Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law [Israelites], so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law NO FLESH will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” Romans 3:19-20.
Now wake up to the realization that Paul is teaching ‘a time’ BEFORE faith came, which includes the Old Testament and the Four Gospels:

“But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But ’now’ that faith has come, we are NO LONGER under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:22-28.
Now, to address your OP point: Retrace your steps backwards to the ‘covenants’ and the ‘promises’ and the “Law” given to Israel of the flesh through MOSES as ‘their’ way of ‘keeping the commandments’ for obtaining eternal life, which is your point #4:

4) The Covenant that was given to Moses were 613 Law, with 365 positive and 248 negative Law and see that Christ death on the cross did away with the first Covenant and will bring in the New Covenant in the Millennium Heb 8:7-13.

Christ’s death on the cross did away with the first Covenant? :0) No way baby! Israel of the flesh is standing in Malachi 4:5-6 waiting for Elijah to appear and restore their hearts ‘and’ very much under Mosaic Law and the same ‘covenants’ and ‘promises’ that Paul talks about in Romans 9:1-5. The Lord God (Christ) must actually establish the “New Covenant” with Israel and Judah ‘before’ His promises pass away concerning the already-established Old Covenant. The fact that Christ is the END of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes ‘our gospel’ changes NOTHING about the relationship that the Lord God has with those remaining under Mosaic Law as their tutor. Read about how the New Covenant is established between the Lord God and ‘David’ in Ezekiel 34:25, which remains very much in the future.

5) Most Christians say that dispensations are johnny come lately, and NOT to be taken seriously, even when they are shown that the Apostle Paul was given to him in 6 different places in the Bible and will just mention one in 1 Cor 9:17, where a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. See also Eph 1:10 ; Col1:258 ; Eph 3:2 ; Eph 3:9 ; and 1 Tim 1:4 where it is the word edifying, Vine says it the word dispensation

6) Which came first the chicken or the egg?

The chicken. Which came first? The man or the womb? Genesis 2:7? :0) God already had relationships with everyone here as “gods” (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34) in His Infinite Realm LONG before this Universe was ever called into being. Therefore, dispensations came LONG before the Lord God had any need to formulate any covenants and promises based upon WORKS of anyone.

7) I say that Dispensations came first and scripture says so.

We agree. :0)

8) Eph 1:4 says so . According as he has CHOSEN US in Him BEFORE the Foundation of the WORLD. So Eph 1:4 , PRE-dates Gen 1:1, how about that.

Well, you are half right. :0) A careful examination of Genesis 1 will reveal that ‘eth Erets (The Earth) of Genesis 1:1 is actually a Singularity Expression form of “Adam” (diagram = in blue) that includes the heavens, heaven and earth (diagram) as one thing. The Big Bang theory of Creation is A MYTH (my thread), which means that massive Big Bang actually marks the ‘destruction’ (formless and void = Gen. 1:2) of an already-existing perfect universe where angels and men are joined into ‘one immortal man.’ When Scripture talks about 'before the foundation of the world,' then God is talking about ‘before’ the heavens were formed LONG AGO and the earth (Helper/Earth) was formed out of water (2Peter 3:5) as a ‘water witness’ helper for ‘heaven’ in Genesis 1:6-8. Therefore, if you modify your statement to say, “So Eph. 1:4, PRE-dates Gen. 1:6-8 . . .,” then we will agree. :0)

9) Lets look at another one , in 2 Tim 1:9. Saved us, called us , to his purpose, which was given to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the WORLD BEGAN. This is another verse that PER- DATES Genesis 1:1.

10) That means that Dispensations were first.

We agree that ‘dispensations’ preexist even Genesis 1:1, because we are ‘gods’ from God’s Infinite Realm (far left) and preexist the beginning where God called the Heaven (The Word/Christ) and Earth (The Creation/Adam) into being. However, remember that the “Heaven” of Genesis 1:1 is “The Word” where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ‘also’ ONE and the same thing. :0) The problem with your hypothesis is that “Christ Jesus” is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (pic) as the ‘Triune’ Son of God who only came to exist AFTER God sacrificed “The Word/Heaven.” This means that the perfect Singularity Expression (The Word) preexists the ‘world’ (heaven, heaven and earth) as we see those three witnesses today. In other words, “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” is ‘one’ and the same thing as the Son and Holy Spirit bound up in “the Heaven” of Genesis 1:1, until God sacrificed Them (F+S+HS) and sent Them into the universe as “The Light” of Genesis 1:3. Therefore, God cannot find ‘us’ (believers in the gospel) “IN” Christ Jesus BEFORE Genesis 1:1, because ‘at that time’ (John 1:2) He was still “with God” existing in His Singularity Expression Form. In short: God created the Heaven (The Word) and Earth (Adam) ‘before’ the six days of ‘reconstitution’ recorded in Genesis 1:3-31, so God must choose us IN Christ Jesus ‘after’ John 1:2, but before the heavens, heaven and earth are called to exist in John 1:3.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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dan p

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Hi Terral, good to hear from you as I thought that you were not going to post any more. You sure are right that Grace is not mentioned , like Paul develops Grace. They always remind me that grace and truth came by Jesus, that does not mean that Jesus spoke of the Dispensation of the Grace of God. You had me worried that you had left. Good to hear from you. dan p
 
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Terral

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Hi Dan:

Hi Terral, good to hear from you as I thought that you were not going to post any more.

You sure are right that Grace is not mentioned , like Paul develops Grace. They always remind me that grace and truth came by Jesus, that does not mean that Jesus spoke of the Dispensation of the Grace of God.

The Lord God who formed Adam from the dust of the ground is the “Lord” of Malachi 3:1 following “My messenger/angel” to His Temple as our Lord Jesus Christ in the NT. However, Christ’s ministry has ‘two’ parts (pic = water and blood = 1Jn 5:6) where the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, etc.) and His ‘Four Gospels’ ministry represents the ‘water witness’ component or “preaching the kingdom” (Acts 20:25*) part of the ‘whole purpose of God.’ Acts 20:27*. Of course Jesus Christ did not speak or teach about the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) given to Paul for our benefit during His earthly ministry, because at the time of the OT and Four Gospels, then our mystery church had yet to even exist. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
 
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TheScottsMen

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8) Eph 1:4 says so . According as he has CHOSEN US in Him BEFORE the Foundation of the WORLD. So Eph 1:4 , PRE-dates Gen 1:1, how about that.

.

Did Moses die in his sins? Did Enoch? King David? You are saved because God choose you before the foundation of the world.. but was everyone else before His death an after thought? Are they going to hell? The only way any man will not die in his sins is if he is found in Christ Jesus.
 
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TheScottsMen

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Hi Dan:

Hardly. “Grace” is one of the most rarely used terms in the Old Testament and in the Four Gospels (only once outside of Jn 1:14-17). In fact, try to find a Hebrew term translated into ‘faith’ more than one time in the OT to realize none exist. NASB. :0) The only place where you find the terms ‘grace’ and ‘faith’ together in the same verses are inside the Pauline Epistles addressed to Gentiles. Did the Lord God (Christ) dispense ‘grace’ to Israel through Moses? No. Let’s get real! :0) Paul writes:

I suppose the Trinity does not exist because it is not so easily laid out in the Old Testament?:p

Without spending a lot of time before I need to hit the sack, to say that grace is rarely (you imply this by stating that the term itself is not found often) found in the OT is a bit off.

Did the Jews understand God as dispensing grace? I would think so.

Num 6:24-26 - The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.

You make God into a harsh judge in the OT. A God with no grace, but only fire and brimstone. What would the sinners such as the Ninevites declare with Jonah?

Jonah 4:2 "I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness (hesed)"

Does this conform to your image of Him in the Old Testament?

"Surely goodness and grace will pursue me [the Hebrew has a stronger word than just "follow"] all the days of my life, and I will return [lit. Heb.] to the house of the Lord forever" (Ps 23:6).

Spoken from a Jew about His God. How does he view Him? Rightly?

The biggest expression of grace to all those from Adam to today is Jesus Christ. God does not need us. We should never feel that we are in debt to God for what Christ did, as there is NOTHING we can do to repay it, nor is God as foolish as we are to expect it. This is called the debtor's ethic.
 
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Terral

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Hi ScottsMen:

And this is supposed to represent a rebuttal to my answer to the Opening Post in Post #2? :0) This should be fun:

I suppose the Trinity does not exist because it is not so easily laid out in the Old Testament?

What in the heck is ‘The Trinity,’ as if there is only one? Would that be God To Come (spirit), God Who Is (blood witness) and God Who Was (water witness = pic) speaking in Genesis 1:26-28 about ‘Our image’ (Our Triune Image) and "Our likeness" described in Revelation 1:8? Or, would that be the three witnesses (1Jn 5:7-8) of ‘The Word’ (F+S+HS) laid out in Matthew 28:19? Or, would that be the heavens, heaven and earth described in the ‘waters above’ the expanse and the ‘waters below’ the expanse when ‘heaven’ (Gen. 1:8 = pic) was called to exist as the ‘blood witness’ (begotten like The Son and your soul) testifying between the witness of spirit (heavens) and water (earth) from 2Peter 3:5? Or, would that be the triune spirit, soul and body (pic) from 1Thes. 5:23 that represents the ‘trinity’ working inside every man, woman and their seed (family = a trinity too), OR any of the trinities from these two charts (here and here = from "The Mystery Explained")?? :0) Even your Bible (pic) is laid out according to the same ‘trinity’ relationship that exists between God (spirit), The Word (blood witness) and the Adamic Universe (water witness = pic = now 'triune'), as these things are CLEARLY laid out in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation and everywhere in between.

Without spending a lot of time before I need to hit the sack, to say that grace is rarely (you imply this by stating that the term itself is not found often) found in the OT is a bit off.

There is a big difference between mere ‘grace’ and “God’s Grace” and a vast difference between ‘grace’ and the “Dispensation of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) given TO PAUL (Col. 1:25 = translated 'stewardship') for our benefit. Perhaps you should draft these replies in the morning ‘after’ TheScottsMen has had the opportunity to gain a long night of restful sleep. :0)

id the Jews understand God as dispensing grace? I would think so.

Oh, so now you are going to question me to death. Wonderful! :0)

Num 6:24-26 - The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you, and be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.

And be gracious to you? Lord-Have-Mercy . . . Somebody has bumped his head . . . again . . . The Hebrew term (from Num. 6:25) you are trying to transform into ‘grace’ (LOL) is a ‘verb’ (chanan #2603), but exactly how many people in the Old Testament were ‘saved’ by God’s ‘grace’ through ‘faith’ in the ‘blood’ sacrifice of Jesus Christ by obeying ANY ‘gospel’ message? The answer again is ZERO. Because you are definitely unaware, there is no Hebrew term translated into “Gospel” anywhere in the Old Testament, just like there is no Hebrew or Aramaic term translated into ‘believer’ found anywhere in the OT (NASB). In short: TheScottsMen is trying to tear down the ‘Second Veil’ of Scripture (pic again) in order to begin dispensing Kingdom ‘and’ Grace Doctrine from the New Testament (for the 'Two Churches') to anybody he wishes in the Old Testament, as if he is authorized by God Himself to begin some kind of Grace Charity Mission For OT Saints. :0)

You make God into a harsh judge in the OT. A God with no grace, but only fire and brimstone. What would the sinners such as the Ninevites declare with Jonah?

You have no idea! :0) Israel of the flesh looks forward to a ‘resurrection’ and to be led into the “Land of Israel” (Eze. 37:11-12) very much ON THE EARTH, but ‘we’ (Body of Christ = Church #2) already have ‘Citizenship IN HEAVEN’ (Phil. 3:20) in “His HEAVENLY Kingdom” (2Tim. 4:18) right this moment as we speak. BTW, are you talking about “God” from Genesis 1 (Only True God from John 17:3) who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4), OR the “Lord God” (Christ) from Genesis 2:4+ who formed Adam (son of God = Luke 3:38) using His own two hands in Genesis 2:7? Those of you who DO NOT know the differences between the “Only True God” AND “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” (spirit witness of "The Word") can begin here.

Jonah 4:2 "I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness (hesed)"

Does this conform to your image of Him in the Old Testament?

More questions? :0) I should think that a man actually trying to challenge my reply to Dan’s Opening Post would have more in the way of ‘supported arguments’ rather than offering up vain attempts at questioning me to death using quotes from Jonah 4! :0) Did I say one thing to Dan in Post #2 about ‘gracious’ and a ‘verb’ used to describe how the Lord God (Christ) is dealing with people in the Old Testament? No. Jonah obeyed NO gospel message to receive eternal life as a ‘free gift’ (Rom. 6:22-23) by God’s grace through faith APART from works (Eph. 2:8-10), as if Jonah even had the opportunity to ‘hear’ (Rom. 10:17) and ‘believe’ (Eph. 1:13-14) our gospel for today (1Cor. 15:1-4). The fact is that our “inheritance of the saints IN LIGHT” (Col. 1:12) has NOTHING to do with any “covenant” at all. NONE. The “New Covenant” shall be made between the Lord God (Christ) and the Houses of Israel and Judah (Heb. 8:8-12) and the Old Covenant was made between the Lord God and ISRAEL (Rom. 9:1-4); even though Israel reads the “old covenant” while the “same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed IN Christ.” 2Cor. 3:14.

"Surely goodness and grace will pursue me [the Hebrew has a stronger word than just "follow"] all the days of my life, and I will return [lit. Heb.] to the house of the Lord forever" (Ps 23:6).

David (like Abraham, Joshua, Elijah, John the Baptist and the coming “prophet”) has a special relationship with the Lord God (Christ), because he is just another “skin” (Gen. 3:21 = olive tree/lampstand) for your father Adam the “son of God” (Luke 3:38 = everyone else is 'adopted as sons'). David is not saying that he will return to the house of the Lord forever (as you suggest), but David/Elijah/Adam “will dwell/remain/abide” (yashab #3427) in the ‘house’ (bayith #1004) of the Lord forever. The “House of the Lord” represents a depiction of the “Tabernacle of David” (Acts 15:16-18 = pic = also 'trinue'), which is the ‘earthly copy’ (read through Hebrews 8:1-6 carefully concerning the earthly ‘copy’ of things in heaven = “True Tabernacle”) of the also ‘triune’ True Tabernacle (Fig 2) in what David and Solomon call the “Highest Heaven” (1Kings 8:27). Let me use your methodology and ask a simple question that I KNOW for a fact that TheScottsMen cannot answer:

Question >> Do you know the differences between the “Highest Heaven” (Gen. 1:1 = pic* = in red) and ‘heaven’ (Gen. 1:8 = blood witness in blue* between 'heavens' and 'earth') of this Adamic Universe?? :0)

Even Jesus Christ of the flesh (“we” know that way NO LONGER = 2Cor. 5:16-17) is seated IN the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6 = 'above all the heavens' of this Adamic Realm). So, here is another question that you cannot even begin to answer:

Question >> Does TheScottMen know the differences between Jesus of the flesh ‘and’ Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) IN whom those ‘heavenly places’ are contained?

No? Those seeking this knowledge can begin on my thread here.

[Continued] :0)
 
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Terral

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Spoken from a Jew about His God. How does he view Him? Rightly?

No. Spoken by the ‘son of God’ (Luke 3:38) about the “Lord God” (Christ) who formed him in the Garden with everyone here IN him (1Cor. 15:22). Let’s try another question:

Question >> Who can tell us the reason of why David danced naked, and wearing only his linen ephod (2Sam 6:14), before the Ark of the Covenant entering the City of David?

Any clues? The answer again is that David is another ‘skin’ (Gen. 3:21) for your father Adam and the Ark of the Covenant is the earthly representation of the ‘tree of life’ (Gen. 2:9) where the “Holy Spirit” (Ps. 51:11) stands between the wings of the cherubim; like they “guard the way back to the tree of life” in the ‘heavenly’ counterpart. Note that the “wings were touching each other in the center of the house” (1Kings 6:27), which is an earthly copy of things very much IN HEAVEN even right this moment as we deliberate these things on the earth. While there are a myriad of things to learn from the ‘triune relationships’ existing between the heavenly (Christ’s = real) and earthly (David/Adam’s = copy) tabernacles, the Lord God forbids further revelation at this time, “but of these things we CANNOT speak in detail” (Heb. 9:5); even during the upcoming 1000 Year Day of the Lord (my thread).

The biggest expression of grace to all those from Adam to today is Jesus Christ.

More than you know. :0) Of the five uses of the term "charis" (#5485 BLB) translated into ‘grace’ in the Four Gospels (NASB), only one (Luke 2:40) falls outside John 1:14-17 ‘and’ every use of the term has direct application to our Lord Jesus Christ.

God does not need us. We should never feel that we are in debt to God for what Christ did, as there is NOTHING we can do to repay it, nor is God as foolish as we are to expect it. This is called the debtor's ethic.

God does not need us? What kind of foolishness is that? Scripture says,

"Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name.” Acts 15:14.
If God does not need the Gentile-dominant ‘Body of Christ’ (Church #2), then why His concern? :0) The fact is that God is about to chain Satan (Rev. 20:2 = Rev. 1:10) and all the members of his evil body of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12), which means SOMEBODY must occupy those vacated seats in the heavenly places! Our mystery church is destined to judge the world ‘and’ the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3), which means that God definitely needs the ‘sons of God’ for carrying out His “purpose for the ages.” Eph. 3:11. Since the Creation itself is groaning (anxious longing) in anticipation and waiting ‘eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God’ (Rom. 8:19), then let’s stop pretending that God does not even need us; when ‘we’ are to become the very ‘righteousness OF GOD IN Christ.’ 2Cor. 5:21. I am,

IN Christ Jesus right now,

Terral
 
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TheScottsMen

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I think we may disagree a lot more than what I thought! Since I seem to be very good at asking questions, let me ask just one more.

Would you agree with the statement below?

We worship one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 44:6-8; Exodus 3:15). God is three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who share one essence--the Trinity (John 6:27; John 1:1, 14; Romans 8:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).

Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the incarnate second person of the Holy Trinity, fully God and fully man (John 1:1, 14), by the Power of the Holy Spirit was born of a Virgin (Luke 1:35) and existed before all time begotten of God the Father (John 1:2; John 1:18). He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19). Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah (John 1:49; Matthew 16:16). His coming was foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament (Acts 3:18-23). He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead (Acts 10:42) and His Kingdom will have no end (2 Peter 1:11).
 
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A Brother In Christ

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Did Moses die in his sins? Did Enoch? King David? You are saved because God choose you before the foundation of the world.. but was everyone else before His death an after thought? Are they going to hell? The only way any man will not die in his sins is if he is found in Christ Jesus.


only Christian from acts 2 to Rev 3 are found in Christ...

I challenge you to scripture
 
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A Brother In Christ

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Did Moses die in his sins? Did Enoch? King David? You are saved because God choose you before the foundation of the world.. but was everyone else before His death an after thought? Are they going to hell? The only way any man will not die in his sins is if he is found in Christ Jesus.


OT saint get their eternal life according to Dan 12:2,11-12 after the 2nd coming
 
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ARBITER01

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Just so everyone here is aware,..

Promotion and Proselytizing
You will not promote or proselytize beliefs or religions other than Christianity. For the purpose of these rules, Christianity is defined by Christian Forums' Statement of Faith.

CF supports the following as a statement of faith:

We worship one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Isaiah 44:6-8; Exodus 3:15). God is three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who share one essence--the Trinity (John 6:27; John 1:1, 14; Romans 8:9; Hebrews 1:2-3).

Our Lord, God and Savior, Jesus Christ, the incarnate second person of the Holy Trinity, fully God and fully man (John 1:1, 14), by the Power of the Holy Spirit was born of a Virgin (Luke 1:35) and existed before all time begotten of God the Father (John 1:2; John 1:18). He was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, resurrected on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) and is seated at the right hand of the Father (Mark 16:19). Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah (John 1:49; Matthew 16:16). His coming was foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament (Acts 3:18-23). He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead (Acts 10:42) and His Kingdom will have no end (2 Peter 1:11).
 
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ARBITER01

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Hmmm,... that's a whole lot of words there.

I find nothing wrong with CF's faith statement, and I agree with it wholeheartedly as it agrees with scripture,..

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

If you don't agree with it, and want to teach against it on here also, I figure you will slowly but surely remove yourself from this site in due time.
 
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ARBITER01

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Does that sound fair? Scripture says,

“For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.”

Well if you are approved as you think you are, then you are currently doing this,...

Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father.
That includes healing, prophesying, etc. etc. If you are not doing those things that Jesus commanded us, then you are no further approved than anyone else that isn't doing any of those things.

And I will repeat this, if you disagree with CF's statement of faith, it will only me a matter of time till you remove yourself from here by your own words.
 
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ARBITER01

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Hmmm,.. a busybody huh.

Well,.. a busybody does things to be doing them, and that is not my position. For instance, I can take just one line of scripture and completely defeat your position against the nicene creed without a massive amount of words,...

Act 20:28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in the which the Holy Ghost hath made you bishops, to feed the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood.
GOD hung upon that cross as the scripture says, not a man. Both Sinaiticus and Vaticanus as the earliest witnesses have "GOD" in the text. Case closed.

Most likely this is heading off topic, and that is not my objective.
 
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