Hi Dan:
Covenant Theology says that the gospel began in Genesis, and that The gospel of Works began with Adam in the Garden of Eden. The rule than was for Adam , NOT to touch or eat of the fruit. Gen 2:17
1) Covenant Theology says that gospel began in Genesis .
There is no Hebrew or Aramaic term translated into
‘gospel’ even one time anywhere in the Old Testament. Go ahead and try to find one example of anyone
‘preaching’ a
‘good news’ message for the
‘forgiveness of sins’ and
‘salvation’ of anyone in the Old Testament to realize that concept does NOT even exist in the Hebrew mindset. The Jews anticipate being resurrected and to be led into the land of Israel (
Eze. 37:11-12) when the whole house of Israel is saved.
2) They say that the Covenant of works began with Adam and when he sinned he was expelled from the Garden and then began.
The Lord God (Christ) establishes His covenant with Noah (
Gen. 6:18) mentioned seven times in
Genesis 9 and then with Abraham in
Genesis 15:18 in connection to the Promised Land mentioned ten times in
Genesis 17.
3) The Covenant of Grace, but I can't find these two words together. So Adams failure brought the Covenant of Grace.
Hardly. “
Grace” is one of the most rarely used terms in the Old Testament and in the Four Gospels (only
once outside of
Jn 1:14-17). In fact, try to find a Hebrew term translated into
‘faith’ more than one time in the OT to realize none exist. NASB. :0) The only place where you find the terms
‘grace’ and
‘faith’ together in the same verses are inside the Pauline Epistles addressed to Gentiles. Did the Lord God (Christ) dispense
‘grace’ to Israel through Moses? No. Let’s get real! :0) Paul writes:
“For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
who are Israelites, to whom belongs
the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.”
Romans 9:3-5.
The Lord God (Christ) took Israel out of the side of Isaac (type of Christ) and Abraham (type of God) in the same way He removed and formed Eve from the side of Adam to give ‘them’
the adoption as sons, and the glory (of the Temple) and
the Covenants and the giving of THE LAW and the
Temple Service and the Promises, whose are the fathers (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, etc..). Do we remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man and how the rich man begged Abraham to send and warn his brothers? :0) Did Abraham tell the rich man that his brothers had the Lord God’s grace? No!
"And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' But Abraham said,
'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' But he said to him, '
If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Luke 17:27-31.
A man approached the Lord God (Christ) and asked what good thing he might do to inherit eternal life. Did Christ say that salvation is by
God’s grace through faith apart from works (
Eph. 2:8-9) and that eternal life is the
‘gift of God’ (
Rom. 6:23)?? No!!! You will find that the Lord God is sending the same exact message as Abraham above:
“And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but
if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matthew 19:16-17.
Jesus Christ is very insistent that the Law will remain until heaven and earth pass away for Israel of the flesh (
Matt.. 5:18), saying,
"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.”
Luke 16:17.
The reason that you cannot find God’s grace in the Old Testament is because that
‘grace’ is upon the Lord God (Christ)
Himself in preparation for God milling that out at Calvary! That’s right! The few uses of the term
“grace” in the Four Gospels find God’s grace upon our Lord Jesus Christ (
Luke 2:40 = see
Jn 1:17 again), which became
the ‘provision’ for the
“Dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) that began with the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus in Acts 9. Then think carefully and realize that Scripture calls Judaism the
‘ministry of death’ (
2Cor. 3:7*) and the
‘ministry of condemnation’ (2Cor. 3:9*) because of the axiom saying,
“Now we know that
whatever the Law says, it speaks to
those who are under the Law [Israelites], so that every mouth may be closed and
all the world may become accountable to God; because
by the works of the Law NO FLESH will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”
Romans 3:19-20.
Now wake up to the realization that Paul is teaching
‘a time’ BEFORE faith came, which includes the Old Testament and the Four Gospels:
“But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise
by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But
before faith came, we were
kept in custody under the Law, being shut up to
the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that
we may be justified by faith. But
’now’ that faith has come, we are NO LONGER under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through
faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were
baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
Galatians 3:22-28.
Now, to address your OP point: Retrace your steps backwards to the
‘covenants’ and the
‘promises’ and the
“Law” given to Israel of the flesh through MOSES as ‘their’ way of
‘keeping the commandments’ for obtaining eternal life, which is your point #4:
4) The Covenant that was given to Moses were 613 Law, with 365 positive and 248 negative Law and see that Christ death on the cross did away with the first Covenant and will bring in the New Covenant in the Millennium Heb 8:7-13.
Christ’s death on the cross did away with the first Covenant? :0) No way baby! Israel of the flesh is standing in
Malachi 4:5-6 waiting for Elijah to appear and restore their hearts ‘and’
very much under Mosaic Law and the same
‘covenants’ and
‘promises’ that Paul talks about in Romans 9:1-5. The Lord God (Christ) must actually
establish the “New Covenant” with Israel and Judah ‘before’ His promises pass away concerning the already-established Old Covenant. The fact that Christ is the
END of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes ‘our gospel’ changes NOTHING about the relationship that the Lord God has with those remaining under Mosaic Law as their tutor. Read about how the New Covenant is established between the Lord God and
‘David’ in
Ezekiel 34:25, which remains very much in the future.
5) Most Christians say that dispensations are johnny come lately, and NOT to be taken seriously, even when they are shown that the Apostle Paul was given to him in 6 different places in the Bible and will just mention one in 1 Cor 9:17, where a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. See also Eph 1:10 ; Col1:258 ; Eph 3:2 ; Eph 3:9 ; and 1 Tim 1:4 where it is the word edifying, Vine says it the word dispensation
6) Which came first the chicken or the egg?
The chicken. Which came first? The man or the womb? Genesis 2:7? :0) God already had relationships with everyone here as
“gods” (
Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34) in His Infinite Realm LONG before this Universe was ever called into being. Therefore, dispensations came LONG before the Lord God had any need to formulate any covenants and promises
based upon WORKS of anyone.
7) I say that Dispensations came first and scripture says so.
We agree. :0)
8) Eph 1:4 says so . According as he has CHOSEN US in Him BEFORE the Foundation of the WORLD. So Eph 1:4 , PRE-dates Gen 1:1, how about that.
Well, you are half right. :0) A careful examination of Genesis 1 will reveal that
‘eth Erets (The Earth) of Genesis 1:1 is actually a Singularity Expression form of “Adam” (
diagram = in blue) that includes the
heavens, heaven and earth (
diagram) as one thing. The Big Bang theory of Creation is A MYTH (
my thread), which means that massive Big Bang actually marks the
‘destruction’ (formless and void = Gen. 1:2) of an already-existing perfect universe where angels and men are joined into
‘one immortal man.’ When Scripture talks about
'before the foundation of the world,' then God is talking about ‘before’ the heavens were formed LONG AGO and the earth (
Helper/Earth) was formed out of water (
2Peter 3:5) as a ‘
water witness’ helper for ‘heaven’ in
Genesis 1:6-8. Therefore, if you modify your statement to say,
“So Eph. 1:4, PRE-dates Gen. 1:6-8 . . .,” then we will agree. :0)
9) Lets look at another one , in 2 Tim 1:9. Saved us, called us , to his purpose, which was given to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the WORLD BEGAN. This is another verse that PER- DATES Genesis 1:1.
10) That means that Dispensations were first.
We agree that ‘dispensations’ preexist even Genesis 1:1, because we are
‘gods’ from
God’s Infinite Realm (
far left) and preexist the beginning where God called the
Heaven (The Word/Christ) and
Earth (The Creation/Adam) into being. However, remember that the
“Heaven” of Genesis 1:1 is
“The Word” where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ‘also’
ONE and the same thing. :0) The problem with your hypothesis is that
“Christ Jesus” is the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit (
pic) as
the ‘Triune’ Son of God who only came to exist AFTER
God sacrificed “The Word/Heaven.” This means that the perfect Singularity Expression (The Word) preexists the
‘world’ (heaven, heaven and earth) as we see those three witnesses today. In other words,
“My Father who is IN HEAVEN” is ‘one’ and the same thing as
the Son and
Holy Spirit bound up in “
the Heaven” of Genesis 1:1, until God sacrificed Them (F+S+HS) and sent Them into the universe as
“The Light” of Genesis 1:3. Therefore, God cannot find ‘us’ (believers in the gospel)
“IN” Christ Jesus BEFORE Genesis 1:1, because
‘at that time’ (John 1:2) He was still
“with God” existing in
His Singularity Expression Form. In short: God created the
Heaven (The Word) and
Earth (Adam)
‘before’ the six days of ‘reconstitution’ recorded in Genesis 1:3-31, so God must
choose us IN Christ Jesus ‘after’ John 1:2, but before the heavens, heaven and earth are called to exist in John 1:3.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral