B
Benefactor
Guest
Excuse me, Mr. Newbie chiming in. I have not read all the post. I will in time, but it seems to me that we can be sure the Body of Christ - the Christian Church, not the Jewish Church or Jacob's Church or Israel’s Church was started future of Matthew 16:18. "I will build my Church"
Let me indulge with a few question:
Is there everyone who does not accept this statement to mean that the "Church" spoken of here is future, future from the time Jesus made the statement? If not - why not? Why would the language not mean exactly what it says?
As to the exact date of when the body of Christ starts I think is covered here and there in all previous post. However, don't you believe based upon this passage that the "Church" of Christ, Christ Body the Church did not exits at the time Jesus made this statement?
Let me indulge with a few question:
Is there everyone who does not accept this statement to mean that the "Church" spoken of here is future, future from the time Jesus made the statement? If not - why not? Why would the language not mean exactly what it says?
As to the exact date of when the body of Christ starts I think is covered here and there in all previous post. However, don't you believe based upon this passage that the "Church" of Christ, Christ Body the Church did not exits at the time Jesus made this statement?
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Hi Skull:
I see problems in every Skull post on this CF.com Dispy Forum were mythological 'confident assertions' are par for the course. Jesus Christ is preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Gospel #1) for gathering disciples to the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) having NOTHING to do with Pauls Word of the Cross (Gospel #2) or our Mystery is Great (Eph. 5:32) Body of Christ (Church #2) assembly that began with the conversion of Paul on the Road to Damascus (Acts 9:15-16). There are only three gospels in the New Testament preached for the forgiveness of sins and the gathering of three completely separate dispensations under God.
1. Gospel of the Kingdom. Matt. 4:23, 9:35, 24:14, Mark 1:14-15, Acts 8:12. Gospel #1.
For gathering Kingdom Disciples to the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) for becoming a Kingdom of Priests. Exodus 19:5-6, 1Peter 2:9, Rev. 1:5-6, 5:10, etc.
2. Gospel of the Grace of God. Acts 20:24. Pauls my gospel (Rom. 2:16) that is according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY (Rom. 16:25). Gospel #2
For gathering Brethren to the Mystery Body of Christ for becoming kings/judges/rulers over the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3) already baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) to become the members of His Body Church (Col. 1:24 = Church #2).
3. The Eternal Gospel. Rev. 14:6.
This eternal gospel is preached during the final 45 days (see Daniel 12:11-13) leading up to the END of the Age (called blessed), when God calls the inhabitants of this world to become citizens of heaven, as The Elect of Matthew 24:30-31 (diagram on right).
Those blinded by Denominationalism (2Thes. 2:7-12 IN Antichrist on left) mix the first Two Gospels together (water + blood) to create their homegrown false gospel that God sent to NOBODY, which is the hallmark of Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy and Protestantism. The common misinterpretation is carried by the MANY (Matt. 7:13-14) on the road to destruction and those distorting the wisdom given him (Paul) to their own destruction (2Peter 3:14-16). Our Gospel (#2) is VEILED to those who are PERISHING (2Cor. 4:3-4), because the deluding influence has them by the nose and is slinging them around mercilessly; which creates a large spectacle for everyone looking back from the future into this evil age (Gal. 1:4).
In Christ Jesus by obeying Gospel #2 without adding works from Gospel #1,
Terral
I see problems in every Skull post on this CF.com Dispy Forum were mythological 'confident assertions' are par for the course. Jesus Christ is preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Gospel #1) for gathering disciples to the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) having NOTHING to do with Pauls Word of the Cross (Gospel #2) or our Mystery is Great (Eph. 5:32) Body of Christ (Church #2) assembly that began with the conversion of Paul on the Road to Damascus (Acts 9:15-16). There are only three gospels in the New Testament preached for the forgiveness of sins and the gathering of three completely separate dispensations under God.
1. Gospel of the Kingdom. Matt. 4:23, 9:35, 24:14, Mark 1:14-15, Acts 8:12. Gospel #1.
For gathering Kingdom Disciples to the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) for becoming a Kingdom of Priests. Exodus 19:5-6, 1Peter 2:9, Rev. 1:5-6, 5:10, etc.
2. Gospel of the Grace of God. Acts 20:24. Pauls my gospel (Rom. 2:16) that is according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY (Rom. 16:25). Gospel #2
For gathering Brethren to the Mystery Body of Christ for becoming kings/judges/rulers over the world and the angels (1Cor. 6:2-3) already baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) to become the members of His Body Church (Col. 1:24 = Church #2).
3. The Eternal Gospel. Rev. 14:6.
This eternal gospel is preached during the final 45 days (see Daniel 12:11-13) leading up to the END of the Age (called blessed), when God calls the inhabitants of this world to become citizens of heaven, as The Elect of Matthew 24:30-31 (diagram on right).
Those blinded by Denominationalism (2Thes. 2:7-12 IN Antichrist on left) mix the first Two Gospels together (water + blood) to create their homegrown false gospel that God sent to NOBODY, which is the hallmark of Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy and Protestantism. The common misinterpretation is carried by the MANY (Matt. 7:13-14) on the road to destruction and those distorting the wisdom given him (Paul) to their own destruction (2Peter 3:14-16). Our Gospel (#2) is VEILED to those who are PERISHING (2Cor. 4:3-4), because the deluding influence has them by the nose and is slinging them around mercilessly; which creates a large spectacle for everyone looking back from the future into this evil age (Gal. 1:4).
In Christ Jesus by obeying Gospel #2 without adding works from Gospel #1,
Terral
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Hi Skull and Brother IN Christ:
Brother In Christ appears unable to present his interpretations using complete sentences in well-designed paragraphs, which means our unbiased third-party readers are in little danger of being led astray or anywhere by his cut-off ramblings leading to nowhere. The doctrinal precepts teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (link = #1) and Pauls Word of the Cross (#2) gospel messages contain directly opposing components making them two very different good news messages. If you feel lucky and want to challenge my thesis statement, claims and conclusions, then simply head over to any of these threads (Gospels, Churches, Baptisms), quote any errors, and give us your best shot using Scripture. :0) This side of the debate is not holding his breath . . .
No! Check the Greek (here) to realize that the term Gospel does NOT appear in Galatians 3:8 and that this term (proeuaggelizomai #4283) is used only here in Scripture. The verse says that THE SCRIPTURE foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith preached the good news beforehand to Abraham, (saying), All the nations will be blessed in you. Gal. 3:8. This is a far cry from any preacher (Rom. 10:14-17) heralding the Word of the Cross (Gospel #2) to anyone in the OT, as if God had already raised Christ from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:1-4).
No. Skulls interpretation is nonsense, which is the point that Brother In Christ is attempting to make using the fewest words possible. :0) A reply to his points above looks like this:
This is Gospel #1 preached by John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve (pic) from my Two Gospels thread.
All of these are references to Gospel #2 or Pauls Word of the Cross (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message given through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:11-12).
Different from ours can mean anything, but Brother In Christ is the king of vague and obtuse to say the very least. There is a HUGE difference between good news AND a good news message PREACHED for the forgiveness of sins like we have for the Gospel of the Kingdom in water (Mark 1:4-5, Acts 2:38, 1Peter 3:21) AND in Christs shed blood (Eph. 1:7) for Pauls Word of the Cross gospel message for today. The good news preached beforehand to Abraham (skin for your father Adam where Sarah = Eve his helper) was that all the nations would be blessed IN him, which is a spin off from 1Cor. 15:22.
See what I mean? :0) Supposedly a gospel of oneness (Lord-Have-Mercy) is taught in Galatians 3:6, when all Paul did is recite the words of Genesis 15:6. :0) The gospel I preach among the Gentiles (Gal. 2:2*) is none other than Gospel #2 from my Two Gospels Thread that Paul calls the Gospel to the Uncircumcised (Gal. 2:7*) and the Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24). Peters Gospel To the Circumcised (Gal. 2:7 again) is the Gospel of the Kingdom (#1) that Peter preached since Matthew 10:5-7 and for the remainder of his entire life on this earth! While Paul was qualified to be preaching the Kingdom (Acts 20:25 = the Gospel of the Kingdom), according to his dual calling (Acts 9:15-16 = includes Israel of the flesh), Peter, John and James are Kingdom Disciples over the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) and DO NOT have membership in the spirit/blood portion of Christ Jesus (golden and red) where I and the Father are one (John 10:30). That is the very reason that Peter would write almost two decades later (in 2Peter) that these things given the Apostle Paul (wisdom given him) are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, as we can clearly seen people TO THIS DAY distorting the wisdom given him to their own destruction (2Peter 3:14-16), by making the same mistakes.
We are comparing Brother In Christs interpretations against those of Skull and myself in these debates, which gives these unbiased third-party readers every opportunity to determine if anyone is indeed approved (1Cor. 11:19) by rightly dividing the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15), OR if everyone here is full of hot air. :0)
Would that be destructive to the Gospel of the Kingdom that Christ Himself preached as the Gospel of God (Mark 1:14-15) for three long years BEFORE He shed one drop of blood for anyone? :0) Or, would that be destructive to Pauls Word of the Cross (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message that Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4) for the forgiveness of our sins (Eph. 1:7)? :0) Are you trying to defend the position that the Gospel of the Kingdom (#1) is your Gospel itself, OR are you trying to defend Pauls Word of the Cross as your version of the one gospel? The simple truth is that the Gospel of the Kingdom includes WORKS of repentance, confession of sins and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4-5, Acts 2:38), which does not even mention the fact that the Holy Spirit is also given by the laying of human hands (my new PP thread). Please show everyone here how you merge the two lists of doctrinal precepts for the Two Gospels and Two Churches together to create your one gospel and one church MYTHS. :0)
Please quote >> from my work and attack anything using Scripture. :0) I seriously doubt that either of you can call me names that include anything new. People oftentimes attack the person of their debating opponent in the moment that they run out of arguments to support their nonsense, and I do believe that neither of you have a case for much of anything.
I have read many of your posts on this Dispy Forum and rarely do any of them contain one line of Scripture to support any thesis statement, claims or conclusions. The fact that you can even say The Gospel means that somebody is mixing the Two Gospels together and thereby distorting the wisdom given him (Paul) for the destruction of somebody . . . NOT,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Brother In Christ appears unable to present his interpretations using complete sentences in well-designed paragraphs, which means our unbiased third-party readers are in little danger of being led astray or anywhere by his cut-off ramblings leading to nowhere. The doctrinal precepts teaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (link = #1) and Pauls Word of the Cross (#2) gospel messages contain directly opposing components making them two very different good news messages. If you feel lucky and want to challenge my thesis statement, claims and conclusions, then simply head over to any of these threads (Gospels, Churches, Baptisms), quote any errors, and give us your best shot using Scripture. :0) This side of the debate is not holding his breath . . .
No! Check the Greek (here) to realize that the term Gospel does NOT appear in Galatians 3:8 and that this term (proeuaggelizomai #4283) is used only here in Scripture. The verse says that THE SCRIPTURE foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith preached the good news beforehand to Abraham, (saying), All the nations will be blessed in you. Gal. 3:8. This is a far cry from any preacher (Rom. 10:14-17) heralding the Word of the Cross (Gospel #2) to anyone in the OT, as if God had already raised Christ from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:1-4).
No. Skulls interpretation is nonsense, which is the point that Brother In Christ is attempting to make using the fewest words possible. :0) A reply to his points above looks like this:
This is Gospel #1 preached by John the Baptist, Christ and the Twelve (pic) from my Two Gospels thread.
All of these are references to Gospel #2 or Pauls Word of the Cross (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message given through a revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:11-12).
Different from ours can mean anything, but Brother In Christ is the king of vague and obtuse to say the very least. There is a HUGE difference between good news AND a good news message PREACHED for the forgiveness of sins like we have for the Gospel of the Kingdom in water (Mark 1:4-5, Acts 2:38, 1Peter 3:21) AND in Christs shed blood (Eph. 1:7) for Pauls Word of the Cross gospel message for today. The good news preached beforehand to Abraham (skin for your father Adam where Sarah = Eve his helper) was that all the nations would be blessed IN him, which is a spin off from 1Cor. 15:22.
See what I mean? :0) Supposedly a gospel of oneness (Lord-Have-Mercy) is taught in Galatians 3:6, when all Paul did is recite the words of Genesis 15:6. :0) The gospel I preach among the Gentiles (Gal. 2:2*) is none other than Gospel #2 from my Two Gospels Thread that Paul calls the Gospel to the Uncircumcised (Gal. 2:7*) and the Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24). Peters Gospel To the Circumcised (Gal. 2:7 again) is the Gospel of the Kingdom (#1) that Peter preached since Matthew 10:5-7 and for the remainder of his entire life on this earth! While Paul was qualified to be preaching the Kingdom (Acts 20:25 = the Gospel of the Kingdom), according to his dual calling (Acts 9:15-16 = includes Israel of the flesh), Peter, John and James are Kingdom Disciples over the Prophetic Kingdom Bride (Church #1) and DO NOT have membership in the spirit/blood portion of Christ Jesus (golden and red) where I and the Father are one (John 10:30). That is the very reason that Peter would write almost two decades later (in 2Peter) that these things given the Apostle Paul (wisdom given him) are HARD TO UNDERSTAND, as we can clearly seen people TO THIS DAY distorting the wisdom given him to their own destruction (2Peter 3:14-16), by making the same mistakes.
We are comparing Brother In Christs interpretations against those of Skull and myself in these debates, which gives these unbiased third-party readers every opportunity to determine if anyone is indeed approved (1Cor. 11:19) by rightly dividing the word of truth (2Tim. 2:15), OR if everyone here is full of hot air. :0)
Would that be destructive to the Gospel of the Kingdom that Christ Himself preached as the Gospel of God (Mark 1:14-15) for three long years BEFORE He shed one drop of blood for anyone? :0) Or, would that be destructive to Pauls Word of the Cross (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message that Jesus is Lord and God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4) for the forgiveness of our sins (Eph. 1:7)? :0) Are you trying to defend the position that the Gospel of the Kingdom (#1) is your Gospel itself, OR are you trying to defend Pauls Word of the Cross as your version of the one gospel? The simple truth is that the Gospel of the Kingdom includes WORKS of repentance, confession of sins and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Mark 1:4-5, Acts 2:38), which does not even mention the fact that the Holy Spirit is also given by the laying of human hands (my new PP thread). Please show everyone here how you merge the two lists of doctrinal precepts for the Two Gospels and Two Churches together to create your one gospel and one church MYTHS. :0)
Please quote >> from my work and attack anything using Scripture. :0) I seriously doubt that either of you can call me names that include anything new. People oftentimes attack the person of their debating opponent in the moment that they run out of arguments to support their nonsense, and I do believe that neither of you have a case for much of anything.
I have read many of your posts on this Dispy Forum and rarely do any of them contain one line of Scripture to support any thesis statement, claims or conclusions. The fact that you can even say The Gospel means that somebody is mixing the Two Gospels together and thereby distorting the wisdom given him (Paul) for the destruction of somebody . . . NOT,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
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skullkrusher
Member
Terral:
Just to let you know, I won't be responding to any of your posts.
To every one else, I look forward to productive discussions.
To: ABOC -- I honestly don't know how to make the question any simpler re: how OT saints were redeemed -- precisely how do you believe their sins were atoned and they made right with a holy God. Was the blood of bulls and goats efficacious or not? If so, how?
Just to let you know, I won't be responding to any of your posts.
To every one else, I look forward to productive discussions.
To: ABOC -- I honestly don't know how to make the question any simpler re: how OT saints were redeemed -- precisely how do you believe their sins were atoned and they made right with a holy God. Was the blood of bulls and goats efficacious or not? If so, how?
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
They had the promise of Jesus Christ covering their sin with His blood
However as Heb 11 states in the FAITH CHAPTER ... names OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS recieved a promise BUT not the Best promise Heb 11:39-40, 2 peter 1:4
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Hi Skullkrusher:
No problem, Skull. I could not defend many of your interpretations either, even if given a kabillion years. If you (or anyone) ever see any errors in my work, then please “quote >> that” and show everyone your version of things using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15); but I certainly understand if you choose to say nothing and appear wise to somebody. Proverbs 17:28.
Please offer up your definition of ‘redemption’ and perhaps we will have something to debate. The believers in ‘our gospel’ (2Thes. 2:13-14, 2Cor. 4:3-4 = #2 here) have ‘redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace’ (Eph. 1:7), but that ‘redemption’ obtained by Christ (Heb. 9:12) is available ONLY to those who believe (Rom. 10:4, 1:16-17) our gospel. Nobody in the OT had any opportunity to ‘hear’ (Rom. 10:17) and ‘believe’ (Eph. 1:13-14) Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message, so obviously no OT saints were ‘redeemed’ like the members of the “Body of Christ” (Church #2 here) obeying our gospel for today. Ransoms were required and even ‘demanded of him’ for “the redemption of his life” (Ex. 21:30) with regard to oxen killing/goring people, but somehow I believe you are talking about something else. :0) Leviticus 25:24–52 has the most concentrated use of the term “redemption” anywhere in Scripture (geullah #1353 = 8 times), but again God is talking about ‘redemption of the land’ (Lev. 25:26) and “his right of redemption lasts a full year” (vs. 29) and “redemption rights” (vs. 31), the “redemption of houses” (vs. 32), so on and so forth.
The concept of ‘eternal redemption’ (aionios lytrosis = Heb. 9:12) that ‘we’ have IN Christ Jesus (apolytrosis = Rom. 3:24, 1Cor. 1:30) through our ‘one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) into Christ Himself (Gal. 3:27 = described here) is simply not part of the Hebrew mindset; as there is not even one Hebrew or Aramaic term translated into ‘Gospel’ anywhere in the Old Testament. In fact, the terms ‘faith’ and ‘grace’ never appear together in any OT verses, nor in the Four Gospels, nor the Kingdom Epistles of the NT; and there is no Hebrew term in the OT translated into ‘faith’ more than just one time. NASB. How were the OT saints ‘redeemed’ ??? The answer is ‘they were not redeemed’ to obtain a ‘heavenly inheritance,’ as everyone (save 2) were sent down to Sheol in anticipation of God raising Christ from the dead. The concept of ‘going to heaven’ is also not part of the Hebrew mindset, as all practicing Jews anticipate being resurrected and led into the Promised Land (Land of Israel). Eze. 37:11-12. Skull is apparently trying to transfer elements of “Grace Doctrine” from the Pauline Epistles back into the OT to ‘redeem’ OT Saints who had NO access to the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus at all . . .
If you do not know the answer, then the right course is to continue asking these kinds of questions and perhaps someone who ‘is’ approved (1Cor. 11:19) will come along and offer a lending hand; apart from the three-sentence drivel and chitchat. :0) First of all, sin is NOT imputed where there is no law. Romans 5:13. The Lord God (Christ) gave Israel the Law (Rom. 9:1-4) through Moses ‘and’ Israel shall be bound under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:17-19). The Kingdom Disciples included in Peter’s Prophetic Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29 = Church #1) are also very much under Mosaic Law (James 2:10) like everyone called to God through the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc. = Gospel #1). The sins of the ‘obedient’ OT Saints were ‘covered’ (kaphar #3722), until such a time that God made the provision for their redemption through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The OT Saints will be raised on the ‘last day’ (Jn 6:39-40, 44, 54), at the “Second Resurrection” (far right) at the “END of the Age” (see Daniel 12:11-13), to receive an inheritance in the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven” (Matt. 6:10) in David’s Kingdom described in Ezekiel 37:24-28 (far right again). Once they have served David (see Jer. 30:7-9 again) and his ‘forever’ throne (lower left this time), then they will be sent up Jacob’s Ladder (Gen. 28:12), which is actually David/Elijah/Adam’s Ladder leading up into Heaven where these Saints will serve the Lamb before His Throne in anticipation of taking part in the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (like Rev. 19:5-10) that ends every age. When these Saints have worked and worked and worked serving David and the Lamb for the sufficient amount of time (can be ages and ages like with Peter, John and James . . .), then they walk into the Lamb to join ‘us’ (Body of Christ) IN Christ Jesus to have an 'inheritance' and 'citizenship' in the “Highest Heaven” over in Figure #2 of this diagram.
In short: Every OT Saint will work and work and work (Romans 2:12-13, James 2:20-24) for ages and ages and ages to ‘earn’ the very same things that God has given ‘us’ (Body of Christ) for free ‘and’ THAT will be the source of Israel being made ‘jealous’ (Deut. 32:21, Rom. 10:19, 11:11) for all the ages to come. :0)
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
No problem, Skull. I could not defend many of your interpretations either, even if given a kabillion years. If you (or anyone) ever see any errors in my work, then please “quote >> that” and show everyone your version of things using Scripture (2Tim. 2:15); but I certainly understand if you choose to say nothing and appear wise to somebody. Proverbs 17:28.
Please offer up your definition of ‘redemption’ and perhaps we will have something to debate. The believers in ‘our gospel’ (2Thes. 2:13-14, 2Cor. 4:3-4 = #2 here) have ‘redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace’ (Eph. 1:7), but that ‘redemption’ obtained by Christ (Heb. 9:12) is available ONLY to those who believe (Rom. 10:4, 1:16-17) our gospel. Nobody in the OT had any opportunity to ‘hear’ (Rom. 10:17) and ‘believe’ (Eph. 1:13-14) Paul’s “Word of the Cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message, so obviously no OT saints were ‘redeemed’ like the members of the “Body of Christ” (Church #2 here) obeying our gospel for today. Ransoms were required and even ‘demanded of him’ for “the redemption of his life” (Ex. 21:30) with regard to oxen killing/goring people, but somehow I believe you are talking about something else. :0) Leviticus 25:24–52 has the most concentrated use of the term “redemption” anywhere in Scripture (geullah #1353 = 8 times), but again God is talking about ‘redemption of the land’ (Lev. 25:26) and “his right of redemption lasts a full year” (vs. 29) and “redemption rights” (vs. 31), the “redemption of houses” (vs. 32), so on and so forth.
The concept of ‘eternal redemption’ (aionios lytrosis = Heb. 9:12) that ‘we’ have IN Christ Jesus (apolytrosis = Rom. 3:24, 1Cor. 1:30) through our ‘one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) into Christ Himself (Gal. 3:27 = described here) is simply not part of the Hebrew mindset; as there is not even one Hebrew or Aramaic term translated into ‘Gospel’ anywhere in the Old Testament. In fact, the terms ‘faith’ and ‘grace’ never appear together in any OT verses, nor in the Four Gospels, nor the Kingdom Epistles of the NT; and there is no Hebrew term in the OT translated into ‘faith’ more than just one time. NASB. How were the OT saints ‘redeemed’ ??? The answer is ‘they were not redeemed’ to obtain a ‘heavenly inheritance,’ as everyone (save 2) were sent down to Sheol in anticipation of God raising Christ from the dead. The concept of ‘going to heaven’ is also not part of the Hebrew mindset, as all practicing Jews anticipate being resurrected and led into the Promised Land (Land of Israel). Eze. 37:11-12. Skull is apparently trying to transfer elements of “Grace Doctrine” from the Pauline Epistles back into the OT to ‘redeem’ OT Saints who had NO access to the redemption that is IN Christ Jesus at all . . .
If you do not know the answer, then the right course is to continue asking these kinds of questions and perhaps someone who ‘is’ approved (1Cor. 11:19) will come along and offer a lending hand; apart from the three-sentence drivel and chitchat. :0) First of all, sin is NOT imputed where there is no law. Romans 5:13. The Lord God (Christ) gave Israel the Law (Rom. 9:1-4) through Moses ‘and’ Israel shall be bound under Mosaic Law until heaven and earth pass away (Matt. 5:17-19). The Kingdom Disciples included in Peter’s Prophetic Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29 = Church #1) are also very much under Mosaic Law (James 2:10) like everyone called to God through the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc. = Gospel #1). The sins of the ‘obedient’ OT Saints were ‘covered’ (kaphar #3722), until such a time that God made the provision for their redemption through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The OT Saints will be raised on the ‘last day’ (Jn 6:39-40, 44, 54), at the “Second Resurrection” (far right) at the “END of the Age” (see Daniel 12:11-13), to receive an inheritance in the Kingdom of God “on earth AS IT IS in heaven” (Matt. 6:10) in David’s Kingdom described in Ezekiel 37:24-28 (far right again). Once they have served David (see Jer. 30:7-9 again) and his ‘forever’ throne (lower left this time), then they will be sent up Jacob’s Ladder (Gen. 28:12), which is actually David/Elijah/Adam’s Ladder leading up into Heaven where these Saints will serve the Lamb before His Throne in anticipation of taking part in the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb” (like Rev. 19:5-10) that ends every age. When these Saints have worked and worked and worked serving David and the Lamb for the sufficient amount of time (can be ages and ages like with Peter, John and James . . .), then they walk into the Lamb to join ‘us’ (Body of Christ) IN Christ Jesus to have an 'inheritance' and 'citizenship' in the “Highest Heaven” over in Figure #2 of this diagram.
In short: Every OT Saint will work and work and work (Romans 2:12-13, James 2:20-24) for ages and ages and ages to ‘earn’ the very same things that God has given ‘us’ (Body of Christ) for free ‘and’ THAT will be the source of Israel being made ‘jealous’ (Deut. 32:21, Rom. 10:19, 11:11) for all the ages to come. :0)
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
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skullkrusher
Member
Yes -- they were saved by grace, through faith, just as was Abraham, and just as we are. Which brings us to the issue of covenantal continuity/discontinuity, which is the pertinent issue to resolve between Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. If OT saints were bought by the blood of Christ, they are part of the universal church, the body of Christ.
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A Brother In Christ
Senior Veteran
The body of Christ has been indwelt by the Spirit.... upon salvation
OT saints do not recieve this till 75 days after the 2nd coming of Christ Daniel 12:2,11-12, rev??
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B
Benefactor
Guest
My brand of Dispensationalism simply believes those that are saved are saved on the basis of God's Grace through Faith in the message they had in their dispensation. Salvation is completely made possible in the work of God, that being the death burial and resurrection of Christ.
Furthermore, only those saved in this dispensation are in the "Body of Christ". This does not exclude all saved in the past and after the rapture from being in Christ but not as His bride. The Body of Christ was a mystery and it is unique to the purpose of God for this dispensation.
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Hi Brother In Christ, Skull and Scottsmen:
No. The fact is becoming plainly obvious that none of you have one clue. The fact that Skull and Scottsmen can come to the CF.com Dispy Forum and pretend there is only ‘one dispensation’ is a bit shocking to say the very least. Just how many times does the term ‘grace’ (charis) appear in Hebrews 11 in the famous Faith Chapter? The answer is ZERO. :0) Again, the ONLY PLACE in the ENTIRE BIBLE where the terms ‘faith’ (pistis) and ‘grace’ (charis) appear together in the same verses is inside the PAULINE EPISTLES written to GENTILES. The king of all Bible books with the most occurrences of ‘faith’ and ‘grace’ appearing together in the same verses is the Book of Romans (Rom. 1:5, 4:16, 5:2, 12:3, 12:6) with 1Timothy coming in second (1Tim. 1:2, 1:14, 6:21) and Titus in third (Titus 1:4, 3:15); and the ONLY other use of ‘faith’ and ‘grace’ together appearing in Ephesians 2:8.
There are exactly ZERO Old Testament Saints included in the Mystery “Body of Christ” (Church #2), as NOBODY in the OT had any opportunity to ‘hear’ (Rom. 10:17) and ‘believe’ (Eph. 1:13-14) OUR GOSPEL (#2 here). The Apostle Paul became the ‘first’ (protos = 1Tim. 1:15-16) member of Christ’s BODY (1Cor. 12:27) baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) and into His death (Rom. 6:3-4) to be “crucified with Christ” (Gal. 2:20), so God could THEN raise Paul up WITH CHRIST (Col. 3:1-3) and seat him IN the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) to become a ‘new creature’ (2Cor. 5:16-17) part of a completely “NEW Creation” (Gal. 6:15). Let’s quote Paul in his teaching to the Ephesians and see if the shoe fits ANYONE in the Old Testament:
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No. The fact is becoming plainly obvious that none of you have one clue. The fact that Skull and Scottsmen can come to the CF.com Dispy Forum and pretend there is only ‘one dispensation’ is a bit shocking to say the very least. Just how many times does the term ‘grace’ (charis) appear in Hebrews 11 in the famous Faith Chapter? The answer is ZERO. :0) Again, the ONLY PLACE in the ENTIRE BIBLE where the terms ‘faith’ (pistis) and ‘grace’ (charis) appear together in the same verses is inside the PAULINE EPISTLES written to GENTILES. The king of all Bible books with the most occurrences of ‘faith’ and ‘grace’ appearing together in the same verses is the Book of Romans (Rom. 1:5, 4:16, 5:2, 12:3, 12:6) with 1Timothy coming in second (1Tim. 1:2, 1:14, 6:21) and Titus in third (Titus 1:4, 3:15); and the ONLY other use of ‘faith’ and ‘grace’ together appearing in Ephesians 2:8.
There are exactly ZERO Old Testament Saints included in the Mystery “Body of Christ” (Church #2), as NOBODY in the OT had any opportunity to ‘hear’ (Rom. 10:17) and ‘believe’ (Eph. 1:13-14) OUR GOSPEL (#2 here). The Apostle Paul became the ‘first’ (protos = 1Tim. 1:15-16) member of Christ’s BODY (1Cor. 12:27) baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) and into His death (Rom. 6:3-4) to be “crucified with Christ” (Gal. 2:20), so God could THEN raise Paul up WITH CHRIST (Col. 3:1-3) and seat him IN the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6) to become a ‘new creature’ (2Cor. 5:16-17) part of a completely “NEW Creation” (Gal. 6:15). Let’s quote Paul in his teaching to the Ephesians and see if the shoe fits ANYONE in the Old Testament:
How many OT Saints had the opportunity to ‘listen to the message of truth, the gospel of our salvation’ to also ‘BELIEVE’ (Rom. 1:16-17, 10:4) to become an active participant in Christ’s death, burial and ultimate GLORIOUS RESURRECTION???!!! The answer is NONE of them! The simple fact escaping your notice is that all of ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16) remained “HIDDEN IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9), until AFTER God had already raised Christ from the dead! All of you FAIL miserably to realize that God had to HIDE His Hidden Wisdom from Satan and the evil forces of ‘this darkness’ (Eph. 6:12), OR the devil and his helpers would NEVER have crucified the Lord of Glory IN THE FIRST PLACE!!
Go back to the ministry of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ preaching the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, Mark 1:14-15) that the “Kingdom of heaven” was indeed “AT HAND” (Matt. 3:2, 4:17, 10:7) to realize that God tricked the devil and his heavenly hosts by offering up Jesus Christ as the KING of the Prophesied KINGDOM (Ex. 19:5-6). Who among the Twelve believed Jesus Christ when He told them over (Matt. 16:21) and over (Matt. 17:23) and over (Matt 20:19) again that He would suffer, die ‘and’ that God would raise Him from the dead on the third day?? The answer is NONE OF THEM! Christ appeared to WOMEN carrying spices to anoint THE LIVING [symbols of their 'lack' of faith], but Peter, John and James were all hiding and crying like babies. Christ told Mary to go and tell His disciples that “He has risen!,” but how many of the disciples believed her?
The essence of Paul’s “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16, 16:26) says that Jesus is Lord ‘and’ God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) ‘and’ that Christ died for our sins ‘and’ that God raised Him from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3-4) ‘and’ that our redemption is IN Christ (Rom. 3:24) ‘and’ that our forgiveness is THROUGH HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD (Eph. 1:7). Therefore, according to every definition in the Book, then Peter, John and James are all ‘UNBELIEVERS’ even at the END of the Four Gospels. Christ appeared to two of the disciples and sent them to the others to testify that “He has risen!”. Okay, so how many believed?
If Peter, John and James already knew that God would raise Christ from the dead on the third day from the OT Scriptures (that is ridiculous), then why are they all hiding and crying and even refusing to believe Mary and their fellow disciples simply testifying ‘after’ the third day that “He has risen!”?? :0) Many of you FAIL to realize that the people of Israel are the ones standing before Pilate and DEMANDING that Christ be crucified! Matt. 27:22-23. You FAIL to realize that Steven criticized and convicted Israel of the flesh, saying,
And now ‘you’ want to include these same OT Saints in our mystery “Body of Christ” (Church #2), as if they even HEARD our gospel ‘and’ had the opportunity to be OBEDIENT (Rom. 1:5, 16:26) to Paul’s “my gospel” that is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY.” Rom. 16:25. You come to this CF.com Dispy Forum in order to hand out and dispense “Grace Doctrine” from the Pauline Epistles to EVERYONE from Genesis to Revelation, which is a direct violation and distorting of the “wisdom given him” (God’s Hidden Wisdom = 1Cor. 2:6-8 above) and to “your own destruction.” 2Peter 3:14-16. Scripture says,
[Continued] :0)
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Again, God raised Paul up (Acts 9:15-16) to START the Mystery Body of Christ (our OP Topic) only AFTER God raised Christ from the dead! That was the ONLY WAY that God could trick Satan into murdering Christ, as the devil and the evil heavenly authorities thought they were ridding the world of the Prophesied KING and thereby ending any threat of the Kingdom of heaven being at hand. If ANYBODY in the OT knew about Pauls Word of the Cross gospel message and if ANYONE in the Four Gospels understood even the simplest precepts of Grace Doctrine from the Pauline Epistles (our crucifixion/resurrection with Christ), THEN the devil would have ALSO KNOWN and NEVER crucified the Lord of glory in the first place. Paul writes,
If any of you guys will simply read Vines definition of musterion (here), then perhaps you will come to realize that Pauls Gospel (#2) remained very much HIDDEN from the devil and Israel of the flesh and everyone else INCLUDING YOU today, until God Himself is ready to reveal these things by the illumination of His Spirit. Just how many times do Hebrews, Peter, John, James and Jude use the term mystery in all the NT Kingdom Books bearing all of their collective names? The answer again is ZERO. Why? :0) Christs Kingdom Disciples (from Church #1) are describing the Fulfillment of PROPHECY, while Paul is describing the revelation of THE MYSTERY (Rom. 16:25) and these things given TO HIM ALONE through visions and revelations of the Lord. 2Cor. 12:1. The things that Paul writes to us (Body of Christ) are the LORDS COMMANDMENT (1Cor. 14:37-38), because Paul is regurgitating these things that he received through a revelation of Jesus Christ (like our gospel = Gal. 1:11-12) that NOBODY in the OT and the Four Gospels and Early Acts were given to see. Our Gospel (#2) is VEILED to those who are PERISHING, because you FAIL to realize that this wisdom given him is completely unique and totally separate from Mosaic Law given to Israel (diagram* = in yellow) and totally separate from Kingdom Doctrine given to Israel of the flesh and Peters Prophetic Kingdom Bride (John 3:29 = Church #1 = in blue*). I am,
In Christ Jesus (Church #2),
Terral
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Benefactor
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15. "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. 16. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17. "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" 18. When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance {that leads} to life." 19. So then those who were scattered because of the persecution that occurred in connection with Stephen made their way to Phoenicia and Cyprus and Antioch, speaking the word to no one except to Jews alone. 20. But there were some of them, men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who came to Antioch and {began} speaking to the Greeks also, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21. And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a large number who believed turned to the Lord. 22. The news about them reached the ears of the church at Jerusalem, and they sent Barnabas off to Antioch.
As you can see the believers in Jerusalem are called "The church at Jerusalem. First, I see the church as starting in Acts two, but I know some of you don't. Further more the scripture above indicates that the ones saved in Acts 2 were actually a church according to these verses. The words "upon us as in the beginning" refer back to Jerusalem and then in verse 22 the believers who where saved them are call "the church at Jerusalem"
As you can see the believers in Jerusalem are called "The church at Jerusalem. First, I see the church as starting in Acts two, but I know some of you don't. Further more the scripture above indicates that the ones saved in Acts 2 were actually a church according to these verses. The words "upon us as in the beginning" refer back to Jerusalem and then in verse 22 the believers who where saved them are call "the church at Jerusalem"
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skullkrusher
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I don't remember all of which threads I have posted on re: the relationship between eschatology and soteriology -- if I'm repeating a previous post from this thread, I beg pardon.
At any rate, I would strongly encourage you to carefully consider the work of Christ as Prophet, Priest, and King -- particulalry His work as the "High Priest of our profession" and consider how the work of Christ as priest pertains to the gift of faith (hint: His blood purchased everything for the elect, including our faith).
Then, carefully consider the fact that "those without the Spirit are none of His (Christ's)." I believe the dispensational soteriological model contradicts the fuller revelation of the NT. Positiing your view of the work of the Spirit in the OT ultimately leads to necessarily concluding a fundamentally different means/method/source of justification in the OT, requiring a treatment of NT revelation as less than normative, and dismissing such as less than it truly is (IMO).
Then, carefully consider the fact that 'whatever is not of faith is sin'. The necessary implications of the dispensational perspective require one to argue that faith is less than normative -- both in the tribulation period and in the millenial reign, belief based upon sight, rather than faith, is concieved as a simple fact of reality, never mind that such conclusions run contrary to the consistent witness of Scripture -- that God's people are 'the faithful', 'those who believe', contrasted with those who 'require a sign', 'walk by sight', etc.
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