New transitional whale fossil

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gluadys

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gluadys said:
Barbarian said:
the Toyota is homologous to a Toyota sedan, and analogous to a Ford
Who said this?

Obviously, Barbarian did. But he didn't give an example of this alleged homology.

Can you, or he, or anyone else, specify something in different Toyotas (or any other make/style) of automobile that is an example of homology and explain how it is differentiated from analogous features?

I am not trying to be obtuse here. I really have no idea what, in automobiles, could be referred to as homologies.
 
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gluadys

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Barbarian observes:
Likewise, a Toyota pickup looks superficially more like a Ford pickup than it does many other Toyotas, but when you look at the details, you find that the Toyota is homologous to a Toyota sedan, and analogous to a Ford.


I see the description of the analogy clearly, Barbarian. A Toyota pickup looks superficially like a Ford pickup, just as a whale looks superficially like a fish or a pterodactyl looks superficially like a bird (minus feathers). But when you look at the underlying details, the whale is a mammal, not a fish, and a bird is more closely related to dinosaurs than to pterodactyls.

So, yes, a Ford pickup is analogous, not homologous to a Toyota pickup, despite the superficial resemblance.

But can you describe in more detail a homology that connects a Toyota pickup to a Toyota sedan? Or are you simply saying that they both have the same manufacturer.

I don't think being manufactured by the same company qualifies as being homologous. A homology is a distinct feature shared by two or more species. which may function in distinctly different ways e.g. the inner ear bones of a mammal which are homologous to parts of the lower jaw of reptiles.

After all, ants, algae and mushrooms were all made by the same Designer but share practically no homology beyond eukaryotic cells.
 
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gluadys,

FWIW:

The engine is an example of homology in automobiles. We observe that in different species of automobile, evolution has adapted a single structure in response to selective pressures. One. Some vehicles, for example, adapted for towing capacity. This allows them to be more efficient foragers. In such vehicles we observe that their engines contain more cylinders than usual, and that the cylinder volume has been augmented. Two. Others species have adapted for speed, allowing them to evade predators more effectively. Again, we see high-performance engines, but we note that evolution has reduced the vehicle's weight to make it more agile. Three. The most prolific vehicles have evolved superior reproductive capacity. Their engines typically have fewer, smaller cylinders, reducing the energy required to produce offspring. We conclude that many species of vehicle descend from the common ancestor in which the basic combustion engine design first emerged.

Convergent evolution is observed in some of the largest species of motor vehicle. An alternate diet, resulting in an engine structure with significant differences from the engines of the former group, indicates that the diesel engine evolved separately from the gasoline engine. Thus, we conclude that selection pressures, not ancestry, have caused the two to exhibit many of the same characteristics.

As a more recent example of evolutionary adaption, we observe that some of the higher orders of motor vehicle have developed secondary electric engines in response to food shortages and corresponding dietary changes. Further investigation is warranted, but we predict that species containing this electric engine structure will share ancestry with their ancestors. However, if electric engines are discovered in species that do not share ancestry, we predict that more evidence will be found that electric engines evolve independently due to convergence.

Another example of automobile homology is the chassis. We observe the same basic structure in nearly all motor vehicles, indicating that the chassis emerged very early in their history. Evolutionary pressures have adapted the chassis to different circumstances; some are significantly larger and stronger to accommodate a larger species with a more powerful engine. Others are small and light to facilitate agility in evading predators. If we include wheels under this heading, we observe that some species have adapted to have more than four wheels due to an environment where it was advantageous to carry heavy loads.

In conclusion, homology in motor vehicles is an important factor in constructing their family trees. However, we must be careful and not attribute convergent features to lineage.

Edit: This is meant to be a conceptual exercise to indicate how scientific methods used in biology might, in general, be applied to other classes of machines. No technical accuracy is implied.
 
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Mallon

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I'm not talking about miraculous design:

I'm also not talking about evolutionary convergence:


The parenthetical statement is a clue that I am referring to the observation of similarities unexplainable by heredity and positing an alternate explanation (i.e., design, instead of selective pressures). I am sure you have long since forgotten, but it was in fact Barbarian who has correctly explained that design results in analogy. But, once again, you demonstrate your inability to distinguish between an observation and an explanation. Please stop.

Moreover, the fact that you haven't understood even one of my arguments and keep committing the same basic scientific errors is a clue that your perception of my ignorance may be inaccurate.

Summary of what we've learned so far:

Design results in homology and analogy.
Design correctly predicts analogy in organisms.

Conclusion: It is inappropriate to automatically assume that any given example of homology is not due to design, thus fossils should not simply be labeled "transitional."

We have also learned that the only observed designers are non-divine.

So don't do it; the only person talking about miraculous design is you.


Who said this?
If it seems like I'm misunderstanding you, MiserableSinner, I can only apologize. But we're discussing what is fundamentally an issue of biology, and yet you refuse the use the terms 'homology' and 'convergence' as biologists use them. You're using an entirely different set of nomenclature, and so it is difficult to communicate with you on any meaningful level.
I am also hopelessly confused about your position on biological evolution. You've said nothing so far that would lead me to believe you accept it. Yet you also refuse to admit to the miraculous workings of God in designing life. Perhaps it would benefit all of us to know just what it is you believe about these things and why you believe it, that way maybe some of us can understand you.
 
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gluadys

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gluadys,

FWIW:

The engine is an example of homology in automobiles. We observe that in different species of automobile, evolution has adapted a single structure in response to selective pressures. One. Some vehicles, for example, adapted for towing capacity. This allows them to be more efficient foragers. In such vehicles we observe that their engines contain more cylinders than usual, and that the cylinder volume has been augmented. Two. Others species have adapted for speed, allowing them to evade predators more effectively. Again, we see high-performance engines, but we note that evolution has reduced the vehicle's weight to make it more agile. Three. The most prolific vehicles have evolved superior reproductive capacity. Their engines typically have fewer, smaller cylinders, reducing the energy required to produce offspring. We conclude that many species of vehicle descend from the common ancestor in which the basic combustion engine design first emerged.

Convergent evolution is observed in some of the largest species of motor vehicle. An alternate diet, resulting in an engine structure with significant differences from the engines of the former group, indicates that the diesel engine evolved separately from the gasoline engine. Thus, we conclude that selection pressures, not ancestry, have caused the two to exhibit many of the same characteristics.

As a more recent example of evolutionary adaption, we observe that some of the higher orders of motor vehicle have developed secondary electric engines in response to food shortages and corresponding dietary changes. Further investigation is warranted, but we predict that species containing this electric engine structure will share ancestry with their ancestors. However, if electric engines are discovered in species that do not share ancestry, we predict that more evidence will be found that electric engines evolve independently due to convergence.

Another example of automobile homology is the chassis. We observe the same basic structure in nearly all motor vehicles, indicating that the chassis emerged very early in their history. Evolutionary pressures have adapted the chassis to different circumstances; some are significantly larger and stronger to accommodate a larger species with a more powerful engine. Others are small and light to facilitate agility in evading predators. If we include wheels under this heading, we observe that some species have adapted to have more than four wheels due to an environment where it was advantageous to carry heavy loads.

In conclusion, homology in motor vehicles is an important factor in constructing their family trees. However, we must be careful and not attribute convergent features to lineage.

Edit: This is meant to be a conceptual exercise to indicate how scientific methods used in biology might, in general, be applied to other classes of machines. No technical accuracy is implied.


Well this is a little confusing to follow, because it is filled with reproductive references that don't apply. Since you objected to the biological qualification of reproduction, I asked that we leave that aside.

So the first basic homology you are referring to is the internal combustion engine which is used in most vehicles. It comes with a differing number of cylinders and with different levels of power and efficiency, but is basically the same feature, used in vehicles as different as tow-trucks, racing cars and sedans. Right?

This would seem to contradict Barbarian's claim that the Ford pickup is only analogous to the Toyota pickup, at least in this respect, because they both use the internal combustion engine in spite of their different manufacture.

You also refer to the chassis and to wheels as homologies.

Back to engines, you note the existence of two analogous designs: the diesel engine and the electric motor. One might have mentioned the steam engine as well--and then there is solar power. Also propane and hydrogen and hybrid vehicles. I don't know how many of them use a modified internal combustion engine and how many use something entirely different.

So far, so good.

You note that "homology in motor vehicles is an important factor in constructing their family trees."

I think my next question then is "can we actually construct an automotive family tree based on the proposed homologies?"

Consider, for example, the internal combustion and the diesel engine. It is true that the diesel engine is found most often in large vehicles such as tractor trailers and buses. But is it unique to these vehicles? Are not some smaller vehicles also run on diesel? And are these not in some way duplicates of vehicles using internal combustion?

As for vehicles using electricity, steam, propane, solar, hydrogen, diesel or other fuel---do we not find them in the same type of vehicles as the internal combustion engine is found in? In fact, do we not find the same producers making a two-door coupe with either a straight internal combustion engine or with a hybrid engine?

So where do we get a tree here? Vehicles from the same source may use very different engine types and vehicles from different sources may use the same engine types. Vehicles with different uses may use the same basic engine and vehicles with the same uses may use very different types of engines. I do not see a possibility for any tree at all.

In biology, homology is successfully used to establish relationships. One can count on a certain homology appearing in one and only one group. But it would seem such an endeavour in the auto-motive field would be fruitless.

One other note: all of the engines mentioned have the same basic function. No engine has been modified for any purpose other than providing motive power to the vehicle. In biology we often see homologous features in which the structure is similar, but the use of the structure is quite different. One can hardly imagine functions as different as supporting a jaw and transmitting sound waves; but the inner ear bones of mammals are homologies of part of the jaw structure of reptiles.


I am not sure that the internal combustion engine can be seen as a homology. It is certainly basic to many different vehicles. But it serves the same purpose in all of them--something that is more characteristic of analogy than homology. And I cannot see that it discriminates clearly between types of vehicles the way homologies do in biology. We cannot say of any sort of engine: you will find it in vehicles of type X (or in the vehicles produced by company Y) and in no others.

Instead we seem to have a convergence (by many manufacturers, and for many types of vehicles) on the internal combustion engine, yet it is not a complete convergence, for the same purpose is also served--in very similar, even otherwise identical vehicles from the same company---by different engine types.

And the different sorts of vehicles and engines cross-cut each other in such a way that no tree can be constructed. At best one gets a grid showing how many different engines one can find in each type of vehicle.

My impression is that this sort of categorization does not permit distinguishing homologies from analogies. It is better explained entirely as analogy as one company (and one department within a company) borrows design ideas from others and mixes and matches them in various ways.
 
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gluadys said:
But it would seem such an endeavour in the auto-motive field would be fruitless.
In fact there is insufficient evidence to draw any conclusion--the purpose of my largely tongue-in-cheek example was to foster your imagination. Indeed, I am sure that no such technological evolutionary tree is forthcoming, because the origin of technology is known to be design. In this sense, it would be quite fruitless.

I will point out, however, that if an alien paleontologist were to visit earth in the distant future, it might not necessarily be apparent to him that motor vehicles do not reproduce.

gluadys said:
Vehicles from the same source may use very different engine types and vehicles from different sources may use the same engine types
gluadys said:
homology is successfully used to establish relationships
An alien paleontologist would not know a particular vehicle's source; he would simply construct a tree based on the structural similarities. What's to stop him from asserting his ability to successfully establish homological relationships?

In conclusion, I am sure I don't particularly disagree with anything you wrote, with the caveat that I have no trouble imagining an alien paleontologist constructing what amounts to a technological evolutionary tree.

Mallon said:
You're using an entirely different set of nomenclature
No, the difference is only slight. All I have done is illuminate the distinction between an observation and an explanation for that observation, and suggest that packing the two together is inappropriate if one is gathering said observations for the purpose of supporting the same explanation that is being packed into the definition of the observation. This is questing-begging.

This is especially relevant because observations concerning structural similarity are applicable outside the field of biology. In fact, this point is sufficient on its own to refute such rigid segregation. Scientific principles apply in many different fields. Principles of biological classification are no exception. This is a good thing.

Mallon said:
I am also hopelessly confused about your position on biological evolution.
Precisely. Why can't you see that "my position" hasn't the slightest relevance? An argument can be understood apart from its motivation.

Mallon said:
Perhaps it would benefit all of us to know just what it is you believe about these things and why you believe it, that way maybe some of us can understand you.
In my experience, pigeonholing the other party typically impedes rational discussion. Doesn't your behavior confirm this? Suffice it to say that I affirm scientific conclusions out of pragmatism, if not out of principle. But perhaps you're right. I think Richard Dawkins said it best: Those who reject evolution are either ignorant, stupid, insane, or wicked. In my experience, it is the combination of all four.
 
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gluadys

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I will point out, however, that if an alien paleontologist were to visit earth in the distant future, it might not necessarily be apparent to him that motor vehicles do not reproduce.

An alien paleontologist would not know a particular vehicle's source; he would simply construct a tree based on the structural similarities. What's to stop him from asserting his ability to successfully establish homological relationships?

Nothing could stop him from asserting anything. But could he really construct a tree? It is not as simple as it sounds.

So, never mind source. What branch does one put a jeep on? And which is the unique place of an SUV? If internal combustion engines/diesel engines/electric engines are the limbs to which we are attaching branches, do we not find many types of vehicles on all the branches?

And if we start from something other than the engine, do we not find samples of the same engine on many branches? As well as other features.

How does one get a homology/analogy distinction out of this? How does one get a tree-like classification out of it.

As far as I can see, the only thing one can get is a partially-filled Punnet square.

Niles Eldredge (who is also a cornet player and an expert in the history of this instrument) describes his own attempts to create a "phylogeny" of this instrument.

Cornets were invented in the 1820s and the basic configuration of modern cornets was esablished by the mid-1850s. For the past century and a half, a bewildering array of cornet designs has appeared--an exuberant variety that has defied all attempts at neat categorization. I tried for several years to produce a simple classification of cornets--one that resembles the classifications I have produced for trilobites and horseshoe crabs in my career as a paleontologist. And I persistently failed.​

From The Triumph of Evolution W.H. Freeman & Co. 2000, p. 145

I think our alien would not be able to draw an automotive tree. No single tree would provide a unique place for each structural similarity. And without a unique place for each structural similarity, there is no means of making a distinction between homology and analogy.

Most especially, there is no means of tracing a structural similarity across changes of function. In fact, I don't know if we can find a basic structure in manufactured things that has been modified to serve a different function. I don't rule it out, but I haven't seen an example proposed.
 
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The Barbarian

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But can you describe in more detail a homology that connects a Toyota pickup to a Toyota sedan?
Sure. If you take a look at the frame of both, you will find engine details that show they were modifications of each other. One serves to support a cargo bed, and the other serves to support a seat for passengers. The turn signal indicator in some models is just a turn signal indicator, and in later models has been refashioned into wiper controls and/or other lighting. OK, maybe a bit stretched, but then trying to map an evolutionary process onto a manufactured object is a bit much anyway.

I don't think being manufactured by the same company qualifies as being homologous. A homology is a distinct feature shared by two or more species. which may function in distinctly different ways e.g. the inner ear bones of a mammal which are homologous to parts of the lower jaw of reptiles.
The turn signal indicator might be the best of a bad set. Homologies are only poorly mappable onto artifacts. Another possible example would be the turboprop engine, and turbojets. The fans used to force air into the jet mutated into larger things that instead pushed air across the flight surfaces.

After all, ants, algae and mushrooms were all made by the same Designer but share practically no homology beyond eukaryotic cells.
True enough, although algae would definitely be the outgroup, as mushrooms and ants obtain structural integrity through chitin, while algae us other means.
 
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gluadys

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Out of curiosity why are we comparing a non-living, non-self reproducing, and non-information changing (yes, our DNA mutates and changes) inanimate object with the evolution of life?

To do so is moronic.

Not quite.

An objection was made to defining homology biologically. So we are exploring whether it is possible to speak of homologies non-biologically.

I'm skeptical.
 
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gluadys

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Sure. If you take a look at the frame of both, you will find engine details that show they were modifications of each other. One serves to support a cargo bed, and the other serves to support a seat for passengers. The turn signal indicator in some models is just a turn signal indicator, and in later models has been refashioned into wiper controls and/or other lighting. OK, maybe a bit stretched, but then trying to map an evolutionary process onto a manufactured object is a bit much anyway.

The turn signal indicator might be the best of a bad set. Homologies are only poorly mappable onto artifacts. Another possible example would be the turboprop engine, and turbojets. The fans used to force air into the jet mutated into larger things that instead pushed air across the flight surfaces.

I can see that you are focusing on the development of a feature. What would really be great is if one could show that not only did it adapt function or add function--it actually changed function. However, is this enough to discriminate between the "homology" of the two Toyotas and the Toyota/Ford "analogy"? After all, Ford as well as Toyota (and other companies besides) are using the turn signal/windshield wiper combo. If this is a homology doesn't it apply across companies rather than stopping at the boundary of the manufacturer? Same for many of the other developments.

True enough, although algae would definitely be the outgroup, as mushrooms and ants obtain structural integrity through chitin, while algae us other means.

I guess one of the key questions in trying to apply the concept of homology to artifacts is whether you can even establish an outgroup.
 
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The Barbarian

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The problem in identifying homologies in artifacts is that "horizontal gene transfer" is so easy. Someone finds a new application, and soon everyone else has it on their devices.

As I said, it's pushing the metaphor too far to try to get a nested hierarchy of automobiles.

That might not be true in the future, as genetic algorithms are increasingly used to solve engineering problems.
 
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LewisWildermuth

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That might not be true in the future, as genetic algorithms are increasingly used to solve engineering problems.

I would say the opposite would be true, one will have an even harder time telling the "lineage" of cars once genetic algorithm are used.

With a genetic algorithm, all work is done in a computer and the prototypes never see the light of day.

This is why genetic algorithms tend to make leaps in technology put out by companies that use it rather than small steps. Why settle for a small performance increase by putting out the small changes when you can just let the simulation run a few more days and increase performance ten fold.

This means that every time a plant retools the new product looks less and less like the one that was made previously. The change only slowing as we reach the limits of current materials or physics.
 
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There are no intermediates between the bicycle and the Segway!


embrio-unicycle-hl.jpg
 
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