Is a Sabbath Day 'moral' or 'ceremonial' ?

dragNdrop · Jan 25, 2009

I recently rejected the 1844 doctrine as unbiblical after a long process of examining the books of Daniel, Revelation and others. I also consulted SDA Historical Theologians who were supposed to turn me away from 'apostacy' but only contradicted themselves.

I now also convicted that E G White is a false prophet and that Adventism is a well arranged spiritual TRAP.

However I have always been adamant that we must still continue to keep the Sabbath. On my current yet unfinished research, I am coming across the bible evidence which seems to reveal that whilst the Sabbath is part of the ten commandments it's also ceremonial just like the other feasts.

This would mean that just like all the other feasts, the Sabbath was also
replaced by an Anti-Type. i.e Instead of Resting on a 7th Day we now must rest in Jesus.

What have you guys found on this subject ? My research is not done yet.

IS THE SABBATH 'MORAL' OR 'CEREMONIAL' ?

Joe67 · Jan 25, 2009

dragNdrop said:
IS THE SABBATH 'MORAL' OR 'CEREMONIAL' ?

The sabbath is both moral and ceremonial.

Just like the wine and the bread is ceremonial and moral.

Morality is determined by God as he communicates with your heart and mind.

Humanity cannot determine morality. Man makes rules of time and space, with corresponding benefits or losses.

Joe

Adventist Heretic · Jan 25, 2009

I am glad you are studying, I have just about completed my study and I have come to a the conclusion that, the way the question is framed is the problem. The sabbath is Spititual. it has moral aspects to it, but it is spititual.

Man-ofGod · Jan 25, 2009

dragNdrop said:
I recently rejected the 1844 doctrine as unbiblical after a long process of examining the books of Daniel, Revelation and others. I also consulted SDA Historical Theologians who were supposed to turn me away from 'apostacy' but only contradicted themselves.

Obviously there are two types of ideas that prevail when it comes to Daniel/Revelation and prophecy. Those who use history to explain prophecy, and those who believe everything still points to a future event. Which one are you? Also, if you can share how you arrived to your conclusion that the 1844 doctrine is unbiblical? Thanks.

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2009

dragNdrop said:
I recently rejected the 1844 doctrine as unbiblical after a long process of examining the books of Daniel, Revelation and others.

You might want to rethink that.

I also consulted SDA Historical Theologians who were supposed to turn me away from 'apostacy' but only contradicted themselves.

I now also convicted that E G White is a false prophet and that Adventism is a well arranged spiritual TRAP.

Wake me up when this part is over.

However I have always been adamant that we must still continue to keep the Sabbath.

So not going to evolutionism too??

Are you sure?

On my current yet unfinished research, I am coming across the bible evidence which seems to reveal that whilst the Sabbath is part of the ten commandments it's also ceremonial just like the other feasts.

Sadly - there are a few "other" inconvenient details still escaping your notice?

Gen 2:3 God makes the Sabbath Holy as His act on the 7th day of Creation week.

Ex 20:11 God argues that the Holy nature of HIS HOLY DAY is confirmed in that ONE Gen 2:3 act ALONE.

Mark 2:27 Christ argues for THE MAKING of the Sabbath in Gen 2:3 and refers to BOTH the MAKING of MANKIND and the MAKING of The Sabbath in that Genesis Creation account "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath"

And then of course we have the glaringly obvious "From Sabbath to Sabbath.. shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" in the New Earth.

IS THE SABBATH 'MORAL' OR 'CEREMONIAL' ?

As D. L Moody argues and as Jamieson Fausset and Brown argue -- it is moral law.

Obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

Byfaithalone1 · Jan 26, 2009

dragNdrop said:
I recently rejected the 1844 doctrine as unbiblical after a long process of examining the books of Daniel, Revelation and others. I also consulted SDA Historical Theologians who were supposed to turn me away from 'apostacy' but only contradicted themselves. I now also convicted that E G White is a false prophet and that Adventism is a well arranged spiritual TRAP.

I'm sure that BobRyan will be displeased with all of your conclusions. As for me, I suspect that you and I traveled a similar path.

However I have always been adamant that we must still continue to keep the Sabbath. On my current yet unfinished research, I am coming across the bible evidence which seems to reveal that whilst the Sabbath is part of the ten commandments it's also ceremonial just like the other feasts.

As you continue to study, I encourage you to consider the context in which the sabbath is discussed. At the heart of SDA theology, we find the human assumption that the sabbath is separate from other God-given laws. A careful review of the Old Testament reveals that this is not actually true.

In Exodus 34, the sabbath is grouped together with the feast of unleavened bread, the passover, the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering. It would seem that God made no mistake in Exodus 34, for He consistently groups the sabbaths together with practices that even SDAs believe have been fulfilled. These practices include new moons, holy convocations and festivals, burnt offerings, grain offerings, shewbread, the 7-year rest and frankincense:

1. Shewbread and setting out bread

"Some of their relatives of the sons of the Kohathites were over the showbread to prepare it every sabbath." 1 Chronicles 9:32

"This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant." Leviticus 24:8

2. Frankincense

"You shall put pure frankincense on each row that it may be a memorial portion for the bread, even an offering by fire to the LORD. Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel." Lev. 24:7-8

3. New moons

"He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well." 2 Kings 4:23

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon. And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66:23

"Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon." Ezekiel 46:1

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

3. The 7th year rest

"You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Ex. 23:10-11

"During the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard." Lev. 25:4

4. Offerings (Burnt & Grain)

"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly." Isaiah 1:13

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

5. Other sabbaths such as Religious festivals or holy convocations

"'Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:3

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD. 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. For seven days present an offering made to the LORD by fire. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.' The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect, together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil—an offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine. You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live . . . " Leviticus 23

"You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD." Lev. 26:2

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

"Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them." Ezekiel 20:12

"In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths." Ezekiel 44:24

"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies." Hosea 2:11

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col. 2:16-17

IS THE SABBATH 'MORAL' OR 'CEREMONIAL' ?

Are D. L Moody, Jamieson Fausset or Brown authoritative (see BobRyan's post)? What does the Bible say?

Where does the Bible subdivide the laws given to Israelites? Can we confirm that such divisions of law are actually Biblical? Or is it possible that the law was given as one intact unit?

Consider Matthew 5. How many jots and tittles of the law can pass if all has not yet been accomplished?

BFA

SoldierOfTheKing · Jan 26, 2009

dragNdrop said:
On my current yet unfinished research, I am coming across the bible evidence which seems to reveal that whilst the Sabbath is part of the ten commandments it's also ceremonial just like the other feasts.

Are the terms "moral law" and "ceremonial law" found in the Bible?

Have you considered the possibility that the feasts may not be merely "ceremonial"?

dragNdrop said:
IS THE SABBATH 'MORAL' OR 'CEREMONIAL' ?

I think there is a moral principle behind the Sabbath, that your relationship with God, like your relationships with other people, requires an investment of time in order to be fruitful.

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2009

Byfaithalone1 said:
Are D. L Moody, Jamieson Fausset or Brown authoritative (see BobRyan's post)? What does the Bible say?

BFA

Now see? I thought you would get around to that "what does the Bible say" point sooner or later.

Here it is -

Gen 2:3 God makes the Sabbath Holy as His act on the 7th day of Creation week.

Ex 20:11 God argues that the Holy nature of HIS HOLY DAY is confirmed in that ONE Gen 2:3 act ALONE.

Mark 2:27 Christ argues for THE MAKING of the Sabbath in Gen 2:3 and refers to BOTH the MAKING of MANKIND and the MAKING of The Sabbath in that Genesis Creation account "The Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and not MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath"

And then of course we have the glaringly obvious "From Sabbath to Sabbath.. shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" in the New Earth. Isaiah 66.

BFA
Where does the Bible subdivide the laws given to Israelites? Can we confirm that such divisions of law are actually Biblical? Or is it possible that the law was given as one intact unit?

1Cor 7:19 "Neither is circumcision nor uncircumcision anything - but what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

BFA
Consider Matthew 5. How many jots and tittles of the law can pass if all has not yet been accomplished?

Hmm so "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 "dead"??

Hmm so "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 -- "dead"??

I think Paul had the correct view "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith??? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

So as it turns out -- the Law of God is "Established" instead of "deleted"

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jan 26, 2009

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Are the terms "moral law" and "ceremonial law" found in the Bible?

1Cor 7:19 "Neither is circumcision nor uncircumcision anything - but what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

in Christ,

Bob

moicherie · Jan 28, 2009

Is a Sabbath moral and ceremonial? There many sabbaths day - the word means rest and the COI had many rest days, probably our version of bank holidays etc. But if you refer to the Sabbath as per Exodus 20 well are the other nine commandments moral or ceremonial?

Byfaithalone1 · Jan 30, 2009

BOBRYAN: 1Cor 7:19 "Neither is circumcision nor uncircumcision anything - but what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

Bob,

If--per your premise--circumcision is "cermonial" and commandments are "moral," what do we do with this passage:

21Jesus answered them, "I did one deed, and you all marvel. 22"For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23"If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath? 24"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." John 7

If priority is given to circumcision over the sabbath (per John 7), and if circumcision is merely a "ceremonial law" (per your claim), does that make the sabbath even lower than a "ceremonial law?"

BTW--John 7:24 seems like great advise to me!!

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Jan 30, 2009

BobRyan,

You responded to one line from my previous post, but you seemed to ignored the meat of it. Care to respond to the following:

As you continue to study, I encourage you to consider the context in which the sabbath is discussed. At the heart of SDA theology, we find the human assumption that the sabbath is separate from other God-given laws. A careful review of the Old Testament reveals that this is not actually true.

In Exodus 34, the sabbath is grouped together with the feast of unleavened bread, the passover, the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering. It would seem that God made no mistake in Exodus 34, for He consistently groups the sabbaths together with practices that even SDAs believe have been fulfilled. These practices include new moons, holy convocations and festivals, burnt offerings, grain offerings, shewbread, the 7-year rest and frankincense:

1. Shewbread and setting out bread

"Some of their relatives of the sons of the Kohathites were over the showbread to prepare it every sabbath." 1 Chronicles 9:32

"This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant." Leviticus 24:8

2. Frankincense

"You shall put pure frankincense on each row that it may be a memorial portion for the bread, even an offering by fire to the LORD. Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel." Lev. 24:7-8

3. New moons

"He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well." 2 Kings 4:23

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon. And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66:23

"Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon." Ezekiel 46:1

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

3. The 7th year rest

"You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Ex. 23:10-11

"During the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard." Lev. 25:4

4. Offerings (Burnt & Grain)

"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly." Isaiah 1:13

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

5. Other sabbaths such as Religious festivals or holy convocations

"'Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:3

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD. 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. For seven days present an offering made to the LORD by fire. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.' The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect, together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oilan offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasing aromaand its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine. You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live . . . " Leviticus 23

"You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD." Lev. 26:2

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

"Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them." Ezekiel 20:12

"In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths." Ezekiel 44:24

"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies." Hosea 2:11

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col. 2:16-17

BFA

djconklin · Jan 31, 2009

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col. 2:16-17

Ouch! Very bad mistranslation to be using.

1) There's no "what" in the Greek.
2) The eating _and_ (not "or") drinking are active nouns--so, it should be "eating and drinking." You know that Paul wasn't talking about what you drink because there are no drink laws.
3) The Greek word "heorte" means "feast," not "religious festival."
4) If you look at what is called a feast in the OT you find that two ceremonial sabbaths--the Day of Atonement and the blowing of trumpets are never called feasts. So, the only shorthand way of including them in a listing of the ceremonial days would be to say "feasts, new moons, and sabbaths."
5) The shadows _are_ of things to come--not "were."
6) The last clause is completely wrong: should be "but the body of Christ." This is the positive counterpart to "let no man judge."

For more details see the study at http://www.666man.net//Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

djconklin · Jan 31, 2009

In Exodus 34, the sabbath is grouped together with the feast of unleavened bread, the passover, the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering.

Which verse?

I'll bet a hundred bucks the verse is talking about the ceremonial sabbath associated with the feast of unleavened bread and another hundred that God isn't talking about any Sabbath in the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering.

BobRyan · Jan 31, 2009

Byfaithalone1 said:
BobRyan,

You responded to one line from my previous post, but you seemed to ignored the meat of it. Care to respond to the following:

As you continue to study, I encourage you to consider the context in which the sabbath is discussed. At the heart of SDA theology, we find the human assumption that the sabbath is separate from other God-given laws.

1Cor 7:19 "Neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision anything but WHAT MATTERS is keeping the COMMANDMENTS of God"

Point remains.

And in Heb 7:12 we see that the "LAW" regarding the priesthood is "changed" for where there is change of Priesthood - there change of law (regarding priesthood).

So "again" - the point is made.

Ex 20 -- The Ten Commandments were written ON STONE - no other part of the Law of God was.

So "again" -- the point is made.

In Deut 5 God says that at SINAI "He spoke these TEN WORDS and ADDED NO MORE" -

So "again" the point is made.

Heb 9:4 - the only part of the LAW of God that was kept INSIDE the ARK - was the TEN Commandments. Deut 10:2

So yet "again" we see the distinction made and again my point is sustained.

The glaringly obvious point of distinction for the Commandments of God - is beyond dispute.

All the counter arguments against this irrefutable argument are of the form "yes but the Ten commandments are IN the Bible" -- which is hardly a substantive way to argue "there is no difference" given the inconvenient details noted above that DO SHOW the distinction God made.

In Exodus 34, the sabbath is grouped together with the feast of unleavened bread,

As I was saying - "The Ten Commandents are In the Bible" and "The Sabbath is among the Holy Days mentioned in the Bible" is not as compelling an argument as some may have imagined for trying to abolish Christ's own Creation Memorial on the basis that animal sacrifices are abolished.

BFA

3. New moons

"He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well." 2 Kings 4:23

Surely we all are satisified to note that even OT peoples "noticed" that the Sabbath was one of the Holy Days mentioned in the Bible.

BFA

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon. And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66:23

Indeed - a huge problem for those who like to complain in their imagination that the Sabbath of the OT was NOT intended all mankind.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Jan 31, 2009

BOBRYAN: 1Cor 7:19 "Neither is circumcision nor uncircumcision anything - but what matters is keeping the commandments of God"

Byfaithalone1 said:
Bob,

If--per your premise--circumcision is "cermonial" and commandments are "moral," what do we do with this passage:

21Jesus answered them, "I did one deed, and you all marvel. 22"For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man. 23"If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath so that the Law of Moses will not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made an entire man well on the Sabbath? 24"Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." John 7

If priority is given to circumcision over the sabbath (per John 7), and if circumcision is merely a "ceremonial law" (per your claim), does that make the sabbath even lower than a "ceremonial law?"

BTW--John 7:24 seems like great advise to me!!

BFA

John 7 describes a point in time PRE-CROSS in which BOTH the Ceremonial AND the Moral laws are in full force ( As all agree).

The argument of Christ is not "You can abolish my Holy Day whenver Jews stop being circumcised" as much as there might be some imaginative speculation for that being the context of John 7.

The Law of Moses - is in fact "Scripture" the WORD of God - and is seen in the first 5 books "of scripture". Christ argues in John 7 that Sabbath is NOT being broken by that act of compliance with the Law on the Sabbath.

I find it hard to believe that you would think to bend this affirmation of the Law of God - as an excuse to break it.

in Christ,

Bob

Byfaithalone1 · Feb 3, 2009

BOBRYAN: John 7 describes a point in time PRE-CROSS in which BOTH the Ceremonial AND the Moral laws are in full force (as all agree).

And, at that time, was priority given to circumcision (i.e. a law you deem to be “ceremonial&#8221

or to the sabbath (i.e. a law you deem to be “moral&#8221

?

The argument of Christ is not "You can abolish my Holy Day whenver Jews stop being circumcised" as much as there might be some imaginative speculation for that being the context of John 7.

He certainly notes that priority had been placed on circumcision over the sabbath.

I find it hard to believe that you would think to bend this affirmation of the Law of God - as an excuse to break it.

Who needs an excuse to break it. Have you missed the reality of the human condition?

Point remains.

Since the sabbath command was viewed with lesser importance than the circumcision command, are you arguing (per your continued use of 1 Corinthians 7:19) that the sabbath is even less than a ceremonial law?

And in Heb 7:12 we see that the "LAW" regarding the priesthood is "changed" for where there is change of Priesthood - there change of law (regarding priesthood).

Cool! Now, since we know that jots and tittles of the law have been changed (per your admission set out above), we also know that—per Matthew 5—everything has been accomplished. Thanks for confirming this important point. Point made.

Ex 20 -- The Ten Commandments were written ON STONE - no other part of the Law of God was.

Great! And, per 2 Corinthians 3, the letters engraved in stones bring death and fade when compared with the glory of the ministry that lasts—the ministry of the Spirit. You are making some great points. Thanks!

In Deut 5 God says that at SINAI "He spoke these TEN WORDS and ADDED NO MORE" –

In Deuteronomy 5, God also says that the law was given to the people who were then alive and not with their forefathers. This negates any possibility of an “eternal law.” Thanks for making this important point.

Heb 9:4 - the only part of the LAW of God that was kept INSIDE the ARK - was the TEN Commandments. Deut 10:2

How interesting to note that the ten commandments were also set out in “the book of the law” that was set beside the ark, the same “book of the law” that your denomination views as “ceremonial.” A very important point, indeed.

As I was saying - "The Ten Commandents are In the Bible" and "The Sabbath is among the Holy Days mentioned in the Bible" is not as compelling an argument as some may have imagined for trying to abolish Christ's own Creation Memorial on the basis that animal sacrifices are abolished.

The point is not that they are all in the Bible. The point is that they are all lumped together in a number of different ways. A relationship between these laws is consistently established. SDAs claim that there is a distinction between them, while Scripture continually confirms that they are all part of one unit. This one unit was not to be altered in any way until all had been accomplished. SDAism asserts that all has not been accomplished while simultanouesly arguing that the law has been changed. These are weighty matters that have not yet been addressed by your or your denomination.

Surely we all are satisified to note that even OT peoples "noticed" that the Sabbath was one of the Holy Days mentioned in the Bible.

Yes. It was a holy convocation given by God as were all other sabbaths. It is as “ceremonial” as any other convocation (to use your word, a word not even contained in Scripture).

Indeed - a huge problem for those who like to complain in their imagination that the Sabbath of the OT was NOT intended all mankind.

Can you articulate the manner in which SDAism observes new moons?

BFA

SoldierOfTheKing · Feb 3, 2009

Can you articulate the manner in which SDAism observes new moons?

God never commanded the observance of new moons.

Byfaithalone1 · Feb 4, 2009

SoldierOfTheKing said:
God never commanded the observance of new moons.

If Isaiah 66 is to be used as confirmation that man has for eternity observed the seventh-day sabbath, then it must also be confirmation that man has for eternity observed new moons. I'm curious as to the manner in which SDAs observe them.

BFA

djconklin · Feb 7, 2009

If Isaiah 66 is to be used as confirmation that man has for eternity observed the seventh-day sabbath, then it must also be confirmation that man has for eternity observed new moons.

Non sequitur, also the passage does not say that man "has for eternity observed the seventh-day" Sabbath.

Is a Sabbath Day 'moral' or 'ceremonial' ?

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