Miracles of Medjugorje

WarriorAngel · Jan 19, 2009

The word semeion means "sign", an appeal to intelligence, and expresses the purpose or final cause of the miracle. A miracle is a factor in the Providence of God over men. Hence the glory of God and the good of men are the primary or supreme ends of every miracle.

This is clearly expressed by Christ in the raising of Lazarus (John 11), and the Evangelist says that Jesus, in working His first miracle at Cana, "manifested his glory" (John 2:11). Therefore the miracle must be worthy the holiness, goodness, and justice of God, and conducive to the truegood of men. Hence they are not performed by God to repair physical defects in His creation, nor are they intended to produce, nor do they produce, disorder or discord; do they contain any element which is wicked, ridiculous, useless, or unmeaning.

Hence they are not on the same plane with mere wonders, tricks works of ingenuity, or magic. The efficacy, usefulness, purpose of the work and the manner of performing it clearly show that it must be ascribed to Divine power. This high standing and dignity of the miracle is shown, e.g., in the miracles of Moses (Exodus 7-10), of Elias (1 Kings 18:21-38), of Eliseus (2 Kings 5). The multitudes glorified God at the cure of the paralytic (Matthew 9:8), of the blind man (Luke 18:43), at the miracles of Christ in general (Matthew 15:31, Luke 19:37), as at the cure of the lame man by St. Peter (Acts 4:21). Hence miracles are signs of the supernatural world and our connection with it.

In miracles we can always distinguish secondary ends, subordinate, however, to the primary ends. Thus

they are evidences attesting and confirming the truth of a Divine mission, or of a doctrine of faith or morals, e.g., Moses (Exodus 4), Elias (1 Kings 17:24). For this reason the Jews see in Christ "the prophet" (John 6:14), in whom "God hath visited his people" (Luke 7:16). Hence the disciples believed in Him (John 2:11) and Nicodemus (John 3:2) and the man born blind (John 9:38), and the many who had seen the raising of Lazarus (John 11:45). Jesus constantly appealed to His "works" to prove that He was sent by God and that He is the Son of God, e.g., to the Disciples of John (Matthew 11:4), to the Jews (John 10:37). He claims that His miracles are a greater testimony than the testimony of John (John 5:36), condemns those who will not believe (John 15:24), as He praises those who do (John 17:8), and exhibits miracles as the signs of the True Faith (Mark 16:17). The Apostles appeal to miracles as the confirmation of Christ's Divinity and mission (John 20:31; Acts 10:38), and St. Paul counts them as the signs of his Apostleship (2 Corinthians 12:12).
Miracles are wrought to attest true sanctity. Thus, e.g., God defends Moses (Numbers 12), Elias (2 Kings 1), Eliseus (2 Kings 13). Hence the testimony of the man born blind (John 9:30 sqq.) and the official processes in the canonization of saints.
As benefits either spiritual or temporal. The temporal favours are always subordinate to spiritual ends, for they are a reward or a pledge of virtue, e.g. the widow of Sarephta (1 Kings 17), the Three Children in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3), the preservation of Daniel (Daniel 5), the deliverance of St. Peter from prison (Acts 12), of St. Paul from shipwreck (Acts 27). Thus semeion, i.e., "sign", completes the meaning of dynamis, i.e., "[Divine] power". It reveals the miracle as an act of God's supernatural Providence over men. It gives a positive content to teras, i.e., "wonder", for, whereas the wonder shows the miracle as a deviation from the ordinary course of nature, the sign gives the purpose of the deviation.

This analysis shows that

the miracle is essentially an appeal to knowledge. Therefore miracles can be distinguished from purely natural occurrences. A miracle is a fact in material creation, and falls under the observation of the senses or comes to us through testimony, like any natural fact.

AS IT SAYS - if God is glorified - then it cannot be from evil.
IF the 'miracles' are wicked, useless, ridiculous or unmeaning - then it is not from God.
If it repairs a physical defect IT IS FROM GOD.

THIS is from the Church...

Please read it!!

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm

KNOWING all of this - I feel the Church is studying each and every miracle brought forth to them.
Since this will be thoroughly investigated.

Knowing what the Church describes as a genuine Divine miracle - i can have no doubt this is FROM GOD.

Those who have ears - let them hear.
Those who have eyes - let them see.

WarriorAngel · Jan 19, 2009

Reminder; the Catholic Encyclopedia has the imprimatur.

JoabAnias · Jan 19, 2009

WA, these are the two medical study results I am trying to find if you want to look before I get a chance to find them. They are being elusive

R. Laurentin and H. Joyeux, Scientific and Medical Studies on the Apparitions at Medjugorje, Robert Faricy, S.J., A Medjugorje Retreat; Fr. Michael O’Carroll, Medjugorje: Facts, Documents, Theology: Is Medjugorje Approved?; M. Miravalle, Introduction to Medjugorje, Ch. 1.)

James Paul Pandarakalam, "Are the Apparitions of Medjugorje Real?" Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 15, No. 2, pp. 229-239, 2001. Cf. Laurentin and Joyeux, Scientific and Medical Studies on the Apparitions at Medjugorje.

The specifics of the studies are remarkable.

thereselittleflower · Jan 20, 2009

WarriorAngel said:
NO ~ The Church cannot be the only one to confirm a miracle occurred...
IT has to come from a doctor first...[which it has]..and then accepted by the Church.

Actually, that is only part of what goes into determining it is a miracle. Since "miracles" can have demonic origin rather than be from God, it is not enough for a doctor to say there was a miracle.

It is only the CHURCH and the CHURCH ALONE that determines if there has actually been a miracle.

Perhaps the doctor is in colusion with the patientn or others and the claim is fraudulent.

Perhaps the doctor is to quick to claim it is a miracle without full investigation into the facts or other natural causes.

Perhaps it is demonic. And the doctor is not at all qualified on that point.

The doctor only gives a MEDICAL OPINION, nothing more.

There is no authentication of a miracle without the CHURCH, and in the case of Medjugorje, the CHURCH HAS NOT AUTHENTICATED ONE of the so called miracles.

So it is not proper to claim a miracle if the Church has not claimed it, and so this thread is disengenuous, for it leads people to believe there are actual documented miracles which cannot be until the Church does so.

The CHURCH has not done so, and so before people who are easily swayed by claims of miracles without the attending cautions being given, I am simply stating what all need to be congnizant of.

Instead of gullibly believing there are miracles associated with any apparition, we are to put such claims in the hand of the Church and not make defacto claims of miracles without the Church's sanciton.

Otherwise, we would be doing what the Church warns us about - running after the supernatural which takes away from our faith and can injure us on that point alone.

So why run after alledged miracles the Church hasn't authenticated or claimed?

In fact, the Church has claimed there have been no miracles from Medjugorje. . . I will find the actual statement if you want me to . . . .

BTW TLF - this THREAD is about the actual miracles.
In which the Church is NOW studying. Are you sharing any stories??

This thread is about miracles at Medjugorje, as if they are legit and authentic.

Someone needs to give a balance view point on that point since it wasn't part of the OP and the OP leads people to believe they are real and have been authenticated.

Where is the warning that they may not be authentic since the Church hasn't authenticated them?

And the priests AND crowds who affirm children seeing Mary.

Are they lying too?
An 18 mo old and a 3 year old?

An 18 month old can barely communicate. A child that old pointed at me in Mass and said "Mary!" "Mary!"

A 3 year old is not much better.

This isn't proof WA . . . even if they saw something, do you think they are immune from demons coming as angels of light?

Where is the scepticism the Church teaches us we are to have?

Such children can't even be properly examined. This is bogus as evidence.

You said yourself - even if the Church did accept this - you wouldn't.

Please don't falsely represent me. This thread is not about me anyway. . . .

Where did I say that WA? Why put words in my mouth and make me say something I never said?

What I have said it is obvious to any reasonable person who is willing to look objectively at the facts of the events surrounding the apparitions as the Church has always direct, the events first; and first and foremost is obedience, will easily discern that these claims that Mary is appearing are false .

God does not ruin His sending of Mary by sending her to people who lie and disobey the Church.

But that is what these seers have done, and their spiritual advisors. If they believe any of what they claim, they have deluded themselves.

And those who run after miracles and these apparitons are placing themselves in great danger spiritually, for when we do so, satan opens a field of deceptions for us to play in . . that harms us spiritual for it keeps us from progressing along the path God has given us, instead being distracted by spiritual "candy" the devil offers to keep us where we are, or make us go backwards.

This is what all of this is - spiritual "candy" to entice.

So you really cannot be unbiased when it comes to these apparitions if they are considered genuine.

I beg to differ. I don't run after these things, so I can be much more objective than those who do, and have come to my conlcusions after honest objective research, for I would love nothing better than for Medjugorje to be true.

As I have said before, I have a rosary from Medjugorje, made for the rock of apparition hill . . . that was when I was hoping it was true.

But an honest investigation, after putting aside my hopes, revealed something very dark happening there. I am sorry that those who have chosen to jump ahead of the Church and declare for themselves that this is indeed Mary have thrown objectivity to the side and all caution to the wind .. . . . .that is exactly the state of mind satan loves when it comes to the supernatural . . no critical thinking, but instead a desire for something to be truly supernatural. This opens wide the door to deception.

Those who do this do so at their own peril.

Care to tell us how these miracles occurred if they are not from God?

I already have given how things can appear to be miracles. Did you read my post?

thereselittleflower · Jan 20, 2009

WarriorAngel said:
The word semeion means "sign", an appeal to intelligence, and expresses the purpose or final cause of the miracle. A miracle is a factor in the Providence of God over men. Hence the glory of God and the good of men are the primary or supreme ends of every miracle.

This is clearly expressed by Christ in the raising of Lazarus (John 11), and the Evangelist says that Jesus, in working His first miracle at Cana, "manifested his glory" (John 2:11). Therefore the miracle must be worthy the holiness, goodness, and justice of God, and conducive to the true good of men. Hence they are not performed by God to repair physical defects in His creation, nor are they intended to produce, nor do they produce, disorder or discord; do they contain any element which is wicked, ridiculous, useless, or unmeaning.

Hence they are not on the same plane with mere wonders, tricks works of ingenuity, or magic. The efficacy, usefulness, purpose of the work and the manner of performing it clearly show that it must be ascribed to Divine power. This high standing and dignity of the miracle is shown, e.g., in the miracles of Moses (Exodus 7-10), of Elias (1 Kings 18:21-38), of Eliseus (2 Kings 5). The multitudes glorified God at the cure of the paralytic (Matthew 9:8), of the blind man (Luke 18:43), at the miracles of Christ in general (Matthew 15:31, Luke 19:37), as at the cure of the lame man by St. Peter (Acts 4:21). Hence miracles are signs of the supernatural world and our connection with it.

In miracles we can always distinguish secondary ends, subordinate, however, to the primary ends. Thus

they are evidences attesting and confirming the truth of a Divine mission, or of a doctrine of faith or morals, e.g., Moses (Exodus 4), Elias (1 Kings 17:24). For this reason the Jews see in Christ "the prophet" (John 6:14), in whom "God hath visited his people" (Luke 7:16). Hence the disciples believed in Him (John 2:11) and Nicodemus (John 3:2) and the man born blind (John 9:38), and the many who had seen the raising of Lazarus (John 11:45). Jesus constantly appealed to His "works" to prove that He was sent by God and that He is the Son of God, e.g., to the Disciples of John (Matthew 11:4), to the Jews (John 10:37). He claims that His miracles are a greater testimony than the testimony of John (John 5:36), condemns those who will not believe (John 15:24), as He praises those who do (John 17:8), and exhibits miracles as the signs of the True Faith (Mark 16:17). The Apostles appeal to miracles as the confirmation of Christ's Divinity and mission (John 20:31; Acts 10:38), and St. Paul counts them as the signs of his Apostleship (2 Corinthians 12:12).

Miracles are wrought to attest true sanctity. Thus, e.g., God defends Moses (Numbers 12), Elias (2 Kings 1), Eliseus (2 Kings 13). Hence the testimony of the man born blind (John 9:30 sqq.) and the official processes in the canonization of saints.

As benefits either spiritual or temporal. The temporal favours are always subordinate to spiritual ends, for they are a reward or a pledge of virtue, e.g. the widow of Sarephta (1 Kings 17), the Three Children in the fiery furnace (Daniel 3), the preservation of Daniel (Daniel 5), the deliverance of St. Peter from prison (Acts 12), of St. Paul from shipwreck (Acts 27). Thus semeion, i.e., "sign", completes the meaning of dynamis, i.e., "[Divine] power". It reveals the miracle as an act of God's supernatural Providence over men. It gives a positive content to teras, i.e., "wonder", for, whereas the wonder shows the miracle as a deviation from the ordinary course of nature, the sign gives the purpose of the deviation.

This analysis shows that

the miracle is essentially an appeal to knowledge. Therefore miracles can be distinguished from purely natural occurrences. A miracle is a fact in material creation, and falls under the observation of the senses or comes to us through testimony, like any natural fact.

AS IT SAYS - if God is glorified - then it cannot be from evil.

No, it doesn't.

Remember, there was a demon possessed woman following Paul saying that he had the way of salvation to God . . .that brought glory to God . . but it came from a demon.

So explain that one WA. . . .I am waiting. . .

IF the 'miracles' are wicked, useless, ridiculous or unmeaning - then it is not from God.
If it repairs a physical defect IT IS FROM GOD.

WA, no one is saying miracles have not happened, but that the Church has not authenticated them, and it is up to the Church to athenticate not us as laity. We don't know if authentic miracles have happened yet or not, but that is really irrelevant to the question about Medjugorje for this reason:

Even if there is one real miracle, it does not follow it is because of Medjugorje, as the grace comes from the Church and Her Sacraments, not apparitions.

It would authenticate the faith of the recipient. It does not follow it authenticates Medjugorje, and this isn't this the purpose of this thread, to lead others to believe Medjugorje is authentic?

THIS is from the Church...

Please read it!!

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm

I don't believe you are properly understanding what is in this article.

KNOWING all of this - I feel the Church is studying each and every miracle brought forth to them.

Come now, that would be a rediculous expectation, for the Church doesn't have the resources to do such a thing.

Since this will be thoroughly investigated.

mmm . . no . . those who run after the superntural may start with signs and wonders, but the Church doesn't start with signs and wonders, it starts with the very ordinary and mundane . . . OBEDIENCE TO CHURCH AUTHORITY.

This is the first test. . If they fail this test, then absolutely nothing supernatural is happening. That means Mary is not appearing.

The seers fail this test miserably and have been failing it for, how many years has this been going on? THE ENTIRE TIME they have been disobedient to the commands of their local Bishop.

This repetative disobedience is absolute proof that NOTHING supernatural is happening.

So, since this is the case, what can be about any authentic miracles people think are due to Medjugorje?

They aren't due to Medjugorje, but to faith.

Knowing what the Church describes as a genuine Divine miracle - i can have no doubt this is FROM GOD.

The Church evidently uses different criteria than is being applied here . . .

Those who have ears - let them hear.
Those who have eyes - let them see.

Yes, and may they hear that for their spiritual safety and welfare, that they must not run after the supernatural, not desire for something to be supernatural, not to be gullible and step ahead of the Church in belief about any supernatural claim, for there in lies danger to their soul.

thereselittleflower · Jan 20, 2009

WarriorAngel said:
If I remember correctly, St Bernadette was required to stop going to Lourdes...but she didnt.

The Church AKA 'Pope' has not given any judgement whatsoever.

You continue to say things that are simply not true.

Actually WA, what I have said is the truth, let those who have ears to hear, hear. . . .

This is a popular claim among Medjugorje supporters, but what they don't say is that she did not wilfully disobey, and when corrected by her Bishop, immediatly obeyed.

When we contrast this with the seers of Medjugorje, we see that instead of accepting correction, they continued to persistantly disobey the Bishops.

There is absolutely no comparison that can be made here except to show how Bernadette's behavior was exemplary, and that of the seers of Medjguorje deplorable.

Night and day WA.

Also, Bernadette did not lie, yet these seers have continued to lie about the apparition, beginning with how they started, claiming one of the girls was looking for a lost sheep, when the truth, admitted to under oath, was that they went out to smoke cigarrettes BEHIND their parents' back.

Night and day WA.

These are the things the Church gives great weight to.

namericanboy · Jan 20, 2009

Do you think with the conversions that they truly turn to Christ as opposed to those just seeking signs and wonders..There are plenty of false ones I would think..

WarriorAngel · Jan 20, 2009

http://www.medjugorje.ws/en/apparitions/docs-scientific-research-medjugorje-visionaries/

The assembly of seventeen renowned natural scientists, doctors, psychiatrists and theologians in their research came to a 12 point conclusion on January 14, 1986 in Paina near Milan.

On the basis of the psychological tests, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible with certainty to exclude fraud and deception.
On the basis of the medical examinations, tests and clinical observations etc, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude pathological hallucinations.
On the basis of the results of previous researches for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude a purely natural interpretation of these manifestations.
On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, for all and each of the visionaries it is possible to exclude that these manifestations are of the preternatural order i.e. under demonic influence.
On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, there is a correspondence between these manifestations and those that are usually described in mystical theology.
On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, it is possible to speak of spiritual advances and advances in the theological and moral virtues of the visionaries, from the beginning of these manifestations until today.
On the basis of information and observations that can be documented, it is possible to exclude teaching or behavior of the visionaries that would be in clear contradiction to Christian faith and morals.
On the basis of information or observations that can be documented, it is possible to speak of good spiritual fruits in people drawn into the supernatural activity of these manifestations and in people favorable to them.
After more than four years, the tendencies and different movements that have been generated through Medjugorje, in consequence of these manifestations, influence the people of God in the Church in complete harmony with Christian doctrine and morals.
After more than four years, it is possible to speak of permanent and objective spiritual fruits of movements generated through Medjugorje.
It is possible to affirm that all good and spiritual undertakings of the Church, which are in complete harmony with the authentic magisterium of the Church, find support in the events in Medjugorje.
Accordingly, one can conclude that after a deeper examination of the protagonists, facts, and their effects, not only in the local framework, but also in regard to the responsive chords of the Church in general, it is well for the Church to recognize the supernatural origin and, thereby, the purpose of the events in Medjugorje.

THE test shows - that these visionaries are NOT FRAUDS and that the ARE MORAL recipients.

Their character is not flawed by the DETRACTIONS of those who report as much.

The messages are found to be in line with the magesterium.

WITH all of this information - being sent to Vatican - with all the miracles reported the world over - with all the conversions of peeps becoming orthodox Catholics - with the return of peeps as well as priests studying who are orthodox -

THESES events will MOST likely be given the by the Catholic Church eventually.

THAT IS - if we have time. :holy:

isabella1 · Jan 20, 2009

A few days ago I read on another thread at least four times that we are to discern and then wait for the Churches ruling. That it is actually a responsibility for us to discern the truth in all this.

Now I am reading the opposite, that it is up to the Church to decide first.

So that is quite a contradiction and confusing. Which is it them? i saw other contradictions too, but I will just leave them alone.

namericanboy · Jan 20, 2009

isabella1 said:
A few days ago I read on another thread at least four times that we are to discern and then wait for the Churches ruling. That it is actually a responsibility for us to discern the truth in all this.

Now I am reading the opposite, that it is up to the Church to decide first.

So that is quite a contradiction and confusing. Which is it them? i saw other contradictions too, but I will just leave them alone.

Each believer is responsible to to be discerning for their self, plus corporately the gift is availble to protect the body. So I see both at play..
It's part of our individual maturity..

WarriorAngel · Jan 20, 2009

namericanboy said:
Each believer is responsible to to be discerning for their self, plus corporately the gift is availble to protect the body. So I see both at play..
It's part of our individual maturity..

EVERY SINGLE thing i have read about private revelations is that as long as the messages are moral and do not contradict the Church's magisterium - then the individual may believe in the private revelation until the Church says otherwise.

IT would be absolutely absurd to try to do it the other way.

Many mystical Saints have had revelations - and thus it brought them to Sainthood. Including the apparitions of Fatima and Lourdes. [AND yes they did test the Spirits in each account]

So long as the Saint's revelations didnt contradict the Church - they could believe in the messages. This is also very true of
Sr Faustina [who is a Saint now.]
St Joan of Arc.
St Catherine Emmerich
St Clair [who's heart when opened after death had a wooden crucifix in it] They cut it open because she spoke of the Lord placing His cross in her heart and she suffered.
etc etc etc

The Church takes a very long time [sometimes hundreds of years] to discern a case.
SO - in the meantime a Saint cannot very well likely dismiss the apparitions waiting for the Church - now can they?

St Pio had MANY detractors... MANY - even in the Church.

So long as they are moral - and pious - their fruits are obvious.

Thousands of Saints had revelations first - before the Church finally accepted them. :wave:

AND if God allows us many more years on earth - the Church could take that long to decide this case.
MEANTIME - a message from Heaven of this capacity and this magnitude of conversions and miracles cannot or should not be ignored while we sit and wait.

To those who allow this to change them and transform them - they will be rewarded with graces of a large proportion. At least I feel i was. God gave me more than i deserved. :bow:

[Thank you Lord... for i am a sinner.]

For those who want to wait - they have their equal share in waiting...

isabella1 · Jan 20, 2009

WA, I want to thank you for all you are posting. It is important that we take a look at what the Church is saying, doing, and has done on this topic. In this way people will have all the facts right from the Churches own testings, and we can read their documented findings. Thanks :hug:

WarriorAngel · Jan 20, 2009

Church's Official Position?
Question One: What is the official position of the Catholic Church regarding Medjugorje? Would it be an act of disobedience to pilgrimage to Medjugorje before the Church has given the apparitions a final and definitive approval?

On April 10, 1991, the Bishops' Conference of former Yugoslavia issued the "Declaration of the Ex-Yugoslavia Bishops' Conference on Medjugorje." The declaration neither approves nor condemns the apparitions, but does permit personal belief in the apparitions and personal pilgrimages to Medjugorje while the Church investigation continues.
The declaration makes clear that while at that particular point in the investigation "it cannot be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations,"
it continues to state that "the faithful journeying to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and other motives, require attention and pastoral care" (1).

http://www.medjugorje.org/ismedjugorjereal.htm

And a thanks to Joab for helping me find some of the info i can share. :wave:

Isa

WarriorAngel · Jan 20, 2009

Medjugorje Research Papers of
Dr James Paul Pandarakalam

By Author Dr. James Pandarakalam
Picture from right to left. Dr. James Paul Pandarakalam, Fra Slavko, Dr. Pandarakalma's wife Maria.

THIS PAPER FIRST APPEARED IN THE JOURNAL OF SCIENTIFIC EXPLORATION ,VOL15, NO2,ARTICLE.7,P.229-239,SUMMER,2001 UNDER THE TITLE, "ARE THE APPARITIONS OF MEDJUGORJE REAL?"

http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/abstracts/v15n2a7.html.

Dr. Pandarakalam visited Medjugorje USA and offered his research papers for publication on Medjugorje USA's."Therefore all information below is used with permission. Copying of these papers for distribution is not recommended.

ABSTRACT

This article presents the history of six young healthy adults experiencing an apparition on a daily basis over a prolonged period. The medical tests suggest that there is objective and subjective or non-objective visionary experience. There is partial and variable disconnection from the outside world at the time of apparitional experience and sensations travel in a normal manner to the brain of the Medjugorje seers, but the findings of evoked auditory potential tests and screening tests, show that the cerebral cortex does not perceive the transmission of the auditory and visual neuronal stimuli received from the immediate environment. Electro-oculographic recording confirms that their eyes are converging at the same point. There are both normal and altered physiological parameters. There is a cluster of synchronisms suggesting objectivity. Complementary psychological and parapsychological observations are presented. There is no evidence to suggest the probability of autohypnosis. The collective percipience, stronger motivation on the part of the apparition, quasiphysical features of the apparition, integration of the appearer to the natural environment, utmost loyalty and obedience of the percipients to the agent and controlled "psychokinetic like" manifestations point towards a true apparition at Medjugorje. The voice phenomenon observed at the time of the Medjugorje apparitional experience is reported in other sites of Marian apparition and not in any other religious or paranormal phenomenon.

http://www.medjugorjeusa.org/drpaul.htm

Please read for other scientific returns on these subjects:

MEDICAL OBSERVATIONS

DUAL MODES OF PERCEPTION

VOICE PHENOMENON

SYNCHRONISMS

NOT A CASE OF AUTOHYPNOSIS AND AUTO APPARITIONS

SUMMARY

REFERENCES

WarriorAngel · Jan 20, 2009

I just want to show evil isn't running this show...
AND with all events of this proportion - including entire lifetimes of Saints who heard or saw Jesus and Mary - Medjugorje reminds me of St Pio's Life on steroids.

IE - it wasnt just for one alone to receive messages - but for the world.

He spent his lifetime receiving apparitions - so what's the big deal with the peeps seeing her for only 20+ years?

isabella1 · Jan 20, 2009

Good point WA!

isabella1 · Jan 21, 2009

WarriorAngel said:
EVERY SINGLE thing i have read about private revelations is that as long as the messages are moral and do not contradict the Church's magisterium - then the individual may believe in the private revelation until the Church says otherwise.

IT would be absolutely absurd to try to do it the other way.

Many mystical Saints have had revelations - and thus it brought them to Sainthood. Including the apparitions of Fatima and Lourdes. [AND yes they did test the Spirits in each account]

So long as the Saint's revelations didnt contradict the Church - they could believe in the messages. This is also very true of
Sr Faustina [who is a Saint now.]
St Joan of Arc.
St Catherine Emmerich
St Clair [who's heart when opened after death had a wooden crucifix in it] They cut it open because she spoke of the Lord placing His cross in her heart and she suffered.
etc etc etc

The Church takes a very long time [sometimes hundreds of years] to discern a case.
SO - in the meantime a Saint cannot very well likely dismiss the apparitions waiting for the Church - now can they?

St Pio had MANY detractors... MANY - even in the Church.

So long as they are moral - and pious - their fruits are obvious.

Thousands of Saints had revelations first - before the Church finally accepted them.

AND if God allows us many more years on earth - the Church could take that long to decide this case.
MEANTIME - a message from Heaven of this capacity and this magnitude of conversions and miracles cannot or should not be ignored while we sit and wait.

To those who allow this to change them and transform them - they will be rewarded with graces of a large proportion. At least I feel i was. God gave me more than i deserved. [Thank you Lord... for i am a sinner.]

For those who want to wait - they have their equal share in waiting...

Yes WA the fruits are obvious! I have my own personal experience when I was in Medugorje and it transformed my life.

I went there not even knowing anything about it, not really caring if I went or not, the whole trip was a God deal. And the story still amazes me on how I came to go with the trip completely paid for along with spending money, during a time of financial crisis in my life, as well as many other crisis that were going on in my life.

During my trip there was not just one miracle, but many, along with the graces that flowed from them. The fruits are still visible even today, and the graces continue to flow and only get richer and better, the longer I walk in submission to our Lord.

I personally know of people being healed and converting to the Catholic Church and coming home to the Church after their trip to Medugorje. I think one of the best confessions I had in my life was when I was there.

I could go on and on with lists of graces and miracles. All I can say is that I see the fruits, and I am positive that many Church officials see it too. And satan would never lead people to Christ, prayer, confession, the blessed sacrament, adoration, and to read scripture, to pray the rosary daily. He just simply would not do it.

WarriorAngel · Jan 21, 2009

isabella1 said:
Yes WA the fruits are obvious! I have my own personal experience when I was in Medugorje and it transformed my life.

I went there not even knowing anything about it, not really caring if I went or not, the whole trip was a God deal. And the story still amazes me on how I came to go with the trip completely paid for along with spending money, during a time of financial crisis in my life, as well as many other crisis that were going on in my life.

During my trip there was not just one miracle, but many, along with the graces that flowed from them. The fruits are still visible even today, and the graces continue to flow and only get richer and better, the longer I walk in submission to our Lord.

I personally know of people being healed and converting to the Catholic Church and coming home to the Church after their trip to Medugorje. I think one of the best confessions I had in my life was when I was there.

I could go on and on with lists of graces and miracles. All I can say is that I see the fruits, and I am positive that many Church officials see it too. And satan would never lead people to Christ, prayer, confession, the blessed sacrament, adoration, and to read scripture, to pray the rosary daily. He just simply would not do it.

Thanks for sharing.

One year to the date of when i asked the one woman i knew who was going there, to put in a petition for me, and when she asked for what - i told her she [Our Mother] would know, it came true.

ALL i wanted was faith...strong faith.

And then when i read the messages - this second time [cos i read them once b4 when i was a teen and altho they affected me some - my mom assured me Mary wasn't appearing there] - anyway reading them again - it hit me and i wept for days over my sins.
[Knowing how Mary Magdalene must have felt]
And my life was transformed. I could see my sins for what they were in their darkest corners within my soul.

I agree. Satan would never ever ever get me [or anyone] to submit to the Church, endeavor to NOT fail, pray the Rosary, go to confession like it means something, receive the Eucharist with shaking legs and all in all understand the font of graces Jesus installed in His Church for our earthly benefit.

IF it were satan he would have never shown me my sins... he would have never let me surrender from them.

I think if this is a farce - then satan has switched sides from his own.

isabella1 · Jan 21, 2009

"IF it were satan he would have never shown me my sins... he would have never let me surrender from them."

WA, this is quite a statement that I never thought about. How true it is.

I also know that the miracles I have been given, and witnessed can never be taken away from me, and no one can tell me that they did not occur. They are pure gifts from God!

thereselittleflower · Jan 22, 2009

WarriorAngel said:
EVERY SINGLE thing i have read about private revelations is that as long as the messages are moral and do not contradict the Church's magisterium - then the individual may believe in the private revelation until the Church says otherwise.

Well, you know what they say, one's information is only as good as their sources.Just what is it you have read?Where does it say what you claim?The Church teaches us to be skepticlal and not run after after apparitions and the supernatural. The Church offers us many approved apparitions, what need is there to run after those that have no approval from the Church which may even turn out to be demonic?Why take such a risk when there are so many that are approved?How very unwise to encourage people to believe in unapproved apparitions and their messages when the Church has not ruled they are authentic.

And how VERY unwise to encourage others to read and believe messages the Church has forbidden to even be give or published!To do so only compounds the disobedience of the seers and those who publish such messages which make on an accomplice to such evil, for that is what deliberate disobedience to the Church, which commands with the authority of God, is - evil.What deception must be at work among those who refuse to submit to the authority of the Bishop and the Church! And this deception is compounded by those who care nothing for the fact that in order for them to have access to such messages that such access is the result of rank disobedience to the Church, and instead of standing away from them, they instead help those rebels to the Church's authority by spreading the forbidden messages to others and so become their acomplices in their sin and evils deeds.

This is what is going on with Medjugorje and othe so-called apparitions - even those condemned by the Church!Why would anyone want to take such a stand that makes them an acomplice to another's evil?Yet such is what we see from Medjugorjites - and this further demonstrates the true character and nature of the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje!Does anything more need be said?One thing more may be helpful - the alleged apparition itself has openly encouraged diessent from the Bishop's authority, and has repeatedly said the Bishop is wrong and can be disobeyed! This is all well documented in the findings of the commissions held already.People!Mary NEVER says anything remotely like this!What further proof do people need?

IT would be absolutely absurd to try to do it the other way.

Hardly. Actually the opposite is true.

Many mystical Saints have had revelations - and thus it brought them to Sainthood.

This is not true in the least. Revelations do not bring anyone to Sainthood - in fact the saints did not want them because they were dangerous.This is what those who run after the spernatural fail to comprehend - the very real danger to their souls the supernatural can bring. They exercise no real caution when it comes to the supernatural - they may give a superficial appearance of caution, but real caution is thrown to the wind.They think instead it confers some great spiritual advancement, which could not be further from the truth, and do not realize that they are being enticed by the spiritual candy the enemy has strewn along their path.

Including the apparitions of Fatima and Lourdes. [AND yes they did test the Spirits in each account]

So long as the Saint's revelations didnt contradict the Church - they could believe in the messages. This is also very true of
Sr Faustina [who is a Saint now.]
St Joan of Arc.
St Catherine Emmerich
St Clair [who's heart when opened after death had a wooden crucifix in it] They cut it open because she spoke of the Lord placing His cross in her heart and she suffered.
etc etc etc

They became saints not because of their supernatural experiences, but because of how they lived.

The Church takes a very long time [sometimes hundreds of years] to discern a case.

Which is why no-one should rush ahead of the Church and proclaim something authentic when the Church has not.That is foolishness.

SO - in the meantime a Saint cannot very well likely dismiss the apparitions waiting for the Church - now can they?

Of course the can, especially when the Church says to stop such as in Medjugorje and other places.

St Pio had MANY detractors... MANY - even in the Church.
</p> </p>

And yet Padre Pio was perfectly obedient to the Church.

So long as they are moral - and pious - their fruits are obvious.

That is not true and this has been shared with you and others many times in the past.

Satan can mimic all these fruits and make one appear pius etc. But is would all be charade designed to entice and deceive those gullible enough to be unduly impressed so they neglect weightier things such as OBEDIENCE. ALL can be deceived by such if they take their eyes off the evidences that really matter.I will give one of the famous such cases, I believe it was Magdeline of the Cross who made a pact with the devil who gave here the appearance of sanctity and supernatural events- this deception fooled Bishops all the way up to the Vatican. It was when she was seriously ill and in danger of death she confessed and needed exorcism!Playing around with unapproved supernatural events is a dangerous pastime.

Thousands of Saints had revelations first - before the Church finally accepted them.

AND if God allows us many more years on earth - the Church could take that long to decide this case.

I highly doubt it given the communications between the Bishop and Vatican the hints that been dropped by both, and the very serious disciplinary actions the Vatican has persued, and is currently persuing, against the spiritual advisors of the "seers". The Vatican does not wait hundreds of years to deal with something causing schism which Medjugorje is causing with its "apparitions" that have advocated disobedience to the Church.

MEANTIME - a message from Heaven of this capacity and this magnitude of conversions and miracles cannot or should not be ignored while we sit and wait.

Message from heaven?Who says? The Church?Isn't a bit rash to declare something to be from heaven that the Church has repeatedly determined that there is no evidence that anything supernatural is taking place? Seems quite rash to me!ESPECIALLY since there is so much evidence that it false, and also because all the evidence Medjugorjites point to as proof can be couterfeited by the demonic. We have had several discussions about this in the past. A passage from the scriptures comes to minds:
Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil.

To those who allow this to change them and transform them - they will be rewarded with graces of a large proportion. At least I feel i was. God gave me more than i deserved. [Thank you Lord... for i am a sinner.]

And those who follow such a call only place themselves in danger of being deceived by opening themselves up to something the Church has not approved and especially something the Church has only spoken negatively about.God can use anything, even something the devil has a hand in, but that is no reason to pursue things the devil has a hand in. To suggest otherwise would be sheer foolishness and only fools dare tread where angels fear to go.

For those who want to wait - they have their equal share in waiting...

[/quote]

hmmmmmm as if that is a bad thing . . . . NOT!

Miracles of Medjugorje

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I close my eyes and see you smile

Steward of proportionality- I Cor 13:1, 1 Tim 3:15

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