Sex Before Marriage (confused)

Originally posted by Baptistgal
No, I think that what I'm trying to say is you are not married in God's eyes until the law in your country recognizes you as married.

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Now you're just making up stuff.  Please quote where the bible makes this claim?

Fooling around doesn't make you a bad person.
If that was the case, just about everyone would be a bad person whether they admitted it or not.

I think what marriage does (or is supposed to do) is establish a covenant between the two to be committed to each other for life. It is formally saying, "I choose you." That means that if you get pregnant, he's not going to take off because he chose to accept that responsibility when he chose you. It also means that, since he chose you for life, he has told you that he isn't going to look for, or suddenly find another girl. Marriage establishes you as a family. Granted, these days you have to wonder.

I think that you are right about the time period being necessary for it a realtionship to become a marriage through what is known as common law, Baptistgal. I haven't read up on the law but I think that in order for a relationship to become a common law marriage the following must be true (others who may know better please correct me if I am wrong):

1. You must have been living together for at least 5 (I've heard 7?) years
2. You must have held a joint checking or savings account for that period of time

The problem that I have with common law is that it seems impossible (at least nearly) for two people to live together that closely for that long, be in a serious relationship - a marriage level relationship - and not have sex. It has been my experience, with the people whom I know, that those involved in a serious relationship and live together have sex well before a period of 5 years passes. In light of this, just go to the courthouse and pay the money for the license. Even though I do not believe that is what makes you married - I do think that you should at least abide by the laws laid out by the government for the sake of appearing blameless before non-believers.

Originally posted by Hesmyall
Nobody said you were a "bad person".  And you say you "plan" on marrying when you have more money...yet you say you "are" married by "common law".  How can it be both?

A marriage license does not cost alot of money...weddings do.  I have known many people to get married (you know, the ring, and the license), and later down the road when they have saved up some money they have a nice wedding.

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Having been through this whole marriage thing, and all these same questions - I agree with you here, Hesmyall.  A marriage license is the cheapest route to a clear conscience concerning this topic.  Marriage was not the idea of men, it was the idea of God.  God planned for men and women to be together from the beginning, and they became married through knowing one another.  The only thing that has really changed throughout the course of history is the ordeal that leads up to the marriage. 

In the early history of Israel, there wasn't much of a ceremony, the man went into the tent, lay with the woman, they were married.  Later there were other things that their culture and law added.  Our law has added the marriage license. 

It is important that we follow through with all that God has told us.  He told us to be submissive to the government, I believe, not because the government could dictate what is sin and what is not, but because those who are not Christian and haven't studied the Bible much don't have that basis to judge what is right and wrong.  Rather they have the law.  If we are to appear blameless before them, and hope to lead them toward Christ through our actions, then we _NEED_ to follow and be obedient to the law and culture in which we find ourselves - as long as it doesn't go directly against the word of God, which in this case I don't believe that it does.

Sorry for the multiple posts - but I do think that "fooling around" is a sin and therefore something that we shouldn't do. It may not make you a bad person as far as the society in which we live in concerned, but it is certainly something that I do not believe that God approves of.

Caley, just to clarify, I did specifically say that that was what "I think" not what the Bible says. Though the reason I think it is because the Bible says that God instituted our government and told us to obey that government as long as it does not conflict with God's word.
So I was not just making things up, I was expressing my opinion based on principles found in the Bible.
If a common law marriage is valid than it is only a marriage after the 7 yr limit, like several of us have already posted.
JacqueB.....my question for you is still why wait? There has to be a reason besides the money for the license. If both are very sure this is the one than why go to all this trouble and hassle to not just go down and get married? It seems to me that it would be a whole lot easier to just go get a license and make it legal.

Well, one reason might be that some people don't like to perform a ceremony for a marriage which already has the paperwork in place, see... *sigh*

If I may attempt to summarize:
* JacqueB is a good person and God loves her.
* Some people would be more comfortable with things if she had a marriage certificate and/or a ceremony.
* This is a tricky issue, on which people can read the Bible and come to different answers.

I tend to lean in the direction of "go ahead and get the paperwork done, if possible".

Originally posted by Baptistgal
Caley, just to clarify, I did specifically say that that was what "I think" not what the Bible says. Though the reason I think it is because the Bible says that God instituted our government and told us to obey that government as long as it does not conflict with God's word.

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I don't believe the bible says that.

So I was not just making things up, I was expressing my opinion based on principles found in the Bible.
If a common law marriage is valid than it is only a marriage after the 7 yr limit, like several of us have already posted.

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However, JacqueB did say they were common law married, hence the reason for my question for her (which she never answered ).

JacqueB.....my question for you is still why wait? There has to be a reason besides the money for the license. If both are very sure this is the one than why go to all this trouble and hassle to not just go down and get married? It seems to me that it would be a whole lot easier to just go get a license and make it legal.

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I agree with you here.  It seems odd that they wouldn't just elope until they had a ceremony. 

[speculation]To be honest, it seems like she (or maybe her boyfriend [or maybe both of them]) has a fear of true commitment, so they prefer to live the life they are living so as to make it easier if it doesn't end up working out.[/speculation]

[speculation]To be honest, it seems like she (or maybe her boyfriend [or maybe both of them]) has a fear of true commitment, so they prefer to live the life they are living so as to make it easier if it doesn't end up working out.[/speculation]

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Lol. I don't think there is a vB code for "speculation". Your clever sarcasm has been noted.

Speaking on the topic of subjection to governing authorities, I have been looking through the Bible for verses that I believe speak on the subject and these is the foremost thus far:

Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.  Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.  For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:  for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.  Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.  For this cause ye pay tribute also; for they are ministers of God's service, attending continually upon this very thing.  Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

-- Romans 13:1-7

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And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, that they might catch him in talk. And when they were come, they say unto him, Teacher, we know that thou art true, and carest not for any one; for thou regardest not the person of men, but of a truth teachest the way of God: Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why make ye trial of me? bring me a denarius, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they said unto him, Caesar's. And Jesus said unto them, Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's. And they marvelled greatly at him.

- Mark 12:13-17

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I feel as if there's almost no need for discussion after the first verse from Romans 13.  It says to let every sould be in subjection to the higher powers, meaning that there are no exceptions.  This is where Baptistgal derived, I believe, what she said about ruling authorities. 

It is important to realize that there is such a thing as taking a concept to the logical extreme.  While the Bible does say that every soul is to be subject to ruling authority, it also says that he does not do the will of the Father in heaven will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 

This implicity tells us that we are to be subject to the ruling authorities as long as there is no violation of the commandments given us by God.

If we lived in Nazi Germany there would be certain things that we would not be obligated to obey as mandated by the government due to the fact that those mandates are contrary to the Word. 

Before I became a Christian I would have been all for the "do whatever you can to avoid getting the marriage license they don't have the right to make us buy them" spiel, and if it were up to me, that's the way that it would be.  When I became a Christian, however, I placed my self in subjection to the Word, to Christ, to God - and now it's not what I want, but what God wants.  He tells me in Romans to be subject to ruling authority - so I bought the license first. 

Once I've granted that there are exceptions, I try to allow for the possibility that different people will draw that line in different places.

Note that "every soul" means no people shouldn't do this - but it doesn't necessarily mean that there are no cases where you shouldn't do it, only that everyone should do it by default.

Note that "every soul" means no people shouldn't do this - but it doesn't necessarily mean that there are no cases where you shouldn't do it, only that everyone should do it by default. [/B]

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Yes exactly. Just like when the bible says that the man should be the head of the household; this is a set default, to help avoid confusion. Of course there will be cases when the woman is closer to God and can thus make better decisions that the man can regarding spiritual needs. In that case, the woman should be the spiritual head in my opinion.

We are married when the union is recognized by both God and state. God says that he puts people in authority, he establishes the government. He also tell us to submit to governing authorities. The state does not recognize a marriage until you are married.

Why scoot around it? Why not just get married if there is question to it? Anyone who fights for the "we're married in God's eyes" stance, just get over it and get married for real. If you can't wait to have sex, then its is better to marry than to burn. Don't try to justify things.

Here's the thing, 2 people can be ready to get married, and still not get married. My parents want my boyfriend and I to finish college before we get married, as I recall, honoring our parents is one of the commandments. This whole, get it over with thing doesn't always wash. Whether it be because of family concerns or financial concerns. My parents would be quite angry if I just hopped over to the courthouse and got married without them. I am their eldest daughter and they want a big wedding for me....it isn't always a black and white issue, and its incredibly igorant for some of you to say, because they don't immediatley get married they must be afraid of committment...I bet very few of you got married immediatley after deciding you wanted to spend the rest of your life with someone.

Well common law marriage is not the same as marriage. It may put you legally in a position to protect you but it is not the same as a marriage in the Bible where it is a covenant between two people. As you mentioned there is no covenant, no vows. Common law marriage is come about because living together before marriage has become an epedemic and it there to protect two people living together. It is a twisted form of marriage.

It is interesting to read how many people don't think that our sins bother God and that He understands and say everything is well. There is no Biblical support to this in any way shape or form. Just because people understand and you think it is ok, doesn't mean it is ok with God. We are saved from our sins by grace but that doesn't not give us a licence to stay in sin or continue to sin because we can.

Romans 6:1-7
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. "

Here's a question, people in the middle ages didn't have access to a priest, or minister to get married. They lived together, supported each other, fed each other, cared for each other, did all the things that the bible says married people have to do for one another. Are you all saying that they are going to burn in hell for not seeing a preacher, even though they were fulfilling all of the requirements God set for a marriage.

I'm sorry but I find it amazing how quick everyone is to judge a relationship between two people based on the fact that they are having sex before marriage. Is it so hard to believe that two people can be completely committed to one another, take care of one another, share their bodies with one another, without seeing a preacher about it. God designed sex to be shared between one man, and one woman. He calls us to bind to that person for life, to care for them. There are married people who do much less than that, so don't be so quick to judge those of us who haven't seen a preacher yet.

I haven't seen anyone of you define exactly what sin is.

Now if sin is disobediance to God then what is it that God has said to jacqueB personally about this issue?

Another question is this, "Why does God ask us to do or not do something?"

Looking at the sexual aspect here are some thoughts; 

We all agree that incest is wrong and that God has declared it to be wrong.  So then why was it okay between the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve?  Another thing that we would all agree upon is that God has said that a man should have one wife and vice a versa yet when King David was punished by the Lord for having the Husband of Bethsheba killed, within the Lord's statements was "....I have given you many wives".

Why is it that the Holy Spirit inspired the author to write "what is right for one may not be right for another."?

Why was God upset when the people of Israel asked for a King?  What did He say to this quest for a King?

Are any of you Prophets called of God that you may speak His word?

Why did Jesus say to the adulteress woman "they do not condemn you neither do I."?

If you cannot answer any of these questions with the Authority and full knowledge of Jesus Himself then you may only share your views with jaqueB and not say she is right or wrong.

jaqueB I hope you read this, I find you not guilty according to that which God has given to me.  But, for your own sake and concious get a piece of paper that says you're married.  And ask God as I have, to put it in the heart of you and your husband to be, what it is to be married and committed to one another til death do you part.  Trust no man and obey God.

Those of you who read this be careful of what you think or say of me for "whatever you have done to your brother, you have done it to me".

Yesterday at 10:48 PM JacqueB said this in Post #76

I STRONGLY disagree! Sometimes money just isn't available for a "real" wedding so common law marriage is a for the time situation...

As for what God thinks, I think that people need to deal with this on their own terms... if they work it out with him, then it's ok... it's not for others to judge!

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Very little money is needed for a 'real' wedding.  Go down to the court house and get married.  Then when you have enough money to celebrate it then get 're-married,' but atleast for the time being you would be fullfiling what Gods Word has asked.  The no money thing is just an excuse.  Are you saying that you would rather have a twisted form of a marriage rather than a real one?

I agree that God is the only judge.  But, others can make you aware of what you are doing is not what the Bible says we are to do.  Do you think that you can bargin with God?  Do you think that God will say that 'well your situation is different and so I will over look your sin.'?  God is a holy and righteous God, sin of any kind is not going to be over looked by Him.  On judgement day before Him, the excuse about not having enough money will not work.  When we stand before God there will be not 'buts' that will work.

I am sorry for my strong comments if they have offended you, but these excuses do not work.  Money is the root of much (all) evil, either you have too much and it causes you to sin or you don't have enough and you use it as an excuse to sin. 

May God bless you and open your eyes to the truth.

Today at 02:06 AM JillLars said this in Post #77

Here's a question, people in the middle ages didn't have access to a priest, or minister to get married. They lived together, supported each other, fed each other, cared for each other, did all the things that the bible says married people have to do for one another. Are you all saying that they are going to burn in hell for not seeing a preacher, even though they were fulfilling all of the requirements God set for a marriage.

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That is for God to judge not us.  Are you saying that you don't have a priest or minsiter or justice of the peace to marry you?  You are not living in the middle ages.  Have you ever read much about the middle ages?  Or what about even the old testiment?  People would walk for days to get to the temple in the Old Testement to see the priest and offer sacrifices.  If it was important to them, they made it happen.  As far as buring in hell?  Who said that living with someone and having sex before marriage is going to leave you buring in hell?  Even using your example above, and in the extreme situation where it was seemingly impossible to see a priest to get married, that is in Gods hand.  But you are not in that situation.

I'm sorry but I find it amazing how quick everyone is to judge a relationship between two people based on the fact that they are having sex before marriage. Is it so hard to believe that two people can be completely committed to one another, take care of one another, share their bodies with one another, without seeing a preacher about it. God designed sex to be shared between one man, and one woman. He calls us to bind to that person for life, to care for them. There are married people who do much less than that, so don't be so quick to judge those of us who haven't seen a preacher yet.

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I also find it amazing how some people can throw parts of the Bible out because they feel so in love with someone else that it can't be wrong.  God does not change, He doesn't adjust His Word for each of our situations.  The Word of God is steadfast and true forever.  God designed everything, but man has also take just about everything that God has made and twisted in some way shape or form.  Living together without being married it a twisted form of what God designed for us.