Are we Saints?

Divine Revelation is progressive. "But the path of the just is as a shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day" (Proverbs 4:18). There is no going back, but always a going forward to something more glorious.

-GEORGE B. FLETCHER

HandmaidenOfGod said:

Zeena,

As Orthodox Christians we do not believe in the OSAS theory; we believe we are still working out our salvation.

Click to expand...

And this is what I orignally construde as off topic. To which I appologise, after seeing your explaination.

HandmaidenOfGod said:

I wasn't derailing your thread. I was explaining the Orthodox theory of salvation, and how we view who Saints are. My post was on topic.

Click to expand...

For although theosis is not the title of this thread, I can see how it can be interwoven now, just as justification can, ect..

HandmaidenOfGod said:

For as St. Paul writes in his letter to the Philippians in chapter 2:12-18:

Click to expand...

HandmaidenOfGod said:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain. Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. For the same reason you also be glad and rejoice with me." (Emphasis added)

As Orthodox Christians we believe that although we have faith in Christ, we must continue to work and strive to grow in faith, and to follow Christ's commandments.

Click to expand...

In response to the bolded text in the above quote:

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Psalm 127:1
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

I too have faith in Christ, except, it is faith in Christ alone. I've given up depending/relying on myself for quite some time now. HE is the One Living in me who will work out my salvation, as I abide in Him. By Grace, through Faith [the Faith of God, Alive and active within me] am I saved!

Ergo, it is an active rest, for I am actively applying my faith [the measure given unto me from God, as He has given every man], just as Abraham did when he offered up Isaac, saying "God is able also, to raise him from the dead." Abraham believed he was justified with God, and knew that because he was righteous in God's eyes that the Lord would do him no harm. Have you ever thought WHY Job was appauled at the state he was in? It was because he knew he too was justified, and ergo untouchable by the wrath of God. But we both know, it was not in wrath that God allowed the devil to touch Job's posessions, for we can now see the end from the beginning

Job 1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:6
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Faith, believing Jesus is Living in and through me to the Glory of God.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Faith, believing the promises of God to something sure to grasp!

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Hebrews 6:17-20
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

HandmaidenOfGod said:

This process, known as "theosis" in the Orthodox Church, is what Paul describes above. We are working to become "blameless and harmless children of God."For Christ became man, that man may become like Christ.

Click to expand...

That's not how I understood the concept of theosis upon investigating your doctrines;

The statement by St. Athanasius of Alexandria, "The Son of God became man, that we might become God", indicates the concept beautifully. II Peter 1:4 says that we have become " . . . partakers of divine nature." Athanasius amplifies the meaning of this verse when he says theosis is "becoming by grace what God is by nature" (De Incarnatione, I). What would otherwise seem absurd, that fallen, sinful man may become holy as God is holy, has been made possible through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate. Naturally, the crucial Christian assertion, that God is One, sets an absolute limit on the meaning of theosis - it is not possible for any created being to become, ontologically, God or even another god.
Through theoria, the knowledge of God in Jesus Christ, human beings come to know and experience what it means to be fully human (the created image of God); through their communion with Jesus Christ God shares Himself with the human race, in order to conform them to all that God is in knowledge, righteousness and holiness. Theosis also asserts the complete restoration of all people (and of the entire creation), in principle. This is built upon the understanding of the atonement put forward by Irenaeus of Lyons, called "recapitulation."

For many fathers, theosis goes beyond simply restoring people to their state before the Fall of Adam and Eve, teaching that because Christ united the human and divine natures in his person, it is now possible for someone to experience closer fellowship with God than Adam and Eve initially experienced in the Garden of Eden, and that people can become more like God than Adam and Eve were at that time. Some Orthodox theologians go so far as to say that Jesus would have become incarnate for this reason alone, even if Adam and Eve had never sinned.

All of humanity is fully restored to the full potential of humanity because the Son of God took to Himself a human nature to be born of a woman, and takes to Himself also the sufferings due to sin (yet is not Himself a sinful man, and is God unchanged in His being). In Christ, the two natures of God and human are not two persons but one; thus, a union is effected in Christ, between all of humanity and God. So, the holy God and sinful humanity are reconciled in principle, in the one sinless man, Jesus Christ. (See Jesus's prayer as recorded in John 17.)

Click to expand...

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theosis

And I believe I can agree with all the above, but on the actual process of sanctification would I beg to differ;

Hebrews 2:11-12
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

And I You, Jesus!

This reconciliation is made actual through the struggle (podvig in Russian) to conform to the image of Christ. Without the struggle, the praxis, there is no real faith; faith leads to action, without which it is dead. One must unite will, thought and action to God's will, His thoughts and His actions. A person must fashion his life to be a mirror, a true likeness of God. More than that, since God and humanity are more than a similarity in Christ but rather a true union, Christians' lives are more than mere imitation and are rather a union with the life of God Himself: so that, the one who is working out salvation, is united with God working within the penitent both to will and to do that which pleases God. Gregory Palamas affirmed the possibility of humanity's union with God in His energies, while also affirming that because of God's transcendence and utter otherness, it is impossible for any person or other creature to know or to be united with God's essence. Yet through faith we can attain phronema, an understanding of the faith of the Church.

The journey towards theosis includes many forms of praxis. Living in the community of the church and partaking regularly of the sacraments, and especially the Eucharist, is taken for granted. Also important is cultivating "prayer of the heart", and prayer that never ceases, as Paul exhorts the Thessalonians (1 and 2). This unceasing prayer of the heart is a dominant theme in the writings of the Fathers, especially in those collected in the Philokalia.

Click to expand...

Same source.

I am not the Saviour, but He Lives in me, and HE does and will continue to effect the conformity of my will to His Will by the outpouring of His Spirit, transforming my mind. I need not strive to enter in to the narrow gate, I need not strive to conform myself to Him, for the transformation is complete already in my spirit, and as I abide in Him, and Him in I [via the renewing of my mind, through the Word of Scripture and the Testimony of the Holy Spirit] the walls I've built up in my flesh come crumbling down. And Christ is thus magnified in my body, His Temple.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Matthew 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

He has employed various measures to break us of our flesh. Marriage is a biggie Work, striving in this world to make ends meet, child-rearing, and the list goes on until death. Because as my [many] years as unregenerate I was indeed conformed to the image of this world;

Ezekiel 26:9
And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

Ezekiel 26:10
By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.

Ezekiel 26:12
And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Click to expand...

Ezekiel 36:33
Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

Click to expand...

Isaiah 60:10
And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee.

Isaiah 60:18
Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

Isaiah 62:5-7
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Isaiah 49:16
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

Isaiah 54:12
And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

Click to expand...

pgp_protector said:

LOL

I saw the invite, and quoted the post, then saw the date of the OP

So I was wondering who rezzed the thread

Click to expand...

John 11:43
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

TA DA!

HandmaidenOfGod said:

In the Orthodox Church, the people we revere as Saints have finished the race, are in heaven, and have led holy lives. They are role models for us, and an example as to how we should live.

Click to expand...

A role model is indicative of an attempt to live the Christian Life, which is not possible for us to do. There's only One who ever did, Jesus!

Zechariah 4:6-7
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

Psalm 127:1
Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

HandmaidenOfGod said:

It would be wrong of us who are still on earth, who are still working out our salvation, to count ourselves amongst them. For we do not know what the future holds for each of us. Some may choose to fall away and return, some may apostise, never to return to the true faith.

Click to expand...

What is wrong is to exchange the Glory of the Immortal God for the image of men..

Romans 1:16-23
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

http://gracefellowshipintl.com/solomonfram.htm
Click ENGLISH [if that is your preferred language]

HandmaidenOfGod said:

Only God knows who is and who isn't a saint. Anyone who thinks they know the mind of God is fooling themselves.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 2:6-16
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Amos 8:14
They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

HandmaidenOfGod said:

Zeena,

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. Your post and your PM to me indicates you are anxious for an answer. I wasn't feeling well yesterday, and so I wasn't posting a lot.

Click to expand...

I'm so thankful to God that you are feeling better!

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

HandmaidenOfGod said:

HandmaidenOfGod said:

Also, in regards to humility and humbleness, you had inferred that shame was involved with these traits.

Click to expand...

In post #20 of this thread you posted the following regarding humbleness and shame:

Click to expand...

HandmaidenOfGod said:

icxn said:

A Saint will never admit that he is such. Humility doesn't let him.

Click to expand...

icxn said:

I remember once we were speaking about humiliation and one of the great lights of Gaza, hearing us say, "The nearer a man is to God the more he sees himself to be a sinner,"

Click to expand...

This is also testified in scripture when the Patriarchs and some of the Prophets saw God.

Zeena said:

Humility does not equal humblness..

Click to expand...

Zeena said:

Humility is more in line with shame..
And Christ SCORNED that shame =P

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Wowzers, that's an old post..ok, umm..

I believe I was referrring to the fact [as is evident] in the further expansion of the quote that I was referring to humiliation, which was mentioned.

HandmaidenOfGod said:

This is not true. Webster's dictionary defines humility as the following:

Click to expand...

HandmaidenOfGod said:

Humility
Hu*mil"i*ty\, n.; pl. Humilities. [OE. humilite, OF. humilit['e], humelit['e], F. humilit['e], fr. L. humiliatis. See Humble.]

1. The state or quality of being humble; freedom from pride and arrogance; lowliness of mind; a modest estimate of one's own worth; a sense of one's own unworthiness through imperfection and sinfulness; self-abasement; humbleness.

Click to expand...

But it defines humiliation thus;

Main Entry: hu·mil·i·ate Pronunciation: \hyü-ˈmi-lē-ˌāt, yü-\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): hu·mil·i·at·ed; hu·mil·i·at·ing Etymology: Late Latin humiliatus, past participle of humiliare, from Latin humilis low — more at humble Date: circa 1534 : to reduce to a lower position in one's own eyes or others' eyes :mortify

------------

Main Entry: mor·ti·fy Pronunciation: \ˈmȯr-tə-ˌfī\ Function: verb Inflected Form(s): mor·ti·fied; mor·ti·fy·ing Etymology: Middle English mortifien, from Anglo-French mortifier, from Late Latin mortificare, from Latin mort-, mors Date: 14th century transitive verb
1obsolete : to destroy the strength, vitality, or functioning of
2: to subdue or deaden (as the body or bodily appetites) especially by abstinence or self-inflicted pain or discomfort
3: to subject to severe and vexing embarrassment : shame

While I could easily concur with the first two definitions as given in the above under mortify: I do not, and am unwilling, to concur with the third as a process of humility which the Lord institutes, as per Scripture;

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

For Jesus never despised the Will of His Father, but He did despise the shame associated with the humiliation. As is indicative under the third entry of mortify [JOKING-lol]

3: to subject to severe and vexing embarrassment : shame

Click to expand...

HandmaidenOfGod said:

Serving the Lord with all humility of mind. --Acts xx. 19.

2. An act of submission or courtesy.

With these humilities they satisfied the young king. --Sir J. Davies.

Syn: Lowliness; humbleness; meekness; modesty; diffidence.

Usage: Humility, Modesty, Diffidence. Diffidence is a distrust of our powers, combined with a fear lest our failure should be censured, since a dread of failure unconnected with a dread of censure is not usually called diffidence. It may be carried too far, and is not always, like modesty and humility, a virtue. Modesty, without supposing self-distrust, implies an unwillingness to put ourselves forward, and an absence of all over-confidence in our own powers. Humility consists in rating our claims low, in being willing to waive our rights, and take a lower place than might be our due. It does not require of us to underrate ourselves.

Humbleness
Hum"ble*ness\, n. The quality of being humble; humility; meekness.

So you see, in both definitions for both words, shame is not included. In the Christian sense, it is recognizing He who is greater than you, and that it is because of Him and Him alone that you are even able to breathe.

Click to expand...

AMEN!

And I'm not putting myself forward, I am putting Jesus forward, Who is my Life

HandmaidenOfGod said:

A couple years ago a popular Contemporary Christian tune came out by Mercy Me called "I Can Only Imagine." The first line says "I can only imagine what it will be like, when I walk by your side." Our finite minds cannot even begin to imagine what His glory is like, nevermind being worthy to "walk by his side." It's by His grace and love alone that we are even able to be followers of Him.

Click to expand...

HandmaidenOfGod said:

Let us never forget this.

Click to expand...

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Matthew 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Yea, that last post is for all you Saints who think you can follow Jesus!

1 Corinthians 4:7 (King James Version)
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?


He's THE class act, man!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvsg2pQw4ZY

drstevej said:

Just because I died some of my hair clear!

Click to expand...

Matthew 10:30
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Rick Otto said:

I don't have anything to add (or subtract, or dye clear), I just wanted to be on Zeena's first thread.

Zeena rocks.

Click to expand...

Praise God!

Jesus Lives!!!